Talk:Zygmunt Bauman

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"Zygmunt Bauman is a British sociologist of Polish-Jewish descent" is misleading, since it suggests that his "main" nationality was British and only some of his distant relatives were Polish or Jewish, which is obviously not true. He is a "British" sociologist only in the same way as Einstein was an "American" sciencist or Alfred Tarski an "American" logician. I think that "Polish sociologist of Jewish descent" would be much better, because it is already contained in the article that he worked mainly in the UK. --83.26.81.60 11:46, 4 August 2005 [signature added, --Thorsten1 11:18, 4 August 2005 (UTC)]

This is a tricky issue indeed, and I thought about it quite long when I was creating the stub. In the end, I settled for "British" as the main attribute, because Bauman first came to worldwide attention as a British author and is not generally noted for his Polish output - unlike Einstein, who already was a global celebrity when he settled in the USA. Also, Bauman seems to have made a home in the UK, much more than Einstein ever did in the USA: He never accepted any of the prestigious positions offered to him by American universities, neither did he return to Poland.

The label "Jewish" is another problematic issue. To the best of my knowledge, neither is Bauman a practising Jew, nor were his parents; and had it not been for the "anti-Zionist" campaign against inconvenient intellectuals in 1968, his Jewish background may never have gotten much attention. He never wrote about "Jewish" topics, either, before "Modernity and the Holocaust" - which he wrote with the declared goal of removing the Jewish aura from the topic.

This shows that Bauman, doing his own writings credit, defies easy ethnic categorisation. My description in the first sentence is probably not the worst, but not the best, either. So feel free to try out other versions to your heart's content. Anyhow, thanks for bringing this article back to my attention...

On a formal note, please sign your contributions on talk pages with four tildes (~~~~) to insert a signature and an automatic timestamp. This is helpful even if you are not a logged in user. --Thorsten1 11:18, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

" inconvenient intellectuals in 1968, his Jewish background may never have gotten much attention. He never wrote about "Jewish" topics, either, before "Modernity and the Holocaust" - which he wrote with the declared goal of removing the Jewish aura from the topic."

I am afraid Thorsten that his jewish background did receive attention both from him and his friends in Stalinist times before 1968 http://abcnet.com.pl/pl/artykul_zas.php?art_id=112&w=p&token= Molobo

No need to be afraid, Molobo. When I said that his Jewish background didn't get much attention I was obviously talking about the scholarly reception from fellow sociologists and the general public, and not about his friends or his wife, a Warsaw Ghetto survivor. But even so, if you'd care to actually read the source you cite, you might discover that it supports my argument rather than yours. Take the following sentence, for example: "Od czasu rozpoczęcia się kampanii antysemickiej coś się zmieniło w moim widzeniu ludzi. Dawniej rozróżniałam znajomych i przyjaciół według cech charakteru, poziomu intelektu, walorów towarzyskich. Jedni byli mądrzejsi, inni mniej mądrzy, jedni nieco nudnawi, inni dowcipni. Byli zdolni i niezbyt zdolni, zadowoleni z życia i ponuracy. Teraz zmieniło się nagle główne kryterium podziału. Jak za okupacji, byli Polacy "czystej krwi" i byli Żydzi." ("After the beginning of the anti-Semitic campaign, something changed in my perception of people. Before, I had categorised acquaintances and friends according to their character, intellectual level and social skills. Some were wiser, some less so; some were a bit dull, others were witty. There were talented and less talented ones, some were happy with their lives, others were morose. Now, the main criterion suddenly changed. Just like under the [German] occupation, there were 'pure-blooded' Poles and there were Jews.") This clearly shows that even for Janina Bauman, the Holocaust survivor, their Jewish ethnicity was not an important issue before the onset of anti-Semitic purges. --Thorsten1 22:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

If you would read the link, you would see that it was even before power conflict in 1968:

Uzasadnieniem nagłej dymisji było podejrzane zachowanie jego ojca - rzekomo utrzymywał kontakty z ambasadą izraelską.

Zdesperowany Zygmunt pobiegł natychmiast do ojca i zażądał wyjaśnień. Ojciec nie myślał zaprzeczać: rzeczywiście był dwukrotnie w ambasadzie, żeby dowiedzieć się o możliwości emigracji. To był dla Zygmunta drugi tego dnia cios. Nie godził się z syjonizmem, bolało go, że ojciec myśli o emigracji do Izraela, a także - może najbardziej - to, że mu nigdy o tym nie powiedział. Dotknięty do żywego, wypomniał to ojcu w ostrych słowach, po czym przestał się do niego odzywać. [...]

So as you see his Jewish background played a role in his life before 1968 --Molobo 19:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

First off, if you quote Polish sources, you might want to include a translation for the benefit of non-Polish speaking Wikipedians. So here's an English version: "His sudden discharge was justified with his father's suspicious behaviour - allegedly, he had contacts with the Israeli embassy. Desperate, Zygmunt immediately ran to his father und demanded an explanation. His father did not even think about denying: In fact, he had been to the embassy twice to ask about the possibility of emigration. This was the second blow for Zygmunt that day. He was against Zionism, it hurt him that his father thought of emigrating to Israel, and - maybe most of all - that he had never told him about it. [...]"

"If you would read the link, [...]". You see, I happen to own the book the excerpt is from, and in fact I have read it. My judgment of things does not generally hinge on random Google finds. However, I fail to see what it is that you want to demonstrate with the anecdote above. If anything, it just proves my point, namely that Bauman himself did not attach much importance to his Jewish background. "as you see his Jewish background played a role in his life before 1968". Certainly, but then nobody implied otherwise. His superior officers' opinions about his father are, in my view, rather immaterial to the article, though. My point was that his Jewish identity did not play any significant role in his scholarly work and reception, both in Poland and internationally. I don't see anything in your posts that would disprove this, neither do I see any point in trying. ---Thorsten1 18:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Bauman in WW2 and stalinist period 2 About Identity 3 Editing the section on Work 4 Someone please simplify "Bauman's Postmodernity" section 5 Clearup and simplification

[edit] Bauman in WW2 and stalinist period

Thorsten could you expand info on him in that period ? Wasn't he attending a marxists course in Moscow  ? Guardian says he was a Red Army officer at the time.He also served in counterintelligence(that fought opposition to communist rule) in Stalinist Poland IIRC. --Molobo 14:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC) He also educated the later dictator of Poland Wojciech Jaruzelski--Molobo 14:14, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Molobo, rest assured that I will expand on this (and more) as soon as I finally find some time for it. But please do not expect me to reveal (or accept) that Bauman, as Jaruzelski's one-time instructor, was the mastermind behind martial law in Poland... ;) --Thorsten1 22:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I am simply interested why Guardian lists him as Red Army officer, what was his rank and where did he served and what was his role in establishing communist regime in Poland --Molobo 19:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment. My reply to the above has been repeatedly deleted by Molobo, who claimed that it constitutes a "personal attack". I restored my post and asked him not to delete other people's posts, but to file a proper arbitration case against me if he felt offended. Instead, he chose to delete this, too, this time claiming that I had commented on his "personal life"; shortly afterwards, he denounced me as saying that he, Molobo, was "worst then [sic] communist propaganda". I left a note on his talk page, in which I asked him once again to either formally complain about me, or to stop deleting my posts and denouncing me by misrepresenting my statements. As was to be expected, he deleted this note, too, again claiming that I was talking about his "personal life or person".

I agree with Molobo on one point, namely that this issue is irrelevant to the article Zygmunt Bauman - this was, in fact, my very own argument in first of my three posts deleted by Molobo. That is why I refuse to take part in time-consuming infantile reverting games, and will not restore my previous posts this time. For the record, they remain available in the revision history. If anyone cares enough (which I doubt) they can check my reply to the above and judge for themselves whether or not I am guilty of any personal attacks against Molobo. Of course, I remain prepared to answer for anything I wrote. --Thorsten1 19:00, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Zygmunt Bauman, according to his wife published memories, was expelled from the army because his father applied for a visa to go to Israel. What it means that his father was not a “ practicing Jew”.

Bauman went from Poland to Israel were he lived four years.

Many of Bauman’s writing before Modernity and Holocaust refers to the modern Jewish condition. In a great extend his first elaboration on modernity and the fear of ambiguity have the Jewish condition as the main empirical source.

[edit] About Identity

I'm just wondering if, in light of Zygmunt Bauman's own discussion on Identity in the book, whether it is right to include such a clear national identity for him in the page. He discusses at length his own deliberations about his identity and concludes that he will not disclose fully his beliefs about it, and that it is almost of minor importance - so maybe the opening to the article should reflect this and refer more he his identity as a sociologist, and if need be to his sociology being in the british tradition?

Acidsaturation 14:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

To expand with this new information about his role in Communist Security Service.[1]--Molobo 13:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The Ozon magazine made a claim based upon information that it said was obtained from the IPN, which has access to the archives of the Polish communist security services. Until IPN publishes its findings, Ozon's allegation can not be treated as anything more than a claim. Well they published clear pictures of his documents in Security service and Bauman acknowledged that information as true. --Molobo 14:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In interviews Bauman has said he gives little detail of his own life, because it would be from such a biased perspective. 82.21.150.24 00:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing the section on Work

I've expanded the section on Bauman's actual work and theories, becuase I thought they were rather under-elaborated relative the pretty comprehensive biography. I've attempted to get all the most important bits in there, and given his 'postmodernism' a separate little section because it's become a bit of a bogey word of late.

Feel free to chop and change.

[edit] Someone please simplify "Bauman's Postmodernity" section

It's written like it was taken directly out of some random book by some random post modern author. What I mean to say is: it's written in an unnecessaraly complicated way. I find it tough to read that, specially considering english is not my mother language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.99.126 (talk) 18:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clearup and simplification

In response to the above criticism (which, frankly, was quite justified - and I think I must take the blame for some of it!) I've tried to re-write Bauman's 'work' section more clearly and chronologically. I've still got what I replaced saved if anyone's got problems with the new version. The new bit doesn't talk at all about Bauman's moral theory as the old on did, so I may try to add a section on that (it's one of the more complex aspects of his thought, so it might get a bit technical). There probably needs to be a bit more on consumerism too, which I'll endeavor to add.

PS. Re. The whole 'Bauman in the secret police' controversy: is it necessary to have such lengthy references to it? It all seems rather nebulous to me, but maybe I'm wrong... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.124.65 (talk) 14:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)