Talk:Zmeu

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[edit] Smaug

Any relation to Tolkien's dragon Smaug?

well, in any case, chronologically, Zmeu was way before Smaug. :) IleanaCosanziana 00:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

The following is better here than in the article:

To further investigate: Given that both words "zmeu" and "balaur" are of slavic etymology, there might be some similarities between Romanian and slavic dragon myths.

--Error 23:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Balaur is not "of Slavic etymology". The standard references rightly consider it substratum. There is no pan-Slavic word which it could be derived from, and the Romanian word has cognates in Albanian and Daco-Thracian. See the -balus element in Decebalus, and the -balli element in the ethnonym Triballi, which probably meant "three dragons"; a three-headed/three-bodied dragon figure is common in Thracian artifacts (cf. Hoddenott, et al.). See the etymology in the Balaur article. --Decius 17:54, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
here it is the quote from Paliga:

zmeu, zmei s.m. An essential figure of Romanian folk beliefs and folk mytology, with various benefic and malefic attributes, usually represented as a subterranean male in search of a human wife. The form has been held for a Slavic borrowing, even if a many details reject it; it closely related with zmeur, zmeură (see), which is NOT the result of hazard. Sl. zmьjь ‘snake, serpent, dragon’, from a radical *zmin its turn reflecting the root for ‘earth’, is not easy to explain, as IE *g[h(dh)em- ‘earth’, zero grade *g[h(dh)m-, resulted in Old Slavic *zem- ‘earth’, whereas the root for ‘snake, dragon’, *zmьjь, raises major questions, as Machek correctly observed. The archaic meaning must have been ‘being living on EARTH’, i.e. ‘human’ (in its etymological meaning, from humus), hence ‘man’, as in Lithuanian, where – from the same etymon – there is žmuo ‘man, human’ (related with Prus. smoy ‘man’). The similarity between Romanian, which preserves a Thracian (substratum) element, and Baltic (Lithuanian and Prussian) is normal. The indigenous character of zmeu is also supported by some attested Thracian forms: Zimi-, Ziemi-, Zemoin compound forms like Zimi-kenthis, Ziem-ices, Zemo-kontes, Zym-drenos, Zym-zdrenos etc. As in other similar cases (see under sută), we surmise that Sl. zmьjь seems a borrowing from either a northern Thracian dialect, before expansion, or from Proto-Romanian, during the first phase of expansion (as definitely sută and kъmotra are). See also zmeur (ă). The relation between zmeu and zmeur(ă) is essential in understanding the archaic origin of these forms. • See also rezema, răzema (re-/ră-zema).

zmeur', -i s.m. and zmeură, -e s.f. The plant Rubus idaeus (zmeur) and its fruit (zmeură); ‘raspberry; hindberry’. Der.: zmeuriș ‘raspberry/ hindberry bush’. Indigenous, from IE *g[h(dh)em- ‘earth’, zero grade *g[h(dh)m- > Thr. *zmeur- > Rom. *zmeur-. Similarly Lith. žem-uoga ‘strawberry’ (the plant Fragaria) (from žemė ‘earth’, cf. zmeu above) and Germ. Erd-beere ‘id.’, from Erde ‘earth’, lit. ‘earth-berry’. These examples show that both strawberries and raspberries were initially associated to ‘earth’; they also support the association zmeu –zmeur(ă) in Romanian as substratum elements. Probably most linguists have assumed that the relation zmeu –zmeură is the result of hazard; the etymological analysis clearly shows that they are indeed related as Urverwandtschaft.

There is not a single instance of pan-Slavic borrowing from Romanian, per Vasmer and Pokorny. The citiation is a ridiculous specimen of provincial nationalism which characterizes a deplorable state of nascent Romanian linguistics. --Ghirlandajo 08:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
BTW, here's what Ciorănescu's etymological dictionary says about "zmeu" and "zmeură":
ZMEU, (I) zmei, s.m. (din sl. zmiĭ = zmeu; cf. bg. zmĕi, zmija, scr. zmaj)
ZMÉURĂ s.f. ~ (prob. dintr-o formă primitivă *smeu, cu pl. neutru smeuri, de unde forma de sg. prezentă; relaţia cu zmeu este posibilă, deşi nu pare clară şi nu explică nici echivalentul macedoromân asńură; etimonul *meulum < meum = acantă nu pare convingător; orig. neogreacă este improbabilă; este posibil să fie vorba despre o răd. sl. sm(r)- care indică un fruct sau obiect încreţit, cu zbârcituri, cf. rus. smoródina = coacăză, smorčok = zbârciog, smorstennyĭ = încreţit, sb. smigj, smrec, smreka = ienupăr, bg. smrăštjam = a încreţi – cf. smorodin; din rom. > ngr. σμέουρον, tc. izmavula)
Cioranescu's speculation ("este posibil sa fie vorba despre o rad. sl. sm(r)-") on the etymology of Zmeura is unconvincing and not the consensus. The etymon is unknown. ---Decius 16:54, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Decius, I think the most probable etymology is that "zmeu" was borrowed from Bulgarian "zmej" as plural "zmei" and the singular form was reconstructed. AFAIK, this is not the only word were this scenario was followed. bogdan | Talk 15:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

The most probable etymology it may be, and it will be detailed. Regardless, I will still present Paliga's etymology, though I will note the problems with it. Even when I see a paper from another linguist (whatever his nationality) that totally refutes Paliga's etymology, Paliga's etymology will still be mentioned as an etymology that was once proposed. Ghirlandajo is behaving like a barbaric person from Asia, rather than a Wikipedian. ---Decius 15:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
you forget to add in account Paliga's bibliography - mainly Duridanov, who is very much a bulgarian linguist. IleanaCosanziana 00:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Romanian dragon

I think the title "Romanian dragon" is not very good because zmeu is not the only type of Romanian dragon, as we also have the balaur. We'd better move it back to zmeu. bogdan | Talk 20:21, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. To me a Balaur is as much a dragon as a Zmeu is. DEX even defines Balaur as "a Dragon", among its definitions. ---Decius 20:24, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hercules

Hercules "retrieved" the golden apples only in the loosest sense; the apples grew in the Hesperides and were not stolen. Much closer analogies are: Tsarevitch Ivan, the Fire Bird and the Gray Wolf, The Golden Bird, The Golden Mermaid, The Nine Peahens and the Golden Apples. Though the zmeu does appear to be unique in that, from this article, it doesn't appear to be even bird-like. Goldfritha 17:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)