Talk:Zune/Archive 3

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Contents

Criticism of the name "Zune"

That whole section, why does it matter to me, the common reader? That section gives absolutely nothing to the article other than someone trying to find criticism. Those two sources, perhaps the Infoworld article, but not the SND article, are totally respectable. Either way, I think it's honestly a stupid section that could rather be expanded on criticism of the actual product, not an obscure reference to a similarity in a foreign language. Instead, it would be better to find criticism on how it doesn't attempt to bridge music networks or something. --MPD01605 (T / C) 02:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I find the criticisms of the name to be pretty silly (and irrelevant) as well. And we certainly shouldn't have to dig for criticism, especially regarding the 3-days or 3-plays rule, which has ruffled a lot of people's feathers. BJ Nemeth 15:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I went into a little detail regarding the Wi-Fi song sharing feature and the fact that it can not be used as an external Hard Drive. At this point, the DRM, lack of external hard drive usage and the Wi-Fi seem to be the only relevant criticisms regarding the player. I don't see how the licensing deal effects how the Zune operates. TheSniperZERO 16:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The licensing deal with Universal is definitely relevant, because this article is about the entire Zune ecosystem. Once we break this article up into multiple articles (it's inevitable), it should be incorporated into the general Zune article, rather than the article about this first generation Zune product. 68.218.103.10 19:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Relevant to the 'Zune Ecosystem'? Yes. But, I don't understand how the licensing deal falls under the criticism category. Licensing deals are not uncommon. All we know about it is that they are paying money, yet a downside is not listed or spoken about. How is it a good or bad thing?70.18.46.234 20:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be wise on my part to point out that when I posted this section, the title of the Criticism section was "Criticism of the name "Zune"", not just "Criticism", and only talked about the far-flung coincidence that it sounded like a naughty word in Hebrew. That's what I was griping about. But the section has expanded (fortunately), and the part about the naming criticism still remains. If there's no objection, I'm going to remove those parts since they are barely sourced and IMHO, quite irrelevant. --MPD01605 (T / C) 21:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the name criticism is so minor that it doesn't deserve mention in this article. If the Zune succeeds for the most part, but fails in certain foreign markets, and legitimate analysts cite this as a possible reason, then the name criticism becomes relevant. BJ Nemeth 01:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

HEY!!!: How is it possible to have a section called "Criticism",.. without a single citation of a "critic" ... criticizing the zune?!! I added one such citation, and now it's been deleted?? If you guys really fancy yourselves as the Wikicops,.. (you know who you are... check for cornflakes crumbs on you pajama's at 2:30pm)... how is this not a topic of hot debate?

David Pouge of the New York Times is a well-known technology critic and has been cited a few times in the article.TheSniperZERO 01:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The licensing deal is relevant because it represents a new direction for the deals between content companies (Universal) and hardware/software companies (Microsoft). This is a landmark deal that implies that content companies are owed a piece of hardware sales. By the same logic, this "tax" should be also be applied to TVs, radios, computers, cellphones, and anything else that plays music or videos. There have already been several articles written about this deal in a negative way (which makes it "Criticism"), and when I have the time, I'll add them as sources. BJ Nemeth 01:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Possibly biased and full of error

here is the paragrah I speak of...

"System requirements (1.5GHZ processor, WinXP SP2 only, 64MB VRam) cannot be used without service paks or on Windows 2000. Software needs to connect to Zune market place during installation, does not play well with antivirus software. AntiSpyware programs are very problematic, zune installation can take multiple attempts before successful loading, system needs to be restarted after and occasionally during installation. Does not function properly on Vista Beta2, saying you must connect to MS update server for device drivers. Syncing software works with device, but is prone to crashing when device not recognised by windows plug and play. Test Systems: Desktop ( 2.93GHZ Core2Duo "conroe", 2048MB RAM, nVidia quadro FX 256MB graphics card, WindowsXP SP2/Vista Beta2 and Notebook (2.0GHZ Core2Duo "merom", 2048MB RAM, nVidia GoForce 128MB , Windows XP SP2)."

First of all this article sounds biased. I so far can not find the system requirements for the Zune, but doubt that it is, "1.5GHZ processor, WinXP SP2 only, 64MB VRam." As microsofts next OS Vista only needs a 800mrz processor, and most games still dont need more than 1.5ghrz. Many people disaprove of Microsft and this seams to read that way, reasons why I dont just delete it are one, it may be true, and two I am, persay, not the best person in the world at grammer. Just looking it over, and thinking of it as if all the facts were correct; it is full of gramatic and spelling erros. I will leave everyone else to decide what you wnat to do with it, because I am not knowlageable to know if it right or wrong my self.

Thnaks everyone!—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikipedi (talk • contribs)

Request for protection

Due to the recent vandalism, I think that this page deserves to be protected from the continuous of vandals.Samsoncity 15:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


I don't know if you guys realize it or not, but it is STILL extremely Biased.


Video Codecs

Recent reviews from sites, like Engadget, indicate that the Zune does NOT, in fact, accept DivX/XviD or H.264 codecs and that the software transcodes video from whichever format you're using into WMV (@320x240). http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/15/zune-review/ Kakomu 22:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV in Criticism section

I added numerous requests for citations in the criticism sections. Who is making these criticisms? I removed one altogether that stated that even though the Zune has wireless capabilities, it cannot arbitrarily download music from hot-spots (a technological claim that doesn't even make sense). Criticisms should only be listed if they are accompanied by reputable citations. It seems as though an iPod fan has simply vented his frustrations in the Criticism section. I also removed a remark about the Zune not being compatible with Windows Vista even though Vista had been released to corporate customers prior to the Zune's release. This statement is undeniably false (Vista: late November (i.e. not yet released) ; Zune: November 14).

I think I may compile some links to substantiate the claims that have been made, as I've seen them on more than a few mainstream sites. Though I'm curious as to why this section is tagged NPOV. Is your contention that all criticism is inherently biased, or are you okay with removing the tag(s) once the citations have been added?
Additionally, it has been reported that the Zune doesn't work with Vista, and although it hasn't been released yet to volume license customers, it isn't unreasonable to believe that a fix may not be available in the next two weeks. Perhaps more importantly though, it does not work with the current beta iterations of Vista. The release date of software does not indicate whether or not the software itself exists. Kevin 07:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Considering that all software that runs on Windows XP runs also on Windows Vista by default (most of them is running, who doesn't run is an exception), I believe that it is indeed very relevant to mention the incompabibility. Marian 17 Nov 2006
As of December 19, 2006 Vista is now officially supported; I've update the article to reflect this.Simxp 12:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The criticism regarding the WiFi and the talk about the lack of an external HD capability both been given citations. They shouldn't be viewed as 'vandalism from an iPod fan'. It might look that way when comparing the 2 brands. They appear to be solid criticisms. TheSniperZERO 01:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I went ahead and decided to substantiate everything, to satiate anyone concerned about iPod fanatics floating false information about. I also cleaned up some of the phrasing, and removed the NPOV and weasel tags, as everything in that section is now substantiated. Kevin 07:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've never commented before, so excuse me if I do this wrong--but I think there is a large imbalance of citations in the criticism section (citations 3-25 out of 29). For an informational article, less weight should be put on an informational article. The iPod article has citations 11-33 out of 73 that are criticisms; less than half of all citations are used for criticisms, and furthermore, there are only a few double citations for each point, while there are many points with 4 citations--overkill, in my opinion.WasAPasserBy 04:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is supposed to be informative, correct? Though the criticisms are valid, shouldn't there be some opinion for the Zune under a different section?Two articles at least under makeyougohmm.com are in favor of, and include valid arguments for the Zune. Some info can be drawn from these, and it could help the NPOV. Rochelle CMN 16:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with having a criticism section; it is definitely needed for a topic like this. However having quadruple citations just seems to scream bias.WasAPasserBy 02:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


Use-as-a-hard-drive hack

On further consideration, I'm removing:

(People unassociated with Microsoft have published an unsanctioned modification of the Windows OS that appears to allow the current version of Zune to operate as an external hard drive:

Here's why. The context is a criticism of Zune for lacking an obvious feature that virtually all competitive MP3 players have.

The statement... originally made in a stronger form... says that it is possible, with a fairly simple Windows hack (a Registry edit) to make the Zune function as an external hard drive. As an aside, without being privy to Microsoft's internal decision making, we have no way of knowing whether this is what it seems to be. On the face of it, the publishers of the hack presume that everything is what it appears to be: make the Registry edit and your Zune will function reliably as an external drive. But there's no way of knowing whether everything is what it appears to be. Perhaps the Zune drive will wear out or fail or cause corruption of music files if used in this way. Perhaps some Zune drives have firmware revisions on which this works properly and others don't. But that's not the point.

The point is, in context, this hack is presented as an answer to a criticism. But it is not a valid answer. If product A, when installed and configured as specified by the manufacturer, without modification, cannot perform function B, it is irrelevant that someone knows a possible way to modify product A to enable it to do B.

If a car is criticized for taking 11.6 seconds to go from 0 to 60 mph, it is not an answer to say that you can make it go 0 to 60 in 9.2 seconds by rechipping the engine. If a Toyota Prius is criticized because it is not a "plug-in hybrid"--there is no way to charge the traction battery from house current--it is not an answer to say that numerous hobbyists have found ways to do so.

To say the Zune can be used as a hard drive because you can modify Windows to make it do this reminds me of the old joke:

"What's green, hangs on the wall, and whistles?"

"I give up."

"A red herring."

"But, it isn't green."

"So? You could paint it green."

"But it doesn't hang on the wall."

"What? There's a law says you can't hang it on the wall?"

"But it doesn't whistle."

"Nu, so it doesn't whistle."

Dpbsmith (talk) 19:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

400MHZ Procesor?

So that means its faster then the PSP and iPod right? So we could be seeing games on it? --Elven6 02:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Questions

There's a few things I was wondering that the article hadn't really answered for me (or maybe I missed it) and was wondering if there were answers to. If there are, it'd be nice to add in! Particularly, I am wondering:

1) I thought I remember reading that you could stream music to other Zune users. I don't know if this has any relationship to the 3play/day thing (or if particular streams would also be restricted from DRM). This August article mentions the streaming capability though (apparently to a max of 4 other Zune users). I don't see this mentioned in the current Wiki... but things may have changed...

2) What is the proximity one has to be within for his/her Zune to sense another Zune?

3) I'm not too tech-savvy... but could updatable firmware mean that it may allow the Zune to eventually upgrade itself to allow wifi-with-computer, and changes to its 3play/day feature? (As opposed to buying a new Zune) Maybe this isn't answerable at this point, but would be cool to eventually find out anyway.

Thanks! -- Shadowolf 10:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

(1) The DJ/streaming feature was proposed during development (and mentioned to the media), but it is not in the version 1 product that hit stores this week. My suspicion is that Microsoft is giving in to all of the demands of the record labels (Microsoft has zero leverage in this market), and the labels were uncomfortable with that feature. It's also possible that Microsoft couldn't get it working reliably enough, in which case it might show up as a future feature. (2) I've read that the max distance for Zunes to communicate to each other is about 50 feet. (We should confirm this and add it to the article.) (3) Updateable firmware really isn't that special -- the iPod has it too. The features you mention are possible through firmware updates, but there are no promises from Microsoft about specific features. (Although they have explicitly stated that podcast support is coming eventually.) If I were you, I wouldn't make a purchase based on "potential" future features. When you buy a product like this, make your decision based on what's available NOW. If other features are added to your device in the future, consider that a bonus. BJ Nemeth 03:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks alot for answering my questions, and for the suggestion. That was extremely helpful! =) -- Shadowolf 05:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Zune picture

It'd be great if a Wikipedian who has a Zune can photograph the device (preferably on a white background) and use it in place of the current promotional image. That way, we can avoid using the fair-use image, and just rely on one done in house. What do other people think? –- kungming·2 (Talk) 04:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

That is of course, assuming someone bought a Zune. And judging from the sales of the device at my local retailers (almost zero sold, I think), I think it's going to be hard. –- kungming·2 (Talk) 04:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
There are already free images available, and one has even been uploaded to Commons already. Dancter 21:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this picture would be good for the purpose of this article. –- kungming·2 (Talk) 22:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Except that the image may not actually be free, in which case it isn't much better than the image that is currently up. There's no source information for the image. It even looks suspiciously like the promotional image, but with the screen image edited out. Dancter 22:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
That's true. I could edit the other picture so that it works for the article. (Zune iPod,jpg) –- kungming·2 (Talk) 01:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I've now uploaded an image from Flickr under a Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 license. It may not be the best, cleanest, most professional one shot there is, but it's IMHO better than nothing at least. I found one slightly more "professional"-looking image under a similar license, but I found this one more useful as it had the connector on display as well, giving the reader some sense of scale as can imagine how large a connector may be, but perhaps not the device if there's nothing at all for visual comparison otherwise. -- Northgrove 16:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted back to the image you uploaded. While there are better ones out there that also seem to carry legitimate free licenses,[1] this one's already been uploaded, and can be used in the meantime. (While the presence of the small Zune logo on the connector, as well as the stuff on the screen could have copyright issues, the photograph itself is freely licensed. It should be possible to edit out the problematic elements to make the image okay.) Several other images that were uploaded to Commons seem to be simply modifications of images that aren't freely licensed, which doesn't make them free. Dancter 03:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Xbox Stratagy

There is a rumor going around that Microsoft is taking the same stratagy with Zune as it did with Xbox- infiltrate the market, and then grab a larger share each generation. I'm not sure if this is a realistic position yet, but we should be on the look out for facts that could validate this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.39.132.78 (talk • contribs) .

It's not a rumor; it's true, as reported by MSNBC : http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15934322/page/2/ (7th paragraph down). Anyone think we should add this in somewhere?WasAPasserBy 03:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It still sounds like a rumour in the MSNBC article. MSNBC could be assuming what Microsoft is doing, they don't source the paragraph, and I don't think Microsoft would admit to it. I bought an Xbox for reasons, and I'd still buy an iPod. The Zune's confusing. I don't think we should put it in the article unless it becomes apparent that that's what MS's strategy/hope is. --MPD01605 (T / C) 04:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it will ever be apparent (not for a few years or until the next-gen Zune) what MS's strategy is. While the paragraph, taken as an entity, does sound like speculation, when taken in context (with the plain factual interview w/ J), it comes out sounding pretty factual. Also, MSNBC rarely will specifically source one paragraph. However, I will concede to waiting for further references before adding this piece of information. Cheers! WasAPasserBy 00:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Backup of DRM music

Anybody could comment to what happens to your purchased DRM music if your Zune dies? Is there a database that remembers what you owned and allow you to download the music again, freely, on a new Zune device, or must you repurchase your whole library?

Or can you backup your DRM music on a PC?

What about upgrades? If you purchase 3 years from now a new version of the Zune, how do you transfer your DRM music to the new device? Is this possible? --Deragon 14:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have a Zune Pass (unlimited music) and I had the same questions, so I called Zune support and asked, what they said is: 1. If you lose the files, you can redownload a certain number of time if you bought them individually using restore library in account management. 2. If you have a zune pass, you can do the same thing - on up to 3 computers. Or you can transfer the files and back them up yourself 3. If you buy your music, you can use an unlimited number of Zunes 4. If you lease it, you can use two at a time - you can call them and they will disallow one if you want to add another. I also read in help that you can do it by just selecting "Do not Automatically Sync" on the Zune that you want to remove, but I don't know if that works.

Hope that helps. Arcaynn 17:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This is, of course, assuming that Microsoft keeps the Zune Store servers up and running.
In 2000 I purchased a Rocket eBook (later called the Gemstar REB1100), a very nice and completely proprietary device. Over the next few years I purchased approximately $300 worth of books for it, all protected by DRM keyed to an individual serial number for my individual device. Supposedly, if your device failed, you could do some kind of protocol with Gemstar customer service, and they could set things up so you could re-download the books into a replacement device.
I bought some of the books from via the Barnes and Noble website, some from Amazon, some from Powell's, and some direct from Gemstar. Gemstar went belly up. It turns out that all of these other website were just business partners, and all of the books were hosted on Gemstar's servers.
There is no way I will ever be able to re-download my purchased content, and when my eBook device finally fails (it now has a rattling sound, and the original 20-hour battery life is down to about 2 hours) I will, as far as I know, completely lose access to my purchased content.
I don't say this will happen to Zune owners. Microsoft certainly isn't going to go under. I do say that Microsoft was apparently willing to abandon all of its PlaysForSure customers when that didn't turn out to be a success, and I think it is at least possible that they will abandon the Zune if it doesn't turn out to be a success.
I will think twice about ever committing to DRM-protected content again. Yes, I do own an iPod... and I burn every piece of music I purchase to a CD and then re-import it as unprotected .mp3.
Assuming you can do this with a Zune, I think it would be a wise precaution to do so. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Infobox improvement

I'm thinking the infobox would be a great place to mention which formats the Zune can play. This is a major deciding factor between the Zune and something like the iPod. - JustinWick 03:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Who moved it to Zune (Microsoft's products and services)?

And why? PureLegend 20:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This stuff needs to stop moving when I'm trying to comment.
User:Bafio made the move. His reasoning was posted under the Talk:Zune#Zune section (end of the section). For the record, I disagree with the move. --MPD01605 (T / C) 20:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Astroturfing allegations

Although I consider the article in question, overall, quite crap, that does not mean it can be dismissed. The section it is in is one for criticism made by the industry and/or community - it doesn't have to be right, so long as we point that out, it just has to be encyclopaedic. The allegations are serious and from a notable enough source, and being so deserve a mention. --Tom Edwards 19:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether it is notable. Briefing the article referenced they provide no evidence of the practice in regards to the zune and only seem to assume it is taking place based on historic practices. Are accusations of "astroturfing" from one websource encyclopaedic?--24.69.227.10 09:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
If this were coming out of the blue, probably not. But the article also points us towards a well-documented history of similar astroturfing; and if anyone wants to WHOIS some of the community sites (eg Zune Scene) we could verify his claims that they were registered before anyone knew the thing's name ourselves. --Tom Edwards 09:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
When was Zune announced? http://whois.domaintools.com/zunescene.com reports that the creation date was July 15th 2006 --BenBurch 17:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
14th September. Looks like RDM is right! --Tom Edwards 20:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC) See below --Tom Edwards 20:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Some more links:
Having done some background checks on RDM itself, it's clearly not a respectable source. But the issues it raises still seem relevant to me, and links from the original article, where the thing has them, are generally to reputable sources. --Tom Edwards 09:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the current presentation of the allegations is poorly done. It would seem a reedit would be in order, or at the least an acknowledgement of a) the June 11th leak and site creation date and b) the response debunking the allegations. A minor unsourced note in a prejudiced article seems an unworthy citation: perhaps a rewrite of that aspect of criticism to eliminate the RDM article and instead provide a better reference to the AppleFritter article/issue would be in order. --Preppy 01:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Why is this section being readded/deleted? Is there no consensus here? Is there any more substance to this critcism? Rereading the cited reference, there's no substance to the astroturfing allegation - no site called out, just a vague suggestion that this has happened. I've emailed Daniel asking for a specific reference: hopefully that provides some level of clarity here. --Preppy 11:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Sites weren't registered before the name was known

The official announcement was on September 14, but the name was in fact leaked/revealed on June 11. None of the sites I've seen looked up were registered before then. --Tom Edwards 20:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... That's July 11th. Same day as many of these registrations. --BenBurch 00:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

software and hacks

So with the Zune is it possible that you can (now or in the future) install different software for it (ala lunix on the ipod)? It seems like the hardware is pretty good and has some clever ideas, but the DRM just makes it unusable to me. --Xercessthegreat 19:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No clue yet. You might head over to http://www.slashdot.org/ and post an "Ask Slashdot" item on this. --BenBurch 00:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism!

"->" is now displayed instead of the article. Somebody restore please. --Andrex

Pricing comment

I'm not sure the Costco comment--as it's written--is justified, considering the $239.99 has *always* been their price since the player's introduction (they ARE a warehouse store, after all, and MSFT apparently hasn't tried fixing the price of the Zune as they have previously with the Xbox/Xbox 360), and others, including Apple, Nintendo, Sony, etc., have with their various electronics.

Moreover, Costco also sells the 30GB 5.5G iPod for the same price. Monoblocks 18:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

A bit strange device?

Don't you think Zune is a bit strange device? First, while it can connect to another Zune via WiFi, it has no text chat feature. Second, while it can share photos, it has no camera to make these photos on the go.

Use-as-a-hard-drive hack

On further consideration, I'm removing:

(People unassociated with Microsoft have published an unsanctioned modification of the Windows OS that appears to allow the current version of Zune to operate as an external hard drive:

Here's why. The context is a criticism of Zune for lacking an obvious feature that virtually all competitive MP3 players have.

The statement... originally made in a stronger form... says that it is possible, with a fairly simple Windows hack (a Registry edit) to make the Zune function as an external hard drive.

But, in context, this hack is presented as if it could be an answer to the criticism. But it is not a valid answer. If product A, when installed and configured as specified by the manufacturer, without modification, cannot perform function B, it is irrelevant that someone knows a possible way to modify product A to enable it to do B.

If a car is criticized for taking 11.6 seconds to go from 0 to 60 mph, it is not an answer to say that you can make it go 0 to 60 in 9.2 seconds by rechipping the engine. If a Toyota Prius is criticized because it is not a "plug-in hybrid"--there is no way to charge the traction battery from house current--it is not an answer to say that numerous hobbyists have found ways to do so.

To say the Zune can be used as a hard drive because you can modify Windows to make it do this reminds me of the old joke:

"What's green, hangs on the wall, and whistles?"

"I give up."

"A red herring."

"But, it isn't green."

"So? You could paint it green."

"But it doesn't hang on the wall."

"What? There's a law says you can't hang it on the wall?"

"But it doesn't whistle."

"Nu, so it doesn't whistle."

Dpbsmith (talk) 19:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Linux on Zune

There is a report of progress towards getting Linux on Zune: http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Linux_is_Workable_on_Zune/551-78180-615.html

Playing DVD's on it

I'm confused as to whether or not there's a way to play DVD's on the zune. I know there's a way to do it with the latest iPod, and I came here seeing if it said there was a way to do it on the Zune, but I'm kind of new to the whole MP3 player scene, so I can't seem to find the answer. So can you put DVD's on video files compatibale with the Zune and play them, and if so how?