Talk:Zielona Góra

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[edit] Transport?

A few bits of information that could help fill out the transport section: -Does the town have a main train station? Are there several train stations? -Are there bus services to nearby towns? major cities? -Is the town located on anu major roads? Where do they come from/go to? -Is there public transport in the town? Buses? Trams? If somebody is able to provide this information in simple Polish I will translate. Thanks. - Adz 09:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I can write in simple english - pls translate it :) ZG has one train station with services to major polish cities. Due to location of ZG, many trains start routes in ZG (ie. train: ZG-Poznań-Gdańsk-Gdynia, ZG-Wrocław-Katowice-Kraków-Przemyśl, ZG-Poznan-Warsaw-Terespol). The same with bus services. There are several companies that provides bus services. Private ones offer routes only to nearby towns, and ex state-run company (PKS) provides routes to major cities in Poland and to Berlin. ZG is located on E-65 E-road. Public trasport in the town: only buses (~40 routes). Kotasik 20:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edit warring

There seems to be a lot of minor editing and reversion lately. Let's try and iron out the differences here.

• About Lyceum/Grammar School - I don't think many people would understand Lyceum. Perhaps non-Brits wouldn't understand grammar school either. Maybe we should simply go for High School (or General High School).
• About Zielona Góra/Grunberg - some recent edits seems to have the goal of "promoting" one of these names at the expense of the other, which seems a bit pointless. As a relatively neutral observer, I think the way the article is worded at the moment (following my last revert) is reasonable. Of course it would be nice to have more references.--Kotniski (talk) 14:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Lyceum is a very specific type of educational system. It is between grammar school and a kind of technical school. I am not sure if there exists an equivalent, but this type of school facility is not rare in the area of central Europe.

That may be, but calling it Lyceum won't help anyone understand what it is (unless it's linked to an article on the subject). High School seems to be the nearest equivalent in internationally-understood English.There is now a link to the Lyceum article so that's OK.--Kotniski (talk) 14:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand this >>Kirchenbücher (church books)<< as long as wikipedia is not a dictionary.

I agree, unless the German word can be shown to have some special significance. And "church records" would probably be a better term.--Kotniski (talk) 14:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC) - Changes made--Kotniski (talk) 17:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

>>Grünberg remained a Prussian and German city until 1945<< per naming convention Zielona Gora should be used or simply town to accomplish NPOV. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 14:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the reader deserves to be reminded at this point what the city was known as during that period (and through most of its history). There is no POV involved - that was simply its name then, just as ZG is its name now.--Kotniski (talk) 14:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Then the reader deserves to know that it was known as Zielona Góra before 1526, it leads to nowhere, it heats up POV only. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 14:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If that was its name to 1526 (which would require some references I suspect), then certainly it should be mentioned. But two wrongs don't make a right. In fact the history section is all a bit of a mess anyway, the information seems incomplete and out of sequence. --Kotniski (talk) 15:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

So I would leave town for now. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 15:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the German name: he was first recorded in 1302 and appears exclusively in later documents. The oldest preserved seal of the town with the transcript "Civitatis : Gruninberg" dates from 1400.

• 1318: Grinenberg
• 1329: Grunemberch
• 1376: Gruninberg
• 1382: Grünberg
• 1408: Grünberg
• 1417: Grünberg
• 1420: Grunenberg
• 1421: Grünneberg
• 1426: Gruneberg
• 1473: Grünberg
• 1505: Grunenberg

Source linked below. Karasek (talk) 17:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Exceptional town

This is truly a exceptional town. Although part of Silesia, the town wasn't settled by Germans in the Middle Ages as every other (Lower) Silesian town. The town never adopted the Protestant faith as every other (Lower) Silesian town (which is particular striking since the Protestant court chaplan of Winter King Frederick V came from this town... and was German). The town was Germanized in just 50 years (2 generations!) between 1750 and 1800, something which also didn't happen anywhere else in (Lower) Silesia.
Maybe there should be an explanation why the history of this town differs so much from the rest of Silesia? Karasek (talk) 05:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I found a interesting book called "Die Geschichte der Stadt Grünberg" (History of Grünberg/Zielona Gora), printed 1922 in Grünberg (now Zielona Gora) and available for download here: http://zbc.uz.zgora.pl/dlibra/docmetadata?id=7831&from=pubstats (University of Zielona Gora).

And you know what? The history there is a completely different one?!

1) the town was Germanised in the Middle Ages. It's interesting that the current administration of the town (the referenced source in this article) claims the opposite.

2) the inhabitants did not remain Catholic, they became Protestants. The local reformer was Paul Lemberg, a personal friend of Luther.

3) the so called Trinity or Polish church, a small half timbered house, was built in 1590 for the Polish community in the surrounding villages, not for Poles in the town. Until 1651 it was a Lutheran church. After 1651 the church became Catholic, wasn't used anymore and slowly fell into ruins. The context is a completely different one. Not Germanisation but counter-reformation!

4) I don't know why a Polish Craftsmen Association has any importance to the article, since the entire district (Kreis) Grünberg had less then 5% Poles? (source: http://www.geschichte-on-demand.de/fremdspr_krei.html) Should we also mention every other Association, maybe even some who were much more important to the economic history of the city, like the Clothier Associations? Karasek (talk) 06:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, I hope you are not basing your knowledge about Poles and Polish history on books from interwar Germany. The country at that time was in the grip of nationalism so strong that it culminated in the idea that Poles are creatures below animal status that one needs to exterminate by the hands of German 'ubermenschen'. I wouldn't use books from that period as source for Polish history. Anyway Wikipedia notes that modern research is prefered to outdated one. As to the Polish inhabitants, I think it is obvious that as this article about Polish city needs to include information how original inhabitants survived the onslaught of Germanisation that threatened to eradicate their culture and identity and ended with 1945 when the Polish inhabitants faced revival from the Germanisation of their country. --Molobo (talk) 21:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You are joking, right? The current article is a travesty of the history of a (Lower) Silesian town, full of strange happenings that didn't occur in any other Silesian town?! If there never was a German settlement in the Middle Ages, if the Protestant reformation never happened there and if Germanisation took place in just 50 years in the 18th century, this should be explained, because this town differs so much from the history of the rest of Silesia. The illogicality here is really striking. There never was a Protestant reformation, but there are Protestant border churches around the region in the neighbouring countries? There was no German colonization, but at the same time old documents are written in german and the councilmen, priests and craftsmen have German names?

And this book is no valuable source? What should we use instead? Books from a country that, until a few years ago, denied that these regions were ever settled by Germans? This is ridiculous. Karasek (talk) 06:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Poland never "denied that these regions were ever settled by Germans". That's a lie! I went to school in the Communist Poland, so don't give me myths and legends. Give me sources. Space Cadet (talk) 19:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

My answer was as constructive as Molobos answer to my remarks. The only references right now in this article are modern Polish sources, and these references support a town history which is completely different from every other Lower Silesian town. Isn't it, for example, strange that this town was allegedly Polish until 1750, but old seals and documents of the late Middle Ages call this town Grünberg? Why have the councilors of the 16th century German names? Why are the priests of the 15th century German? Karasek (talk) 07:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have to continue to advise to read modern books and research. Reading books from interwar Germany that was just before declaring Poles subhuman, might give impression that Polish history of germanised areas is 'strange happening that didn't occur in any other silesian town". Could you tell me which country hided the truth about takeover of Polish, Baltic and Slavic territories by German invaders and colonists in Middle Ages ? It is fortunate that in Poland there was great deal of research regarding those lost lands and situation of conquered people(who however always remained even as minority). And is double fortunate that this terrible past is over and Poles and other nations can live free in their own lands without the threat of foreign takeover as it was in the past.Just five cents, after all Wikipedia isn't any discussion forum and we should concentrate on developing article about this Polish town.--Molobo (talk) 19:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Your "Interwar Germany" was also called Weimar Republic. A democratic republic with a liberal constitution. A liberal constitution which guaranteed a free press. A free press is marked by the fact that many kinds of thoughts are published. Liberal, communist, democratic, anarchic... whatever. Considering a publications like the monograph of this town, which is full of topnotch references (old documents from every period), as not reliable is a joke. Karasek (talk) 07:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)