Talk:Zui Quan/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Only one? 2 Unclear 3 Trivia Sections 4 Rock Lee 5 Facts 6 Origins

Only one?

Since there exist "drunken" forms in several different Chinese styles, can it really be said to me a style on its own? I doubt that there is any style that does only drunken form. // Habj 02:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

There is. // 70.16.106.160 17:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Zui Quan is a variant of some chinese martial arts, similar to Chin Na. Whoever wrote the article is ill-imformed and flaunting their ignorance by saying it's a style in itself. I'm not familiar with the wiki setup, and don't care to fix it. Also, 70.16.106.160, please give some source to a school that teaches "drunken kung fu." Perhaps you're thinking Zui Choy Li Fut or something similar? I've never seen a legit druken kung fu school that originates in China. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.31.9 (talk • contribs) 03:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Unclear

Quote: 'It is considered to be among the harder wushu styles due to the need for powerful joints and fingers'. Is that 'hard' as in the hard/soft dichotomy, or 'hard' as in 'difficult to master', or both? -Toptomcat 01:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a Northern style, so it almost certainly a hard style (the article doesn't say much either way, but there certainly doesn't seem to be many of the hallmarks of soft styles), and the reason given seems to explain its difficulty. So - both? --Gwern (contribs) 01:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Does that edit sufficiently clear things up? -Toptomcat 01:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you really think that most northern styles are hard styles when compared to southern styles? Come on... —Preceding unsigned comment added by NJMauthor (talk • contribs) 21:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Trivia Sections

Wikipedia discourages trivia sections; this wiki will benefit if the trivia section is not expanded to include more irrelevant content. Nico (talk) 21:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Rock Lee

There is no mention of Rock Lee on this talk page. All I did was add a reference, the only one the article has. I undid your deletion because it is the only trivia that has a reference, and the article needs references. --MahaPanta (talk) 02:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd support the inclusion. Rock Lee is a common character in one of the most popular anime/manga series in Japan and America; his popularity is attested to by the dozens of attempts by anons to add a mention of him into the article. He's easily more significant than many of the mentions we do include.

I would clean it up a little, personally, and put it in the book section (since the manga came first...), but it should be included. --Gwern (contribs) 17:41 15 March 2008 (GMT)

I'll go ahead and move it to the book section. I believe this example should remain above all others since it is the only thing in the article that is referenced. --MahaPanta (talk) 18:18, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Then we shall remove all trivia. Trivia sections are discouraged. NJMauthor (talk) 22:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

With that thought, let's just delete the whole article because nothing would be left. Trivia sections are discouraged, not prohibited. --MahaPanta (talk) 03:58, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't consider that an acceptable alternative... --Gwern (contribs) 04:19 16 March 2008 (GMT)

Neither do I, and that's why I think it should stay the way it is. --MahaPanta (talk) 06:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

In popular culture: Talk pages were featured on an episode of the hit series "Lost". —Preceding unsigned comment added by NJMauthor (talk • contribs) 04:23, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Please explain what that contributes.--MahaPanta (talk) 06:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Care to explain what your trivia addition contributes? NJMauthor (talk) 23:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

For one, it's not my "trivia addition", someone else added it, I just don't think it should be deleted. Besides being the only trivia that is referenced, the manga it references shows examples of Zui Quan as Rock Lee calls out the names of the moves. Now I want to know why you are so bent on deleting this one, and none of the rest. --MahaPanta (talk) 00:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you telling me that this "manga" character yells out the names of actual drunken style techniques? Can you please provide an example? I'm simply curious. NJMauthor (talk) 04:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

My friend has the manga, but I still have the anime episode that on my DVR that is the equivalent. It is episode 124, and is called "The Beast Within". I'm not going to wake my friend up at 1:30 in the morning for the names, but I'll rewatch episode 124 to see which moves he uses. --MahaPanta (talk) 05:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Since Drunken Style does not exist independently as its own CMA system, the chances of the technique names in a television show being even related to Zui Quan are very low. NJMauthor (talk) 01:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Facts

This article contains no facts. If one were to research the Jackie Chan Film "The Drunken Master" you would discover that drunken boxing, as imagined in the film, was invented by Chan and his stunt people specifically for that movie. There are references made to The Eight Drunken Immortals, but nowhere in Chinese history are there any persons claiming to be practitioners or students of this fictitious martial art. Whether or not modern schools have independently developed a drunken boxing style is open to debate, as the criterion for such an art are historically absent. BLUNTrauma (talk) 04:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. NJMauthor (talk) 13:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

NJ, you would agree, since you keep deleting the only Ref tag in the article.

Blunt, "drunken boxing, as imagined in the film, was invented by Chan" key words are "as imagined in the film", meaning it has nothing to do with any representation outside the film.

If yall think this article really contains no facts, then put it up for WP:AFD. --MahaPanta (talk) 04:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Zui Quan is not a style, but it is a component, or techniques, in other styles. NJMauthor (talk) 04:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

You have that backwards, Zui Quan borrows components and techniques from other styles. --MahaPanta (talk) 23:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Origins

I have removed the following:

==Origins==

The style is ancient, and the details of its origin are vague. According to legend, it originated with the poet Li Bai in the Tang Dynasty, but there are five other stories of its beginnings.

The first story is that monasteries had tournaments between each other; one year, a master spoke to his pupils. He said that should they win that year, they would celebrate for six months. When the competition came, they won, and, true to his word, the master began the celebrations. However, the other monasteries sought revenge, and when they came to the monastery of the celebrating monks, the monks were so drunk that it seemed that they would be unable to defend their home. The master still managed to defeat the vengeful monks, and thus created 'The Drunkard's Fist'.

A second story is that an unnamed hermit (his drinking habits are unmentioned) lived alone in a cave in the Qingcheng Mountains, well placed to learn styles from which to create his own. When he became old, he soon felt that he needed to transmit his art so that it may continue. He began teaching a child, his only disciple. However, realizing that he would not be able to teach the whole style to the student before his own death, he taught him a poem in which the precepts of his style were contained. He then told the student to study the paintings upon the cave walls, so that he may know the style. After the master's death, when the student attempted to read the paintings, he found that he couldn't understand the paintings and, disheartened, he decided to leave. Before he did so, he got drunk and returned to the cave. When he gazed at the paintings, he found that they began to move, and he discovered the workings of the style.

The third story is a tale of the Eight Immortals. According to legend, they were invited to a banquet in an undersea kingdom. However, they arrived intoxicated and rambunctious. The kingdom's guards attacked them, and even though they seem too drunk to retaliate, they offhandedly created a new style, taking advantage of their drunken state. The guards were defeated, and their "Drunken" technique was created (another version tells that they arrived to the banquet and got drunk during the festivities, and were then attacked by the guards).

A fourth story is that policemen in China would carry liquor during the winter to keep themselves warm. This worked, but they noticed that their fighting suffered because of their intoxication. So, gradually over time, they adapted and created a style which could be practiced while drinking without detriment.

A fifth story is that the monks of Shaolin created this very special style. Attracted by the famous invincibility of the Shaolin monks, many visitors came to their monastery to learn from the masters of Shaolin about their fighting style. Since they were not real monks, they were allowed to drink alcohol. Some of them got drunk, were challenged and, of course, defeated by the challengers. The masters, feeling responsible for their students, thought of a new fighting style. Using this style, it wouldn't be obvious if the Shaolin monks were drunk or not - obviously drunk students were able to terribly defeat their challengers, since they were not drunk but using the new Zui Quan style.

The last is the story of a young man who offended a Kung Fu master, who issued him a challenge. The young man knew that his kung fu was no match for the master's, became very upset, and got drunk. Thinking that by drinking he had thrown away any little chance he may have had, he went into the fight recklessly. To everyone's surprise, the young man, who had been stiff and awkward before, had now become loose, flexible, unpredictable, resistant to pain, and totally fearless. He defeated the master, and later developed a style based on his fluke.

Because it lack references and makes ridiculous claims. Unsourced material is one thing, but this is some kind of evil mutated hybrid of a trivia section and fanwank. If someone is inclined to provide citations for one or more of these, they could be reincorporated. The current state of the section adds nothing of value to the article. Leushenko (talk) 15:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Well said, leushenko. But, if the article has no unsourced material, save for trivia, should it be moved to the list of fictional martial arts? NJMauthor (talk) 21:47, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

My old kick boxing instructors usually referred to it as "Drunkard Chuan" when teaching us how to defend against it. --MahaPanta (talk) 00:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it ought to go in fictional martial arts on the grounds that it has a real existence now, as a Wushu style. Whether Wushu constitutes martial arts is a second debate, but it does exist. Specifically traditional "ours is the real" zuiquan may well be fictional, though. However, I wouldn't say that without a definitive reference; as zuiquan exists in at least one real way, I would suggest assuming for the time being that the traditional form is equally real. Leushenko (talk) 00:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.