Talk:Zhuge Liang/Archive 1
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Much talk of this man of wisdom has been like myth. For example, he was said to be able to trap an army of 100 000 soldiers by arranging stones or pebbles in a special pattern (bagua zhen). -- 20:13, 23 Nov 2003 . . User:218.94.36.117
Commenting 24.1.141.49
I heard that Zhuge Liang did get poisoned from the expedition, but he showed no sign of it until the northern campaign at Wuzhang. The gliding horse and wooden ox were types of automatic wheelbarrows which transfered supplies.
And as for my opinion, Zhuge Liang is just as well as Guan Zhong, Yue Yi, Sun Tzu (Sunzi sometimes refered as) and Wu Qi.
He shouldn't be murged with anyone, because his own reputation is more important than that of Dong Jue. They could add Zhuge Liang and mention his name in Dong Jue's article, but I am more than sure that Zhuge Liang does not need Dong Jue in his article.
Zhuge Zhan's artice could be murged with Dong Jue, but Zhuge Liang belongs to himself only. His son, however, and Dong Jue were perhaps more "closer" than Zhuge Liang and Dong Jue. I suggest we murge those two together and forget about murging Dong Jue and Zhuge Liang.
Comment from 24.1.141.49
Comment from a reader: It is my understanding that "gliding horse" and "wooden ox" are names for various types of wheelbarrow, but I'm not bold enough to exchange the given text for my own without independent confirmation. -- Originally posted to article by 24.1.141.49 (talk · contribs) at 04:00, 17 Jun 2005 UTC
The Southern Expedition it says that Zhuge Liang is sick during the campaign against Meng Huo, this is false. He is not sick at all. since he did not touch a drop of the poisonous water.
You know, I could swear that I was sick last weak, and I'm pretty sure I didn't touch the waters of Nan Zhong either. And you know, I could swear Zhuge Liang died of sickness and overexertion, and he didn't touch any poisonous waters in Wu Zhang. 74.12.7.56 14:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Joe Caron
The Strategist of the Han!
Although Zhuge Liang is the best strategist that has ever lived during the fall of the Han, many other great strategists and advisors such as him have come and gone. Even if the other mindful men did not measure up to Zhuge Liang, please give them the respect they deserve for having knowledge either about the land or the enemy they faced.
- Xu Shu: Advisor of Liu Bei
- Tian Feng: Yuan Shao's Strategist
- Guo Jia: Cao Cao's Advisor
- Zhou Yu: Rival of Zhuge Liang and Strategist of Wu
- Sima Yi: Rival of Zhuge Liang and Strategist for Wei
- Lu Xun: Lu Meng's Successor and Strategist for Wu
- Li Ru: Dong Zhuo's Advisor
- Zhuge Liang: Liu Bei's Strategist
- Pang Tong: Advisor of Liu Bei
- Xu You: Advisor of Yuan Shao
--Zhang Liao 07:19, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Agreed completely. Give a shout out to Lu Meng, too. He was a pretty competant mind. He was the Zhuge Liang to Lu Xun's Jiang Wei. (Except, Jiang Wei's track record is....not the greatest. Lu Xun on the other hand, haha.) 74.12.7.56 14:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Joe Caron
Copyright Violation
The "Zhuge Liang Complete Biography" and "Additional Commentary" sections appears to be a direct copy from this site (the site wasn't working at the time of writing this message, cached version available here). Thus, I have removed that section. Akamad 07:03, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
- OK, thanks. I didn't realize either it was a coypright violation. (That is because, actually, the quality of those sections wasn't high, and therefore I assumed that a Wikipedian had attempted to write those sections him/herself.) --Nlu 07:16, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
All of you have a big mistake
Zhuge Liang was great however He was actually a Politician not a stragetist as people mistakenly thought. This mistake is caused when people who have read the "Romance of the Three Kingdom" and mistakenly thought this book is a real history book.
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- Correction - He was Shu's de facto strategist before the kingdom of Shu was established. Sans the Kingdom, he would have no court to run. Furthermore, the SGYY (The romanticized version which a lot of people do read) has a strong bias towards Shu, as the author did. This is why people get the interpretation that he was more than he was. HOWEVER (and keep in mind, SGZ is the right source to go to, as you've said), he in all points was their strategist for a large portion of time, from when Liu Bei gained Zhuge Liang in his entourage, until they took Cheng Du, and established Shu as their Dynasty. Furthermore, Zhuge Liang is known to have led several missions, that are verified as having taken place (Attacks in Nan Zhong, Against Sima Yi in the Wu Zhang Plains.) So while you may be right that he WAS a politician, do not overlook the fact that he was also their strategist, for a large chunk of time, and later times in the future, after Cheng Du was captured. On the topic of the battle at Red Cliffs (Chi Bi), I'm not sure where you got the idea that the fire attack was credited solely to Zhuge Liang. The last time I read, it was a joint venture between Zhuge Liang, Zhou Yu, and Huang Gai, who suggested the fire attack himself. 74.12.7.56 14:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Joe Caron
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The most accurate book who contains the CORRECT imformation is "San Guo Zhi" wrote by a offical, 30 years after the death of Zhuge Liang. This book claimed the person who won the "battle of Red cliff" was Zhou Yu, not Zhuge Liang. Zhuge Liang never lead a army against the Cao Cao before Liu bei's death, and he didn't have the greatest military experience ( The northern Expedition is the prove, he made a lot of terrible dicision) To be continue deal to technical problem tommarow **Finish this off soon, because as it stands, this paragraph only has one point we already know: SGZ is right, and SGYY isn't. 74.12.7.56 14:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Joe Caron**
My issue with SGZ on ZgL is two-fold. 1) It is not known the extent of ZgL's involvement in Chibi. We know that the book of Wei and Shu give the credit of defeating Cao Cao to Liu Bei's army while the book of Wu gave the credit to Zhou Yu. **No one accredited Chi Bi solely to Zhuge Liang on this site. If you're going to comment, make it relevant. Go to GameFAQs or some RotK board if you want to dispute this. 74.12.7.56 14:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Joe Caron** 2) Chen Shou's father was inprisoned after Ma Su lost Jieting by ZgL, so it is not known how much of a vendetta he held towards ZgL. SGZ aside, other historical books about that era have put the Northern Campaigns in less worse light. Thus we should be careful in creating a biography based on one text.
Zhuge Liang: A Simpleton or Strategist
It is true that Zhuge Liang did not hardly ever participate in battles, but that did not mean he was not a strategist of war.
When Liu Bei allowed him to take control of his army for the first time, Zhuge Liang, which is from the novel, manage to defeat Cao Cao at the Ru Nan area known as the Bo Wan Po to halt their attack on Liu Bei. Also, during the Nanman Rebellion, Zhuge Liang went forth and ended Meng Huo's attack using only simple tactics against him. (The ambushes and winning over his comrads.) Now it is true that Zhuge Liang failed much when he looked towards the north to Wei area. The only mistake that he made for a commander is allowing Ma Su to be in charge of such an important area. (Jieting)
More or less, Zhuge Liang to a degree or less was a strategist regardless of who was better than him at the time. The only reason why he is highly seen as the best is he could foretell the events or ruses being used in battle that would happen. Examples of that would be his conflict with Zhou Yu and yes, all of that is from novel. But beside the novel, can you or I say who the real Zhuge Liang was? --Zhang Liao 18:07, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Not quite. As you may recall Zhuge Liang tried to lure out the great Sima Yi by sending him a gift of woman's clothing to enrage him. Obviously it makes no sense to do that unless you thought it was going to work. It didn't. Sima Yi saw through Zhuge Liang's scheme and stayed true to his defensive strategy. --Sima Yi
The union with Sun Quan broke down when Guan Yu retaliated on the Kingdom of Wu in 219 after the surprise attack of Lü Meng.
If Lu Meng launched a surprise attack then Guan Yu's retaliation was not the reason the union with Sun Quan broke down, this comment is misleading. I understand that Lu Meng struck first and it was Wu that broke the alliance (considering Guan Yu was attacking Fan castle of Wei at the time). Unless I'm missing something? Feel free to correct me. Just thought I'd point this out anyway.--RBlowes 00:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I can already tell that you read the Romance instead of the History. Lu Meng attacked Jing Zhou twice. The first time, Lu Meng took three castles. Liu Bei began to panic and he made a deal with Wu in which half of Jingzhou was returned to Wu. Afterwards, Guan Yu began to held a long grudge against Wu culminating in Lu Meng's second attack which took all of Jingzhou. --User:Haow 4:25 April 2006
The Event of Fan Castle
Sun Quan had long for the return of the Jing Province which Guan Yu guarded. It is true that the Wu ruler did break the alliance of the Wu and Shu treaty; however, the only reason why Sun Quan sent Lu Meng to attack Jing is because (If you read over the battle of Chi Bi and the events leading up to Guan Yu's assault on Fan Castle.) Liu Bei with Zhuge Liang's help manage to take over the Jing Province right when Zhou Yu, Commander-In-Chief, manage to send Cao Ren fleeing from the Nanjun territory. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
After Jing was still in control of Liu Bei's rule for quite some time, Sun Quan was still ever so upset that Liu Bei would not return the province even after Zhou Yu with Zhuge Liang's aid sent Cao Cao's forces back to Xu Chang. More or less, Sun Quan had only wanted Jing back, but due to Zhuge Liang's deft speaking and ability to understand people, the kingdom of Wu would had never gotten back Jing had Lu Meng and Lu Xun not decided to attack Guan Yu from behind. --Zhang Liao 22:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Merging
Apparently someone wants to merge this with Dong Jue. I don't believe it should be done, because they are not the same person. Cao Wei 01:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
- I am mildly against it, but it should be noticed that merger would be from Dong Jue into this article; in other words, what the editor was proposing is to effectively delete the Dong Jue article (apparently believing that Dong is not sufficiently notable?) and insert a couple lines in this article about Dong. --Nlu (talk) 02:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
The Dong Jue article doesn't have a lot of information, so it should probably be deleted but I don't know if it should be merged with Zhuge Liang or Jiang Wei...but since he was with Jiang Wei when he died it makes more sense to move it there?--Zhang Lmao 07:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- OK, perhaps put a {{mergeto}} and {{mergefrom}} flags on Dong Jue and Jiang Wei respectively? I don't think Dong Jue should be deleted because he is sufficiently notable as a general of a historical state, in my opinion -- far more notable than some of the junk biographies that somehow survive AfDs, for sure. --Nlu (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
There is NO WAY Zhuge Liang should be merged with anyone. His stance in history is far too amazing and glorified. I definitely veto - very strongly - against any merger with this page. Jazza 16:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
In fact, looking at the Dong Jue article now, it looks like someone has added information to it. That backs up the fact that he should stay in his own article. Cao Wei 15:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Dong Jue is another person. Why would someone make such suggestion? Would you merge "Ceasar" with "Antonio"?
Disagree - Reason: 2 different person. Period. HistoryManiac 10:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, why merging 2 different persons?
His being may be disputed; One would have to go over RotK again, to see if it's falsified. 74.12.7.56 14:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Joe Caron
Zhuge Liang's Video Game Apperances
I should add that I completely redid the gaming section, as it wasn't very clean. I elaborated on all the games Zhuge Liang can be found in. You can tell some Dynasty Warriors fanboy, like the ones you guys had to deal with, tainted it, because that's all it spoke about. No mention of the 'Romance of the Three Kingdoms' game, which dates back to NES. I'll venture around the TK articles, and fix whatever little mistakes the young'ns may have left. 74.12.7.56 14:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Joe Caron.
- I've drastically cut down on this section and lumped it with Legacy, because it's now too short to warrant a section of its own. I'm not convinced that describing Zhuge Liang's appearance and ability in a video game is particularly relevant to a better understanding of his cultural and historical role. I haven't played Dynasty Warriors, by the way, and since none of the previous content regarding that seemed relevant, I've removed any references to it.
- I've also removed the entire Huang Yueying section, since she has her own article with almost exactly the same content. Although it's missing in some of the content here, the section in this article was flagged for cleanup anyway, so I didn't bother moving anything across. The history's always there if sources and whatnot are found and the Huang Yueying article is cleaned up. --Omdal 12:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Original image
Crap!!! I accidently overwrote the original image of Zhuge Liang! Can somebody restore it?! Gamer Junkie 02:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- I was thinking how come we have replaced the original image with the one from the game.... --Cyktsui 02:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. I tried going back, but the image is already gone! Well, at least the game Zhuge looks almost identical to the real Zhuge... Gamer Junkie 02:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- I reverted the picture, you have to reupload the game image under a different name. _dk 07:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, dk. Kungming2, I'll re-upload the picture, and this time I'll pay closer attention. Gamer Junkie 08:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
