Talk:Zinedine Zidane/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 Correct spelling?
- 1.1 Clarifications
2 We should remove the Arabic script on the basis that he was born in France and is of Berber parents.
3 More ruckus over the Arabic transliteration
4 Write Zidane's name in Tifinagh
5 Zidane's Name
6 Clarification Zidane's Name is Arabic but he is not an Arab
7 ZIDANE NAME SOLUTION

Correct spelling?

So why is it that Zizou's first name, Zinedine, is spelled Zinédine on his own website? And why does LeMonde.fr also spell it Zinédine?

24.8.179.190 08:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

This is very simple. Because it is pronounced Zinédine (in French). Writing it without the accent would mean that in French it is pronounced Zin-uh-din rather than Zin-eh-din as it is properly pronounced. In France there is a policy to change the original spelling of surnames so that they are read (by French speakers) in the same way as they should be pronounced. This is true for all people of immigrant origin, be it from Eastern Europe, Spain or North Africa. --Guzman ramirez 11:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually Im not all that sure now whether Zinedine is pronounced Zin uh dine or zin eh dine in French... Maybe its a case of mispronounciation of the original arabic which has led to a wrong spelling of the proper french transliteration....or vice versa. Quite confused now:-)--Guzman ramirez 11:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

people understand that if you were in zidane's position you too would have reacted the same way. I'm tires of people insulting zidane, saying that he has humiliated himself, this is not true. what is true is that zidane has allowed the italians to win because of his lack of control, however that does not mean that the italian was right, in my opinion i blame him more. Zidane is great player, a greta person. 2006 world cup would be remeberd for zidane.

Clarifications

Zidane is of Kabyle Amazigh origin as the person after this post states, yet Zidane's name is Arabic. Regardless of his ethnicity, his name is Arabic and written in Arabic and follow Arabic linguistic rules. Many use Arabic names from Morocco to Prsia, India & Indonesia and the lands in between. An Arabic name does not mean one is an Arab just as an English name can be had by a non-English. Incidentally the word Kabyle is of Arabic origin from the word Qabail which means "Tribes". ETYMOLOGY: Arabic qaba'il, pl. of qabla, tribe, qbl in Semitic roots. Now you may read about his Kabyle roots knowing clearly that his name is Arabic.

A few points to consider why it is pertinent to remove Arabic references and spelling of Zidane's name. ZZ is a Kabyle. Kabyles are Berbers(Amazigh). By definition, they are not arabs.

- - note: Sorry we can not remove the references to Arabic because Zinedine Zidane's name is Arabic. Research has proven that Zinedine, Yazid, and Zidane are Arabic names that come from the roots..Zayn al Din, Yazid, Zayd-an. Thank you for your suggestion anyway.

The amalgamation of muslims with arabs in Europe, especially in France, is partly to blame. North Africans are not arabs. Genetically, it is a proven fact.We are all of the humans race though we have what we call genetic markers that help determine,using Y-chromosomes and mtDNA,relative proximity of relationship between varying gene-pools of different populations. Culturally, the gap between arabians of both the arabic peninsula + the Levant and the Berbers(north Africans) is so huge. Religious practices of islam are universal among muslims and ought not to be confused with societal culture and way of life. The other myth is that of language. Arabic is not the mother tongue of north africans. Arabic is analoguous to Latin. Nobody practises it except in official ceremonies by state officials and in religious establishments. It is a sacred cultual/symbolic language the Arab-islamist regimes force on their people. Two indigeneous languages are used by North Africans: Tamazight and Berbrya or Darja (the term berbrya was prevalent in the past. It done away with for it alludes to 'berber'. Middle eastern people refer to North africans and to their languages as Berbers). Tamazight: is the oldest language with coptic of the southern shores of the mediterranean. It comes in a few regional varieties. The main variants being: Kabyle,Chelha,Tarifit,Shawi, Tamazight and Tamashek.

Darja: is the result of the interaction/fusion of Berber(Tamazight)with Arabic and subsequent other influences,mainly Spanish, Turkish and French. Darja comes also in many different regional flavours. It is despised , frowned upon and considered as a 'bastard' colloquial unworthy of any consideration by the arab- -islamist idelogists and the states.

Speakers of Berber(Tamazight) are the majority in Morroco. In Algeria, they represent at least 25%. Official statistics are unreliable as they often deny the existence of Berbers. For Tunisia and Lybia(1/4 of the population) Berbers,according to their governments, have ceased to exist.

Kabyles are very proud of their Berber(AMAZIGH) heritage. They make a point of asserting it. They staunchly refuse assimilation to arabs on the pretext that Islam, the Holy Koran and Muhamed the prophet are of arabic extraction. The notion of Islam/Arab elitism and superiority confered to them by God who prefers Arabic and arabs is forcefully rejected and criticised by Kabyles and progressive Berbers. Endoctrination with falsifications confining to fascist practices starts early at schools. Millions are subjected to it and unfortunately end up believing in it and turn into zealots who promote it ...

ZZ and his parents speak Kabyle (Berber of Kabylia) at home. It is a known established fact that he dissociates himself from any affiliation to arabism . He claims to be proud of being a Kabyle and of his parents origins. His PR and family make sure that he is refered to as a 'KABYLE'. Numerous articles and publications confirm that. `The article penned by Andrew Hussey of 'The Observer' who spoke with Zidane is a revealing testament to the star keenness to emphasize clearly his identity. Probably, to cut short and put to rest the manipulators distortions in the arab media. "... I am still proud to be who I am: first, a Kabyle from La Castellane, then an Algerian from Marseille, and then a Frenchman." [ http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,1182707,00.html]

Monotheist religions originate from the Middle East, so are most of the names of muslims,christians and israelites . Most muslim are baptised with arab/semitic names . Indonesians, Turks, Persians are not refered to as arabs because they bear arab/semitic names.

There is a tendency in the so-called arab world to label as arab every achievement, celebrity or outstanding personality/individual who is a muslim. Over 90% of islamic scientists,philosophers...academics of the medieval islamic civilisation are non-arabs. Unfortunately, in arab countries in school texbooks and the media they are celebrated as arabs. It is like saying: "Isaac Newton is a christian therefore he is a Judean: a semitic person from the holy land affiliated to the Christ himself". The absurdity of this logic is obvious to all! Hence, this arab grabbing and 'recuperation' attempt. The politics of arab hegemonism in Wikipedia in action...

Please, ponder on these remarks and if needed further research and enquiry, take the right steps in order to remove the arabic spelling and refernces to arabic in Zidane's name. Stick to what is relevant to the character and not the origin of his first name or its supposed pronunciation. Incidentally, Zidane is Berber and means 'sweet'. But that is not the point.

Thanks! 86.1.101.46 02:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry we can not remove the references to Arabic because Zinedine Zidane's name is Arabic. Research has proven that Zinedine, Yazid, and Zidane are Arabic names that come from the roots..Zayn al Din, Yazid, Zayd-an. Thank you for your suggestion anyway.

In classical Arabic ---> pronounced Zainou D-din.
In Darija (Maghrebi Arabic) ---> pronounced Zeen Eddin.
In French ---> written Zinédine and pronounced Zeen(né)din (note the "né" spelling - same as in né).(<--------Please see below to see that this spelling is not the French spelling, according to the French état-civil.Musikfabrik 07:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)) -- Szvest 11:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}

The "-u" ending is really for classical, but if you're equating Classical and MSA, it probably wouldn't be used. In MSA you only need to add the -u ending in the most formal of contexts, it's otherwise inherent, unlike the other cases (i.e. just be Zayn ad-Din). IPA of "ad" would probably something near IPA [a], though possibly near [ɛ]. Good comparisons, though. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 16:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Szvest, since you knew what the correct pronounciation in Algerian is (I modified it in the article to conform to arabic transliteration standards. I don't think the "e" is pronounced differently from "a," nor is "ee" different from long "i," is it?), do you know the correct pronounciation of Yazid in Algerian Arabic? Is it any different from MSA? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 07:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

- - Correction. Here is the correct way unlike the former contributers way. Thanks for making the revision about the pronounciation of his name in Arabic and Algerian Arabic. But one mistake still is apparent. Transliteration of the Arabic you put "Zaynu-d-Dīn Dīn" it should be "Zayn-u-Dīn Yazīd Zaydān", in Arabic it is Zaydan not Zidan, that is Algerian Arabic...& Zayn (beauty) is one word & Dīn (path/way) is another..while the "u" in between signifies the word "the" like "al" in Arabic. When you put those three words (Zayn & al & Dīn) together the "al" becomes "u". Zayn-u-Dīn..... Yazīd Zaydān (not Zidan).

- Actually it's a mistake that was created by French journalists who misprounce the name. The official spelling of this first name, according to the practices of French "état-civil" during the time of the birth of Zidane (it used to be that the officer recording the birth had to use certain spellings for names, and not others), should be without the accent. The name should actually be written "Zinèdine" if you write it according to the way the name should be pronouced, but the official spelling is "Zinedine". This has been discussed ad naseum in the French wikipedia and the correct spelling has been confirmed as "Zinedine". In his private life, Zidane uses his second first name, so probably he's not that concerned about this anyway. Musikfabrik 07:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

We should remove the Arabic script on the basis that he was born in France and is of Berber parents.

--Greasysteve13 07:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, no. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 07:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

No per Savidan ;). His name is still originally in Arabic, so the Arabic script should stay. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 08:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The arabic script of the name has been removed again.I too am of the opinion that it should be kept as it is originally an arabic name.Could someone please revert to the previous entry as I am not too sure how to do it and do not want to risk messing it up.--Sagacious 10:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't say I agree. Simply having a name that derives from Arabic doesn't mean it requires a transliteration in the article. Look at Kareem Abdul Jabbar or Muhammed Ali. In those cases, the men changed their name to Arabic, signifying that the language is important to them, but there is no transliteration. The criteria I would use here are: Does Zidane even speak/read Arabic (I can't find any references either way, but admittedly didn't look hard) and is there any benefit (primarily to the French/European users of wikipedia) for having it? Otherwise, it seems extraneous, and like we're trying to say he's Algerian/Berber first and French second.

It is also my understanding that in Algeria, records are kept using the roman script, not the Arabic one. If so, then there's absolutely no reason for artificially putting his name in Arabic. Dkatten 17:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Why does it matter what origin his name is? By this standard, David Beckham (whose first name is Hebrew in origin, should also have his name tranliterated into Hebrew on the Wikipedia.--DaveOinSF 19:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a fairly classic situation. Someone arrives with a new username or anonymously in WP and has a bone to pick ([1]). Some of the justifications for this are political associations with Zidane's family lineage. Ridiculous, and all the more reason for insisting on keeping the transliteration and assistance with proper pronunciation (unless of course there is other reasoning we have not heard here yet). Muhammed Ali's transliteration mentioned above is an entirely different set of circumstances, because he is of African-American rather than Arabic roots. Nor did he tend to emphasize or dwell publicly on the original Arabic-language origins of Muhammed Ali. Same with Kareem Abdul Jabbar. The transliterations are, in my opinion, aesthetically beautiful, objective and relevant, and thus worthy of keeping. Now, I'm not saying what the consensus should be, but one new user with a bone to pick shouldn't have control over editorial choices in the articles on WP. Therefore I've reverted again. That's twice today, so someone else will need to pick it up from here, if desired. Have a good day all. . ... Kenosis 20:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ with you ! ZZ has no arabic roots besides his first name (his parents are Berber muslims but non-practising from Kabylia). You got it wrong Kenosis ! [left unsigned by ?]

Ok, I've got a few precedents - [Shareef Abdur-Rahim] and [Raghib Ismail]. These are both athletes with given Arabic names and who identify with the Muslim faith. And if we're looking for someone with "Arab roots", then perhaps [Ralph Nader] or [Joseph Farah] need these transliterations. The argument that "But it's an Arabic name!" is fallacious in that it fails to recognize the multitude of people with names of Arabic origin. Should we put a transliteration for [Layla] because it too is an Arabic name? Kenosis, your point about Arabic roots is interesting, but incorrect (as is pointed out elsewhere, Berbers != Arabic). The fact is that there is no objective reason for including the transliteration that does not show numerous inconsistencies across the wiki.

I'd also like to say just for the record that while I've got an opinion on this particular case, I think it's probably a broader issue that should be taken up as a policy matter. That is, maybe we should develop some guidelines for all transliterations - I've found many of them helpful, but this one left me confused.Dkatten 17:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear, it is not a situation that it is "just one user". In just this thread, there are at least three other distinct users who believe that the Arabic version of Zidane's name is unjustified in the article. --DaveOinSF 21:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

What is quite clear in this whole discussion is the overtone of the word "political". But if this is the consensus, c'est la vie. I've put in a pronunciation given by Zidane's website. ... Kenosis 05:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I have tentatively removed the Arabic-proper transliteration, which seems to be the main bone of contention here, and left in the Algerian Arabic (partly influenced by Kabyle), and the IPA transliteration. Here is the text of what I removed, in case it's needed again. Good regards all. ... Kenosis 19:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Arabic: زين الدين يزيد زيدان‎, transliteration: Zayn-u-Dīn Yazīd Zaydān ... 19:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

- - I had put the proper pronounciation of his name in Arabic but I agree with your editing. It is more clear now. His name printed in French, Arabic, and how it is pronounced in his country of origin. Those that wish the Arabic to be removed as well have other issues to deal with. The question should always be True or False. Is his name Arabic? If it is true then wiki has the right to put it or not to put it, that is not "oppression".

The rights of Zidane's community of origin in Algeria are not recognized by the Algerian State. Berbers' fundamental Human RIghts are flouted. It's all well documented. The introduction of the Arabic scripture is another way of saying , "Look Here! This champion is Arab ( related

to Arabs)". That's subtle disinformation. 62.6.139.11 20:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)Sue

Zinedine Zidane is the official spelling of the man. His birth certificate and passport are in Latin characters . I scoured through his websites and nowhere you'd find anything remotely related to arabs or arabic. French-Algerian Kabyle is to the point and very accurate. Do away with the superfluous and inappropriate. Suggestion: use arabic on Arab version of WIKI. Bye Ciao Britonia Britonia

A few points to consider why it is pertinent to remove Arabic references and spelling of Zidane's name. ZZ is a Kabyle. Kabyles are Berbers(Amazigh). By definition, they are not arabs.

KABYLES (Berbers in general) are victims of ethnocide by forcible arabisation policies of North African governments. The latter are known dictatorships bent on eradicating any form of opposition to arab-islamic policies. Democracy and pluralism in all its forms are perceived as a threat. Kabyles are resisting these discriminations aimed at wiping out their age-old identity. Policies of assimilation to 'arabness' are akin to fascist ethnic cleansing by eradication of a language and a culture.

Most born muslims carry semitic sounding names. That does not make them semitic arabs. Names are pronounced differently according to region and culture. Within the same country you may have the same name pronounced or even transcribed differently. It is even more so for the proud Berber Kabyles.

ZZ and his parents speak Kabyle (Berber of Kabylia) at home. It is a known established fact that he dissociates himself from any affiliation to arabism . He claims to be proud of being a Kabyle and of his parents origins. His PR and family make sure that he is refered to as a 'KABYLE'. Numerous articles and publications confirm that. The article penned by Andrew Hussey of 'The Observer' who spoke with Zidane is a revealing testament to the star keenness to emphasize clearly his identity. Probably, to cut short and put to rest the manipulators' distortions in the arab media. "... I am still proud to be who I am: first, a Kabyle from La Castellane, then an Algerian from Marseille, and then a Frenchman." [ http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,1182707,00.html]

Please, for the sake of decency and integrity, take the right steps in order to remove the arabic spelling and refernces to arabic in Zidane's name. Stick to what is relevant to the character and not the origin of his first name or its supposed pronunciation. Incidentally, Zidane in Berber means 'sweet'. But that is not the point. Zidane is a french footballer of Kabyle origin as he likes to be known as.

Thanks! SADECK

I just wanna chime in with my two cents’ on this. I don’t give a fuck about Berbers’ rights or Arab hegemony or none of that, but I want to second the comments of Dkatten and DaveOinSF. If he was born in France, and doesn’t speak Arabic, or write his name in Arabic, why have the Arabic script? ~~~Wiki Wikardo 11:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

More ruckus over the Arabic transliteration

Note that new user User:SADECK has several times unilaterally removed the Arabic transliteration, replaced by other editor(s) yesterday and twice by myself today. Discussion above in #We should remove the Arabic script on the basis that he was born in France.. Whatever the consensus turns out to be, I do not believe it should not be dictated by one user with an obvious political agenda, shown here, here and in the long subsection of the section above on this page. ... Kenosis 20:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The material was removed again. While I understand questioning the validity of this transliteration, the discussion has not yet come to a consensus. The material should remain until some sort of decision has been reached. Musikfabrik 07:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

- I've added two comment to User:SADECK's discussion page, nicely asking him to wait until this discussion has been finished to remove this information, but he's just removed it again. Could somebody else please try to reason with him? Musikfabrik 16:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Musikfabrik says that a consensus has yet to be reached as to the irrelevant arabic transcription. The post I received said it was reached. Is the truth to a fact what a majority decides or the incontrovertible objective reality ? In North Africa the majority says we are Arabs because we are muslims a religion our ancestors adopted so we must shut up and keep quiet,stop protesting equality for our identity. Our language is unworthy of recognition or officialdom (idem in the rest of North Africa).

I explained that there is a political motive by name affiliation to the arab sphere that Kabyles( Berbers,in general) deny. Zidane declaration of his Kabyle(Berber) identity is reason enough to invoque the origins of a first name. By the same standard as used the arabists the names of Muhamed Ali, Karim Aduldjabar...all muslim names of arabic sounding would have to be transliterated in the arabic script. Furthermore, Hebrew names (Michael, Mark , Paul, David...) would have to be reproduced in the Hebraic or Aramaic script and so on for any other name.

I say, refer to my explanations in above discussions, it is important to be coherent and consistant because there is manipulation by arab-islamists of the image of Zidane.

Berbers persecuted in their homeland of North Africa are being pursued even on the web. Follow the links on issues of identity.

There is nothing neutral in arab tagging of a name of a franch citizen of Berber descent whose's family dissociate themselves from any arab affiliation. The parents are muslims who gave a muslim name to their children.

ZZ himself, like the majority of younger Berbers of post-colonial north africa, reject cultural imperialism of arab-islamist orientations of the dictatorial regimes, has given non-muslim names to his own sons.

No offense Musikfabric, Kenosis,...I have the greatest of respects for all people and nations. But someone whose people are still suffering from identity denial and victimisation from arabists/islamists policies that refuse to them coexistence and cohabitation on equal footing in Algeria(Morocco , Tunisia and Lybia) is quite aware of the pernicious arabist propaganda.

Zidane a French citizen is a symbol to be capitalised on by the arab-islamist nationalists. The president of Algeria who criticized binationals is with obsequiosity profusely paying tribute to Zidane he is inviting to the Government Palace. The same president who is saying that Berber will never be accepted as an official language...

Zidane the footballing world star, warts and all, is turned a contentious issue by propagandists, who use arabism , islam of non-arab people as a trojan horse for ulterior motives.

I say give it a rest. Zizou is not an arab. Thanks

Sadeck

Arabic: زين الدين يزيد زيدان‎, transliteration: Zayn-u-Dīn Yazīd Zaydān ... 19:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

- Mr Sadeck, I completely support your rights to express your culture and language as you see fit. I personally was not aware of this situation and would like to think you for bringing it to my attention.

The main question here not one of the valid political problems of the Kabyle minority in Algeria, but how we present a public figure? Given the huge debat that was had over "Zinédine/Zinedine" and the amount of research that was necessary to finally come to a conclusion that (at least according to the sources consulted) that the spelling was "Zinedine", it seems to me that we've opened the proverbial can of worms here.

- This is not necessarily a problem, but in order for the majority of the people who follow this article to be convinced that the Arabic transliteration is both incorrect and inappropriate, you're going to have to present a very well-sourced, well-argumented case. If this is indeed what you feel to be the truth, then I would encourage you to continue to argument your position.

However, just to play "Devil's advocate" here, I'm curious as to 1. why Zidane identifies as a Muslim, when most people of Kabyle descent have other religious traditions (according to the information that I have here in France) 2. why the choice of the first name "Zinedine" which is essentially arabic and not Kabyle and 3. why the choices of essentially Muslim first names for the majority of his sons (with the exception of Enzo). Could you perhaps explain this according to your viev of the situation? Best wishes, Musikfabrik 20:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I am amazed by the scale of this fuss. We all know that he is a berber but only few people know that Zinedine Yazid Zidane are all arabic names!!! Under this basis, the transliterations should stay! -- Szvest 15:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The article mentions Zidane's Kabyle Berber origin, and no where is it mentioned that he is an Arab, so what are you worried about? I personally believe that all non-English "transliterations" should be removed from the English encyclopedia because it doesn't benefit the majority of readers (just the people who can read it). But unless this mass removal takes place, the Arabic transliteration should remain because the name is Arabic not French nor Berber. --Inahet 17:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, some of you're probably confused as to why the Zinedine doesn't match up with the Arabic name Zayn ad-deen. Maybe it is the way Algerians pronounce the name or maybe the name is spelled incorrectly in French (blame the parents), e.g. my uncles's name is Nour ad-deen, but it is spelled out in his American passport as Nouredin. --Inahet 18:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

A wide spectrum of different dialects loosely related to Arabic developed across that vast geographic North African area following the Islamic conquest.
Pidgeon vernaculars resulting from the mix of Berber, Arabic and African languages are widespread

As a result , words and names vary in the way they are pronounced or spelt. My Moroccan friends who claim to be Berbers say it is a misnomer to call the people and the region Arab. It is all part of a political domination by military might. Arabs and Berbers are two distinct people who occupy two different and distant regions on separate continents. I understand SADECK's point in the light of the politics linked to the issues of domination, lack of freedoms and democracy. Perversion and misappropriation of local heritage and culture by dominant ruling political oligarchies is a rule. Like Pele, Zidane (French) is a household name of universal dimension in the sporting world. Beware of chauvinism by the claiming of his name as if it were a trademark! You could set a trend/precedence. 86.1.101.46 00:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Svest and Inahet. His name is Arabic and should be translated in Arabic script. All berbers in North Africa know and use the arabic script, as it belongs to their cultural heritage. The Kabyle alphabet was created in France, pretty much out of nothing. Kabyle political nationalism is repressed but I wouldnt say Berber people are repressed or discriminated in neither Algeria nor Morocco. Kabyles have a strong representation in government in Algeria (e.g. PM Ahmed Ouyahia or Khalida Toumi).

Finnally Zidane claims himself that he is a Kabyle from la Castellane and an Algerian from Marseille. As a self-declared Algerian, his name should be written in Algerian.

--Burgas00 20:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I give you one two weeks to get rid of your Baathist propaganda

(the previous line sounds like a threat, wiki should not stand for threats)

Azul fellwen a yethma, Baathists are sticking to our asses even in here, I have read the "arguments" of the baathist and pro-baathists and found them to be fallacious, they just want to put their arabic script wherever we are.

Dear Baathists, if you are as honestes as you claim to be, why TF don't you put your arabic script in the turkish personalities articles? do you still feel as their slaves? is the ottoman rule still haunting you?

Just one example: Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, If in two weeks I don't see the arabic script of "Mustafa kamal" in the wiki article, Me and my brothers the Imazighen will get rid of your arabic script in Zidane's article and ALL, I say ALL, Berber personalities aricles.

(the previous paragraph sounds like another threat, wiki should not stand for threats)

To facilitate your task, I'll write it down for you:

مصطفى كمال

You've got 15 days (that's a lot, but I know how lazy you are, that's why I'm giving you that much time) to copy and paste مصطفى كمال in Atatruk's article.Toira 19:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

(the previous line sounds like yet another threat, wiki should not stand for threats)

As a person who is outside of the Berber, Arab and football cultures completely, all I can say is that this appears to be a nasty personal attack and it is contrary to the rules of conduct of Wikipedia. Please be more calm and argue your points respectfully and using rational arguments. It would be unfortunate it this became a flame-war and a hate-fest and an administrator had to be brought in to calm everything down. Please also note that new topics should go at the BOTTOM of the page, not the top. - BalthCat 21:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually Toira and his/her Imazighen brothers have a point with Mustafa Kemal. However, I think that the difference lies in that Turkey has adopted the latin alphabet completely whereas Arabic script is still official in Algeria. Kabyles should not feel menaced by the Arabic script in the same way as Europeans do not feel menaced by Arabic numbers. Persians use the same script, so do Pakistanis. This doesnt turn them into Arabs. Arabic script is an international script which transcends Arab ethnicity. The latin script is used all over the world. Is that part of a "Roman" conspiracy to co-opt the world? Presenting Zidane's name in the co-official script of the country of his origin will not present him as less Kabyle. It will, however, present him as less Algerian and YOU, as an Algerian, should not allow this.

I hope I have explained myself clearly, Toira and that you will agree with me. --Burgas00 22:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but Berber is a national language in Algeria (thanks to the 130 kabyle victims...), there is also an official institution called HCA (Haut commissariat à l'amazighité), it's job is to promote Berber language, and they have adopted a berber-latin script to teach berber as a non-compulsary language. So your idea of what is berber in Algeria is wrong.

Kabyles don't use Neo-Tifinagh, we improved the tifinagh script for "symbolism" and "fetishism", that's it, we are not going to these hyroglyphs (lybico berber script has ceased to develop 2000 years ago) to please the Baathists. We use the Latin script because it is our choice, not because it is a conspiracy.

And as an Algerian, I do not feel concerned with Arab culture or anything related to it, "Arabness" does not equal "Algerianess", both of my grand mothers never knew how to write or speak arabic (or any other variant of this language), neither did my aunts... where they algerians or aliens?

And yes, I feel agressed by this script, This country has forced my parents to put me in an Arabic school, I felt forced to study in their schools, I felt forced to study their religion and I felt forced to study their shi3r, their language and their Arabian history. So yes, I get nauseas when I see their script, it's not my fault, it's their fault.

During the riots of 2001, Kabyles have painted with white paint everything written in arabic script, Even now, if you go to my village, you'll see that anything written by the administration is covered with paint. Recently, there was an egyptian "mufti" (Bla-Bla-ist) who came to Kabylie, he complained about the non-existence of Arabic writings in the streets and especially the shops.. (these guys risk to pay a fine if they don't write in Arabic, but the government is too coward to try anything), So yes, we feel agressed.--Toira 14:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Though i sympathise with your plight Toira, I simply do not agree with your stance that Wikipedia should be the place that you promote your political agenda.--202.133.70.3 15:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there a wikipedia in your language, Toira? If not, shouldnt one be created?

Just a thought. I was reading something that came out of the EU recently and it had something to do with the English language and how it is "readily acceptable". I think there might have been a sort of EU like state run by Arabs long ago over the peoples of north africa. Arabic seemed to be just an administrative language and not the lingua franca of the Kabyle. It just seems silly to argue about it now in wiki in an article about Zidane. In Scotland Gaelic is mostly transposed by English and its not a big problem if someone wrote ones name in English rather then the archaic Gaelic script. Arabic is the administrative language of Algeria therefor its not rude to write Zidanes name in Arabic. Just another point, most Arabs of Algeria are Berber or partially Berber. Just as one in Scotland is partially English through intermarriage. But English is used because its easiest and administrative national language. Theres no problem in fighting for your right to adopt Kabyle or any other language you want but its not becoming to argue because someone wrote Zinedine's name in Arabic (which his name is Arabic anyway). When one realizes his name is Arabic anyway, your arguement falls apart.

--Burgas00 15:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Write Zidane's name in Tifinagh

Unlike my Toira, I will not threaten anything. Only present a challenge. Present Zidane's name in Tifinagh. Do you write Tifinagh? If not. Are you willing to write Tifinagh in Latin letters as a reflection of Latinization since you concider Arabic a result of Arabization. You can pick one of the three. 1) pure Tifinagh 2) Arabization or 3) Latinization. If you pick #1 then the case will rest. If you pick 2 or 3 then your argument falls apart for the removal of Arabic. :-)

I think it is clear that WIKI must remain consistent and coherent. Otherwise, any Tom, Dick and Harry would come and subvert this learning media for the sole purpose of of "misrepresentation " and "misappropriation" as contributors stated. Evidence based researched contribution must be carefully vetted by peers and acknowledged reliable sources. The outrage and objections over the arab scripting of Zidane's name is indicative of the importance of objectivity. It is not just a matter of sensitivity. Untruths have been used by some to justify 'arabification'. The example of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk cited by Toira, along many others,is eloquent enough. Burgas, you must realise there is no consensus and evidence is provided to substantiate the critic and objections. The discussion is very informative. Berbers have not inserted biased or propaganda material promoting their case or plight. Let's be fair and stop patronising. Some unjust and derisive comments can be provocative. Britonia 22:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Zidane's Name

WHAT IS THIS OBSESSION WITH TURNING ZIDANE INTO AN ARAB BY DISPOSSESSING HIM OF HIS FAMILY NAME OF ZIDANE?

IT LOOKS AS THOUGH THE PANARABISTS OF THE BAATH PARTY ARE ON THE HUNT TO ASSIMILATE THE WORLD TO ARABS.

THE POOR KABYLES AND BERBERS ARE HARASSED EVEN ON THE WEB.

 IT IS ABOUT TIME THAT  PLURALITY AND DIVERSITY IS RESPECTED.

 IT WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE TO SPELL ZIDANE'S NAME IN TIFINAGH THE BERBER ALPHABET. BUT WHAT FOR?
 
 HOWEVER, BERBERS ARE ONLY SAYING ENOUGH OF THIS RIDICULOUS ATTEMPT AT MAKING POLITICAL ETHNIC GAINS

BY INSIDIOUS DEVIOUS MEANS TO THE UNAWARE.

READ ANDREW HUSSEY'S ARTICLE ON ZIDANE'S CLEAR STATEMENTS ABOUT HIS IDENTITY.

Clarification Zidane's Name is Arabic but he is not an Arab

This is an informational resource so when we state Zidane's name is Arabic that is all we mean. We mean no disrespect to his Kabyle origin. So read carefully.

1) Zinedine Zidane is a French born man of Kabyle origin.

2) Zinedine Zidane's parents are Kabyle Algerians and French citizens.

3) The Kabyle people are a Berber (Amazigh) people of North Africa.

4) The Amazigh language the Kabyle speak is called Taqbaylit, not Arabic.

5) Zinedine Yazid Zidane's name is of Arabic origin. Zayn-u-din Yazid Zaydan.

An Arabic name does not mean one is of Arab origins.

The famous Salem Chaker has an Arabic name while he is a famous Berberist, linguist, cultural and political activist, writer, and director of Berber at the Institut National des Langues et Civilisations Orientales in Paris. His name is Arabic, that does not mean he is not Amazigh.

Other Famous Amazigh with Arabic names.

Tariq bin Ziyad, Krim Belkacem, Saadeddine Othmani, the singer Karim Ziad, Mohamed Chafiq, Cherif Khedam, Cheikh El Hasnaoui, Walid Mimoun, many have pointed out that even the football player Moustapha Hadji is of Amazigh origin as well. The famous Rif leader Muhammad 'Abd al-Karim Al-Khattabi.

Many Iranians, Pakistanis, Malay/Indonesians, Central Asians, and Africans have Arabic names. It does not mean they are Arabs.

Some of Zidane's children are named Italian names, but that does not make them Italian. Rather, ethnically they are Amazigh & Spanish.

Zayn-u-din Yazid Zaydan just happens to have an Arabic name.

We hope this clears things up.

By the way I love the first paragraph on the main page. It is put together very clearly. I had put the correct Arabic pronounciation of his name and it was taken out in favor for Arabic writing & Algerian Arabic phonetics thing. I agree with you, wonderful job.

ZIDANE NAME SOLUTION

I am the one that put the correct Arabic pronounciation of Zidane's 100% Arabic name. When it was removed in favor of the term "Algerian Pronounciation" I thought that is nice, and I agreed to that. Yet still the one gentleman who feels oppressed because the Arabic is on the site and brings up every topic except what is relevant. I have an even better solution. Arabic is put there not as he says as "oppression" actually I would love to see his name written in Tifinagh if he can get it. That is my DUTY for him. To hopefully find his name in Tifinagh and post it. As for now I have a nice solution because actually it is only him who has some kind of hate. While we here at wiki all love information of all kinds. He put Algerian Pronounciation but I even top him to emphisize Amazigh Kabyle! So I put "Taqbaylit Pronounciation"... EVEN BEFORE ARABIC.

Taqbaylit is the proper name of Kabyle language, not "Kabyle". I have made "Taqbaylit" a button and I need someone to redirect that button to Kabyle language page. Actually I think Kabyle language page should be changed to be called Taqbaylit and have Kabyle language redirect to it. (not the other way around).

Here is the change.....

Zinedine Zidane (born 23 June 1972), Taqbaylit pronounciation: Zīn ed-Dīn Zīdān, Arabic: زين الدين یزید زيدان‎, (IPA: [ˌzineˈdin ziˈdan]),[2] popularly nicknamed Zizou (pronounced [zi'zu])

He needs to understand that this is Wiki, a beautiful place to learn and not a place for hate just because Zidane has an Arabic name.

Categories: Talk archives

Talk:Zinedine Zidane/Archive 2

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Correct spelling?

Clarifications

We should remove the Arabic script on the basis that he was born in France and is of Berber parents.

More ruckus over the Arabic transliteration

Write Zidane's name in Tifinagh

Zidane's Name

Clarification Zidane's Name is Arabic but he is not an Arab

ZIDANE NAME SOLUTION

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