Talk:Zinaida Serebriakova

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[edit] Name spelling

The precedent orthograph was wrong, so you should write Zinaida Serebriakova as the artist used to signed herself on her works. On her french passport she was Zinaïde Sérébriakoff, born Lanceray. I have made also some changes on the biography. I am the little niece of the artist (my great grand mother was the sister of Evgeni Aleksandrovitch Lanceray), so I quite well know her life, and where are the paintings. But any new informations are welcome. thank you. Catherine Boncenne

"Serebryakova" is one of the spellings used in English, just as "Serebriakova" is. Wikipedia uses the former instead of the latter because it complies with more generic WP:RUS guidelines. Please do not change this spelling back; it is not incorrect.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the author, but I think that Catherine's edits were OK. The difference between "Serebryakova" and "Serebriakova" is not material, although I would always prefer the former. Catherine, you should reflect that spelling rules in English and French differ. There is no reason why the Anglophone project should adopt French transliteration. --Ghirla -трёп- 15:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
A footnote could be added noting these variants (the article already notes the Lanceray variant). I looked at the paintings on Commons, but couldn't read her sig on any, although there appears to be a sig in the lower left corner of "Lit by the Sun. 1928". The sig on this nude, which is not on Commons, appears to have an "i" in it. Is there any way her French passport sig could be made verifiable? Even better would be scan of a handwritten letter showing her sig — that would make a wonderful addition to the article. --Jtir 17:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The article on Yuri Annenkov notes that he is sometimes credited as Georges Annenkov (e.g. for his work on films). Sometimes he signed his work G. Annenkoff (The article does not say this though). I recall seeing a hand-written sig spelled this way, but the best I could find is this:
Drawing of Dimitri Tiomkin by Georges Annenkoff Caption: Georges Annenkoff (1889-1974).
--Jtir 18:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Here is an etching with the handwritten sig G. Annenkoff. --Jtir 19:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
My point actually was that we should at all times use transliteration derived via WP:RUS, unless verifiable evidence can be presented that the subject of the article preferred her name to be spelled differently in English or if a different variant is widely used in English literature. From what I've seen so far, both spellings are used in English, so sticking with WP:RUS makes sense unless the other clause (verifiable evidence) can be satisfied. Any takers?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I completely agree. And that is why I was looking at the available paintings for sigs. They do not have enough resolution unfortunately, but that is more of a technical matter. I added a footnote anyway just to show how this matter can be resolved and tagged it with a {{cn}}. The Yuri Annenkov example was intended to show that he changed his name, but the article did not change its name. Of course redirects can also be used for name variants. What do you think about the footnotes in both articles? --Jtir 20:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I have nothing against footnotes; those are always a good solution, even if only a temporary one. If you can confirm the other spelling variant with sources, I will obviously not object to changing the spelling in the article and moving it to a new title altogether. Thanks for taking time to research this.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
As the English governement used the spelling that I gave : Sérébriakoff and Lanceray, I see no reason to take the actual english transcription beside Zinaida herself signed Sérébriakova, so you have to respect this orthograph. Her daughter, Catherine Sérébriakoff, still alive, is asking to respect this, so be kind to do so no matter how the phonetic transcription is spelling it now. I will soon 2 samples of her signature in russian and in roman caracters. I have allready send a official french paper. Boris Sérébriakoff was also Catholic. Don't forget that her mother was a Lanceray!
The other very important, and in fact more important is that I have made some changes because of errors : She is not a relative of Anna Akhmatova, and never was. Her husband Boris, son of the sister of her father, died of typhus, contracted in bolchevic jails. Her daughter Tatiana enter the ballet academy. This was the time of her theatric series of paintings. No one of the Lanceray was actor, but After Tatiana's wedding, she was painting decors for theater. Zinaida never came back in Russia, in 1947 she became French. Most of her works are still in France, but she send a great choice in Russia. Please note, every change are made with verification in the family archives. Cboncenne 08:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, Catherine, for your thorough explanation. Once you can provide the samples, you are welcome to restore the changes citing those samples as references. Please understand that it is not the issue of us believing or not believing what you are saying (you are obviously very knowledgeable about the subject); it's the matter of Wikipedia's policy which requires to use default conventions unless there is proof/references sufficient to deviate. Signature samples, as well as her daugter's request, of course, will be a more than sufficient proof to us. Thank you again for your contributions and patience. Sincerely,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How did Serebryakova's signature change over her career?

Here are two works that show she signed her name in Cyrillic script.

She emigrated to France in 1924, when she was 40.

How did she sign her works after 1924? --Jtir 22:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

There are three nudes here that are signed and dated. These are all post-1924:

My conclusion is that she signed in Cyrillic script before 1924 and in Roman script after 1924.
My conjecture is that she used the Roman sig because she was in France. --Jtir 14:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

She used both signatures in Cyrillic and Roman caracters until the end of her life depending if she was with Russian people or other. Her nicknames where Zina or Zika. Cboncenne 08:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank-you for clarifying her use of Cyrillic and Roman and for confirming her nicknames. Wikipedia has a policy of requiring verifiability for information in its articles. Do you know of a biography or journal article that could be used for this purpose. I have a short bibliography from Yablonskaya (1990), but I don't know what those sources say. --Jtir 16:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is another still life showing the artist's signature. It is annotated as follows:

11am Monday 28 Nov 2005 Russian Sale
41. SEREBRIAKOVA, ZINAIDA (1884-1967)
Still Life with a Basket of Pears, signed and dated 1932, oil on canvas, 54 by 65 cm.

Authenticity certificate from Catherine Boncenne, niece of the artist and Head of the Serebriakova Trust.

60,000-80,000 Pounds

--Jtir 16:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I am preparing the official website of Zinaida Serebriakova, It will be on line very soon. As for biography and bibliography you should refer to her letters published by V.P. KNIAZEVA in 1987, Moscow by "Izobrazitel'noe iskusstvo" and Zinaida Serebriakova by A.A. Rusakova in 2006, Moscow Izdatel'stvo "Iskusstvo -XXI vek" whitch we verified. Both are in russian. If you need any informations I will be very pleased to help in that specific domain.Catherine Boncenne 16:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Her signature in Latin script is on the cover of Rusakova. There is a cover image here. It seems to read "Zinaida Serebriakoff". --Jtir 10:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Was she called Zina?

BabelFish translations from this site. Some of these details may not be in the article. --Jtir 18:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Zina
  • But difficulty consists in the fact that the marriages of close relatives were not encouraged by church.
  • Moreover Zinaida - Roman Catholic religion, Boris - orthodox.
  • In the first years after revolution in the country the lively exhibition activity began. Serebryakov she became a participant in several exhibitions in Petrograd. But in 1924 it became the exponent of the large exhibition of Russian depictive skill in America, which was arranged for the purpose of material aid to artists. Of 14 presented to Zinaida yevgen'evnoy works two were sold immediately. To the rescued money it, burdened by the concerns about the family (on her hands - four children and mother), is solved to the foreign trip for the purpose of the device of exhibition, obtaining of orders. In the beginning of September of 1924 of Serebryakov it left to Paris.
  • В подготовке страницы использованы очерки из книги В.Д.Берлина "Мне б только растревожить старину...". Харьков: Веста. Изд-во "Ранок", 2004.
  • In the preparation of page are used the descriptions from the book Of v.D.Berlina "to me b to only alarm old times...". Kharkov: West. Publishing house Of "wounds", 2004.

Her nicknames were for the family Zika and also Zina. see "Zinaiada Serebriakova, Pisma, Sovremenniki o khudozhnitse" V.P. Kniazeva, Moskva, "Izobrazitel'noe iskusstvo" 1987 ISBN (or wat it was at that time) 1903020000-1333 024(01)87 12-87 Catherine Boncenne 11:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for providing a source for her nicknames. This book seems to be the same as the one already in the references, so I have cited it in the footnote. --Jtir 13:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] transliterating more names

What is the WP:RUS transliteration of these names?

  • Лансере
  • Бенуа

There may be more names on the site where I found these. --Jtir 19:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

"Lansere" and "Benua". Although considering what Catherine said above, these variants would hardly be applicable.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Fortunately, WP:RUS allows some room for exceptions.
The article Eugene Lanceray has the rather confusing lead: "Yevgeny Yevgenievich Lansere, also spelled Lanceray ...".
There are redirects from Eugene Lansere, Yevgeny Yevgenyevich Lansere, and Lansere family.
So it looks like WP editors prefer "Lanceray".
Catherine uses this spelling too.
Alexandre Benois has redirects from Alexander Benua and some variants on his first name.
ATM the article is consistently using "Lancere" "Lansere". Should it be changed to use "Lanceray", with "Lancere" "Lansere" identified as a variant? I was thinking of adding brief footnotes about these names, including the Cyrillic spelling. --Jtir 20:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Jtir, I would need to take a closer look before I make a final recommendation, but the general guidelines are as follows. If a person is known under a certain spelling of his/her name in English texts, then that version always takes precedence, although what qualifies as the "most common English name" and what its criteria are may be debatable. If there is no established English name, then WP:RUS kicks in. Transliteration variations are allowed insofar as there is sufficient proof that the person him/herself preferred a particular spelling or if there are other compelling reasons not to use WP:RUS (again, no strict guidelines here; at the moment it's all pretty much on a case-by-case basis).
From what I understand (and I might be wrong), variants "Lanceray" and "Benois" are preferred in English, which is why the articles' titles are what they are. The redirects, of course, should stay. Hope this helps.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I was only asking about changing the spelling in Zinaida Serebryakova to consistently use "Lanceray". --Jtir 20:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
From what I've seen so far, it would make perfect sense. Sorry I misunderstood what you needed. Thanks.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I made the changes and added a footnote. Please let me know if you have any concerns. --Jtir 21:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] translation of titles in References

I have added these two Russian language titles to the references. Could someone translate the title of the first and the description of the second, so they can be added as annotation? --Jtir 22:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

AUTHOR       Serebriakova, Zinaida Evgenevna, 1884-1967.
TITLE        Zinaida Serebriakova : pisma, sovremenniki o khudozhnitse /
               avtor-sostavitel V.N. Kniazeva ; avtor primechanii iU. N.
               Podkopaeva.
PUBLISHER    Moskva : Izobrazitelnoe iskusstvo, 1987.

RUSAKOVA, A.: Zinaida Serebrjakova.: 1884-1967 . M., Iskusstvo-XXI vek, 2006. ISBN 5-98051-032-X.
    Geb., Grossformat, Schutzum., Farbabb., Fotos, Namenreg., Sum., 374 S. , 130,00 Euro
Illjustrirovannaja monografija peterburgskogo iskisstvoveda A.A. Rusakovoj
    posvjascena tvorceskoj i ziznennoj sud'be zamecatel'noj russkoj chudoznicy Z.E. Serebrjakovoj.
Title of the first: Zinaida Serebryakova: letters, contemporaries about the painter / Author/complier: V. N. Knyazeva; annotator: U. N. Podkopayeva
Description of the second: Illustrated monograph of St. Petersburg art critic A. A. Rusakova about the creative development and life of a remarkable Russian painter Z. Ye. Serebryakova.

Second opinion is welcome.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 13:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I have added annotation to both titles based on your translations. FYI, the full bibrecs are in Talk:Zinaida Serebryakova/Sources. --Jtir 20:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Both those books are very reliable. The first on was made with the help of Zinaida's daughter Tatiana, the second one was made with us (the family) and we have given for it a lot of inedit pictures! With the signature "Zinaida Serebriakova"!!!! Catherine Boncenne 17:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where did ZS travel?

I have a source that says ZS travelled to Algeria.

"Serebryakova travelled widely, visiting Brittany, Algeria and Morocco, and continued to paint popular life in a realist style." Yablonskaya (1990), p. 50.

Is there is more authoritative source that describes her travels, preferably in English? --Jtir 17:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

1) Her daughter Catherine who still alive told me positively that she never went to Algeria!. 2) No traces in family archives of a trip in Algeria, nor in her letters to her children in Russia. At that time it was quite difficult for her to travel especially with a Nansen Passport. She needed a visa for each travel. 3) Not a single plainting nor a sketche of Algeria. Again, as a member of the family I can assure you of that fact.Catherine Boncenne 16:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of the article

I propose to change the name of the article from Zinaida Serebryakova to Zinaida Serebriakova. Serebryakova lived most of her life outside of Russia in country with the Latin script. She herself seemed to use Serbriakova spelling. Her relatives prefer Serbriakova spelling. Google check show that both spellings have almost identical usage (32K for Serebryakova vs 26K for Serebriakova on the web, 7/7 for books, 8/11 for Scholar, etc.). WP:RUS is arguably non-applicable here since she lived long enough outside Russia to choose her own preferable spelling. We could also use the full French Sérébriakoff spelling, but I would prefer to avoid diacritics if possible. Any thoughts?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alex Bakharev (talk • contribs) .

I support providing Catherine above eventually provides samples of her signatures (just a formality, but it makes me feel better to have formal proof).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I can provide all the signatures you want with that spelling but I do not give the rights to publish them on the net. Again I am from the family and we know how we spell our names and the names of our relatives! I have given allready sources of bibliography : "Zinaida Serebriakova" Moscow 2006, Izdatel'sstvo XXI vek. You can also check on the sales. Iegor Hotel des Encans in Montreal, Chrities, Sotheby's. Beside I am making the certificate for the sales. Catherine Boncenne 16:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Catherine, thank you again for taking time to respond. I just want to make sure you understand that (and I take liberty to talk for everyone who participated in the discussion here so far) no one here suspects that you are not who you say you are. However, since we only have your word, solid proof would be helpful, if only to those who may stumble upon this discussion page in future. Please don't take it too close to heart that we insisted on having proof—we are just making sure that the information and spellings used in the article are correct.
We also are not asking you to release any rights on any materials in your possession into public domain. It would be great if you were able to do so, but it is not our right to push you into that; the final decision is, and always will be, yours.
I don't have ready access to the bibliography you supplied, so I am leaving the task of checking it to other disputants, who might have such access. If there is anything else more readily available, it'd be great if you could point us in that direction, but otherwise that would have to suffice. Thank you once more for your patience. Also, you might want to add your vote to this section to formally support the change of the article's name. Sincerely,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I can understand you very well, but as an authority for the works of Zinaïda Serebriakova, und being an author myself see publication in french " Les peintres russes en Bretagne" editions Palentines 2006, Musée département Breton - Quimper" Catalogue of exhibition june-september 2006....Catherine Boncenne 17:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Would you happen to have that book's ISBN, please? Thank you!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
ISBN 2-911434-56-0 Catherine Boncenne 17:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I've put a bibrec and links in Talk:Zinaida Serebryakova/Sources. --Jtir 21:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I have applied WP:IAR as an extension to WP:BLP and moved the article. Her relatives want the article to be named Serebriakova. They are in contact with the WP:OFFICE. We should have strong reasons to resist the renaming of the article and I do not see anything convincing. Alex Bakharev 23:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide more details re the WP:OFFICE contact? --Jtir 18:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
And what was the point of working through WP:OFFICE if no one here objects to the article having been already renamed?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I suppose the people who made the complaint about the title of the article don't know or care about taking part in these somewhat esoteric conversations "behind the scenes." Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 19:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This may be what is meant. --Jtir 13:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Zinaida used both signatures in Russian and in latin all her life. In the inventary of her atelier (not published) I have both version equaly. In fact it depending to whom she made the painting but abslolutly not of where she lived. So please change the note again.Catherine Boncenne 11:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yablonsky

We did not check this article. Could some one send me a copy of this article. The problem is up to now a lot of thing where published without checking of the family. The archives, very rich, because she did not see 2 of her childrens after 1924 and she and both brother and sister who where living with her had correspondance with them is the only one that we can trust. We have also all the official papers, Nansen Passport, Passports for travelling, Catalogues of exhibitions, etc... to check every thing. Catherine Boncenne 21:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yablonskaya, M.N. (1990) is an English language book (translated from the Russian) and is already listed here: Zinaida Serebriakova#References. Yablonskaya lists eight references in her bibliography, but it is not entirely clear which one she used for her statement re Algeria. There are footnotes for nearby sentences citing:
  • Benois, A., 'Zinaida Serebryakova', Aleksandr Benois Reflects (Aleksandr Benua razmyshlyaet), Moscow 1968.
--Jtir 22:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

We are cheking "Benois's Reflects", It is possible that the boat going from France to Marocco went trough Algier, but she did not stay there or travel.Catherine Boncenne 09:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC) After verification, Benois in "Aleksandr Benois Relects" does not mentionned at all Algeria but he discribe the exhibition at the Gallery Charpentier with beautifull portraits of types from Marrocco and the Atlas (montains of Marroco).Catherine Boncenne 09:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some links to check

- Mangoe 21:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] copyedit of article

Well, I took up the challenge and cleaned up the article at least to some extent (given my total ignorance of either Serebriakova or Russian). I leave it to others to judge whether to untag it. Awien 22:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC) [Copied from User talk:Jtir. --Jtir 16:07, 21 May 2007 (UTC)]

Wow! Thanks! I untagged it. After looking at the diffs, I must compliment you on your attention to detail and your vocabulary.
(I never would have thought to change "Britannia's" to "Breton".)
  • I am fine with Benois' sister. (One more "s" and we would be sssizzling. :-))
  • Did you mean to drop the bit about Boris being a student when they married? (That's how I interpreted the sentence, anyway.)
  • The last para has her dying and then sending paintings to Russia. Maybe there could be a separate para on her legacy. In the exlinks section there is a note about auction results. There is also a recently published book by Rusakova (2006) that appears to be nicely illustrated. (It's in the Refs, and there are links to images of the cover there.)
--Jtir 16:07, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

It's I who thank you for calling Serebriakova to my attention! I'm impressed, and I'll be looking for her work next time I'm in Paris. (Mme Boncenne, if you're reading, where can I see her paintings?)

  • Britannia's / Breton is in my field.
  • About Boris being a student, I felt that what was probably meant was that the couple were both students when they married, but since that wasn't explicit, I thought the fact that he was a student belonged to his bio rather than hers.
  • Changed the order of death / donation of paintings.

Awien 16:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. OK re Boris; the best sources are in Russian, so I don't know if I can fact check this detail. Thanks for tweaking the last para.
FYI, there was an exposition of Russian painters in Quimper at Le Musée départemental breton, 17 juin-1er octobre 2006. There is a bibrec here. It doesn't say what painters were exhibited.
--Jtir 18:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)