Talk:Zhou Enlai

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[edit] Education

What degree did Zhou Enlai get an Nakai? --Commander Keane 15:46, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm not too sure if/when he attended Nankai University so I've taken that out. The Chinese version says from 1913-1918 he studied at Nankai High School and Meiji University ("1913年至1918年在天津南开中学和日本的明治大学学习"). Nankai University was only founded in 1919. Incidently the Japanese version says he attended the department of government (政学部) at Meiji University. Kappa 18:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

                     Chou En-lai

Joe N-lie (Zhou Enlai) 1898-1976 Chief CCP Negotiator and Diplomat

The adopted eldest son of a well-to-do Tianjin family, Chou first came to national prominence during the May Fourth movement of 1919 when he led a raid on a local government office during the student protests against the humiliating Versailles Treaty. In 1920 Chou moved to France where he was active among radical Chinese students. In 1921 he became a member of the French Communist Party and spent the next two years traveling in Europe. Upon his return to China (via Moscow) he was appointed to the post of director of the political department of Whampoa Academy (Whampoa’s Comintern sponsors saw this posting as a way to balance Chiang Kai-shek’s right-wing nationalism). In the spring of 1927 Chou led the workers’ uprising in Shanghai and delivered the city to Chiang Kai-shek’s National Revolutionary Army in April. Chou managed to escape the white terror unleashed later that month and was forced into underground activities. (See April Purge.) He eventually made his way to the Kiangsi/Jiangxi base area and gradually began to shift his loyalty away from the more orthodox, urban-focused branch of the CCP to Mao’s new brand of rural revolution. This transition was completed early in the Long March, when in January 1935 Chou threw his total support to Mao in his power-struggle with the 28 Bolsheviks Faction. In the Yenan years Chou was active in promoting a united anti-Japanese front. As a result he played a major role in the Sian Incident, helped to secure Chiang Kai-shek’s release, and negotiated the Second CCP-KMT United Front. Chou spent the Sino-Japanese War as CCP ambassador to Chiang’s wartime government in Chungking/Chongqing and took part in the failed negotiations following WWII. As China’s Premier and Foreign Minister, Chou En-lai proved himself to be a brilliant statesman and the architect of PRC foreign policy. His death in 1976 sparked nationwide demonstrations of grief.

[edit] Half-mast at UN?

There's a popular story in China telling the United Nations at New York put the flag half-mast to honor and mourn Zhou upon his death. Could anybody confirm this? Just saying, its Guomindang not Kuomindang.

I think that's a myth created by the CCP to make themselves look more influential. From what I've heard, the Chinese flag at Tianan men was lowered to half-mast for only one day before the Gang of Four dealt away with it. At the time, there was deep resentment on the part of the Gang of Four against Zhou Enlai and since the Gang of Four still carried huge influence in the Cultural Revolution, it should not be a surprise they ordered people to stop mourning for Zhou.

Let's check on that, but I really wouldn't be surprised if the UN did lower the flag to half-mast. Unlike Mao, Deng, Jiang, and Li Peng, Zhou had a largely positive image with the entire Chinese population, as well as the best reputation internationally for his diplomacy and promotion of peace. I'd say check on it, before making conclusions either way. Colipon+(T) 04:08, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

See the United Nations Flag Codeand Regulations(1967)[1].

The following is the text of the United Nations Flag Code as amended by the Secretary-General on 11 November 1952:

V. MOURNING ......Upon the death of a Head of State or Head of Government of a Member State, the United Nations Flag will be flown at half-mast at United Nations headquarters, at the United Nations Office at Geneva and at United Nations offices located in that Member State. On such occasions, at Headquarters and at Geneva, the United Nations Flag will be flown at half-mast for one day immediately upon learning of the death. If, however, Flags, have already been flying on that day they will not normally be lowered, but will instead be flown at half-mast on the day following the death; .....

Examples:

Stalin: "At United Nations headquarters, the flags of all 60 member nations were taken down, and the sole flag of the U.N. fluttered at half-mast."[2].
Mahatma Gandhi:"The United Nations flew the flag at half mast, and the Security Council cancelled all meetings to pay their respects to Gandhi."[3]
Laurent Desire Kabila:"On Tuesday, the UN flag will be flown at half mast in observance of official mourning for the late President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Laurent Desire Kabila, whose funeral will take place that day in Kinshasa. As is the custom, no other flags will be flown that day."[4]
Fahd bin 'Abdul-'Aziz):"Today, the UN flag is at half-mast in honor of the late King." [5].

--Skyfiler 20:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not "a myth created by the CCP to make themselves look more influential", but a fact that has been reported by western news agencies such as The Reuters. Moreover, Zhou's case is not "an exception" because Zhou was Head of Chinese government upon death. On the contrary, it's an exception when United Nations put flags half-mast upon Deng's death in 1997, because Deng at the time had retired from any government positions for years.

[edit] German child

Can anyone give me a source where we can see that this sentence has any real background? I believe it is originly from the german Wikipedia, where the author stated he himself had interviewed a college mate of that son, but there's no more indication of this story and the user didn't even signed. If there's no stronger indication for this tale I would like to see this sentence removed. --Philopp 14:17, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too soon to tell

In today's Guardian there is an excellent essay by Timothy Garton Ash about Tony Blair's foreign policy (and the difficulties of assessing it) which includes this paragraph:

Of course there is something absurd about such instant assessments - or, in this case, pre-assessments. At such moments, accomplished elder statesmen invariably quote Zhou Enlai's answer when he was asked for his view of the significance of the French revolution: "It's a little too soon to say." I would be grateful to any reader who can point me to a reliable first-hand source for this famous quotation, since I remain unconvinced that Zhou Enlai actually said it. No matter; the reason people keep quoting such remarks is that, even if the person they are ascribed to never spoke those words, we feel that someone should have, since they express a significant truth.

Naturally I came straight to this wiki article for confirmation, and lo and behold, Ash is right: the quote is here, but it is unsourced. Can those of you who are working on this article please sort this out for us, one way or the other? --Doric Loon 10:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I note that it is now removed. Even if it is possibly apocryphal, it is so famous that I believe it should be mentioned here as possibly apocryphal. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Professor Immanuel Wallerstein cited it in his Jan 2008 commentary #224: "The only answer is in the apocryphal story about the answer that Zhou En-lai is supposed to have given to the question: 'What do you think of the French Revolution?' Answer: 'It is too early to tell.'" 129.105.140.135 (talk) 21:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I can reveal that there is a source for this rather wonderful quote. BBC News to the rescue... The Quote --J.StuartClarke (talk) 04:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Missing Dimension

Little discussion in the historiography of Zhou Enlai has covered his career in the CCP before the escape from Shanghai in 1931. Frederic Wakeman's book 'Policing Shanghai' contains an account of the betrayal of Gu Shunzhang who had been the CCP's Intelligence Chief. Gu betrayed the party when captured on April 26, 1931, however the motivation for his treachery is hotly debated in the literature. Documents found within British and American Archives, show that Comintern and Chinese Communist opinion was that Gu had planned to go over to the Nationalists prior to his arrest, without the opening of Chinese archives, however, it will be impossible to prove this conclusively. The interesting aspect of the Gu incident is the role of Zhou Enlai in the retribution that was carried out on Gu's family. Zhou is believed to have ordered, if not participated in the brutal assassination of Gu's family and his brother in law's family. The victims were first strangled and then decapitated and were then buried until concrete in plots around the Shanghai International Settlement and French Concession. The public outcry, following the discovery of the bodies, is one of the incidents which Wakeman sees as leading to greater cooperation between the various police forces within the city (British/'international, French and Chinese). Zhou's role in the brutal murder of Gu's family is in stark contrast to the normal view of the man as an urbane scholar-statesman. It is a perspective notably lacking in most of the biographies of Zhou, and a missing dimension which needs to be included in any future analysis of Zhou that claims to be comprehensive. Asmillar 20:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I would be inclined to think that all prominent politicians would have blood on their hands. That would be enhanced by books written in part to discredit communism and China. It is all too easy to link brutal murders to the most well respected stateman in China.

This is not an issue of discrediting communism or China. In fact your line of argument is precisely at the heart of the 'rose-tinted' analysis of Zhou which is predominant in the literature. The point that I was attempting to make was that the portrayal of Zhou as an urbane scholar/diplomat needs to be tempered. And were it so easy, as you state, "to link brutal murders to the most well respected statesman in China" why has it not been done previously? Moreover, you are missing a further point which I was trying to emphasise - namely the role played by Comintern in the Chinese Communist Party's rise to power. Or would such an analysis also discredit communism and China?!

the OP is right, something fishy is going on. i read a book about zhou that had someone commenting on him as the dragon of revolution or something, not some kinda chinese gandhi.

I also agree with the OP. For Zhou to survive the ruthless Shanhai political scene of the 1920s and 30s, he must have been equally ruthless. Not a saint. He was also a general (I think?) in the CCP army. Therefore he must have , like all generals, sent men to their deaths, as well as ordered people killed. To be NPOV the article should reflect this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.202.202.80 (talk) 02:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Use of hyphen in Chinese names

Refer to article "Chinese name" subsection "Romanization of Chinese names" where it states "Two character given names or surnames (much less common) are written as one word, a hyphen or space is not used." Xtrump 16:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

See here: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Names. Names using the Wade-Giles romanization use the hyphen. _dk 23:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Did I say I was using Wade Giles? We should be consistant within the same article at least. Xtrump 13:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Chiang Kai-shek and Sun Yat-sen are better known in Wade-Giles. The standard is to go by the names they are best known in. (In pinyin, they would be "Jiang Jieshi" and "Sun Zhongshan" or "Sun Yixian"...which is not what you wrote.) _dk 23:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality needed?

I know nothing about this guy, but the current treatment is very rosy, especially in the "Assessment" section, so I'm tagging it POV for the moment. The facts are great, but statements like "infinite patience," for example, are hard to take seriously. Andersem 17:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] background knowledge, not "neutrality" needed?

That's noble of you to start by admiting "I know nothing about this guy...". In that case, maybe you're in a poor position to judge whether the "Assessment" 's claims arevery rosy or not. "Infinite patience" is of course always an exaggeration since no one literally has infinite patience, but it's said none less of people to indicate thatthey have extraordinary patience---would that satisfy you? Maybe you should read some history and biography elsewhere about Zhou and then consider whether the Assessment is very rosy or not.

>>>> The tone of the article is reminiscent of English translations of Communist-bloc propaganda. I have heard good things about Zhou from knowledgeable people who generally have nothing good to say about members of the CCP; however, that doesn't change the fact that the article is poorly written and will raise skepticism in many readers. Furthermore, let's not put the word neutrality into quotes. It is a virtue worthy of cultivation. 124.8.105.132 (talk) 12:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC) ryan

[edit] Usage

Why is Zhou Enlai referred to throughout this article as "Enlai?"

Isn't the proper usage to refer to him by his surname, "Zhou?"

[edit] Delete one sentence

I delete the following sentence. I'm pretty sure that the one caught by Chiang was Chen Geng, not Zhou Enlai.

It has been said that he had been captured and released on the orders of Chiang Kai-Shek, to repay a debt from an occasion when Zhou had saved Chiang from violent leftists in Guangzhou.

Sinolonghai 23:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mao denies Zhou cancer treatment

I've added the sentence about that because I think it's very important and interesting. It follows the idea of the sentence about Mao ordering fireworks after Zhou's death. I referenced it. If anybody takes issue with it feel free to mention it to me. --The Fwanksta May 19, 2007, 22:03.

I don't think I agree with this. First, "Mao: the Unknown Story", while an interesting read, is not the most objective biography on Mao. The author has a strong POV and a lot of the facts in the book are disputed. Quoting such a contraversial and biased source may not represent Wikipedia's NPOV perspective. Second, I couldn't find any source besides Jung Chang that indicated in anyway Mao wanted Zhou to die. This lack of secondary support also question the validity of that statement. Third, both Mao and Zhou fell sick in 1972 and both of them died in 1976. While some sources do indicate Mao instructed the doctor to not inform Zhou of the cancer and avoid treatment, he did the same thing to himself when he was found to have cancer as well. There are many more articles indicating that Mao is afraid surgery would kill the patient, rather than cure them. While I agree they may not be 100% accurate, but again, both viewpoint should be represented rather than just one. Given both of them lived 4 years after they were first diagonsed cancer, it seems high unlikely that Mao denied treatment to kill Zhou. Fifth, during the Cultural Revolution, both Liu Shaoqi and Lin Biao is seen as more "important" within CCP as Zhou but both fell very quickly when Mao turned against them. If he truly wanted Zhou died (or expelled or anything else), he wouldn't resort to refusing treatment but still keep him as Premier for four years. Finally, Mao's fame isn't what they use to be anymore after the 80s but Zhou's fame is as high as ever. If Mao did purposely kill Zhou, then there should be at least some trace of this showing. However, while there are many well known stories of Mao denying treatments to people (Peng Dehuai, He Long, etc..), there are very little trace (if any) that indicated Mao does done that with Zhou. In 1979, when Deng first labelled the Cultural Revolution as Mao's big mistake, Zhou received high praises from saving many lives and acting against Mao's words. However, Zhou's wife Deng claimed that her husband never disagreed with the chairman and is the chairman is wrong, then Zhou is wrong as well. If Mao truly tried to kill Zhou (surely Deng woud be aware of this), when would she defend Mao and put Zhou with him? With that, I propose this sentence be removed from the article. I believe any highly biased sources should be avoided if possible unless it is in the section about legacy and/or criticism. I'm new to wiki so I won't edit the page and leave this for a third party opinion. 74.73.129.19 08:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's appropriate to condemn Mao: the Unknown Story so quickly. I'm not an expert in the area but the article on the book itself certainly doesn't say conclusively that the book is biased and inaccurate. While there is a lot of criticism, there is also a lot of praise, by noteworthy academics. Furthermore, while the book as a whole may have problems, there is not much of a reason to believe that this particular fact is erroneous, besides the objections you've voiced. However, I respond to those by saying that this book is very recent and could very easily have taken into account new information. Considering how recent Mao's reign was, coupled with the fact that China isn't exactly a full-disclosure democratic regime, it seems very plausible that new, enlightening information could have been available as recently as 2005, when the book was published. The other sources you looked at may not have had the info available. You raised a number of other questions, but I'm pretty sure the book accounts for them, for the most part (apologies, though: I can't remember for sure why Mao did it). However, I don't think those points on their own suffice to warrant removal of the statement. Also, I do not think the fact's addition to the text contravenes NPOV. It's inclusion simply gives another side of the debate a voice. My position is as follows: we put the statement in the passage with a link to the book as I had done previously. This way readers can easily access the controversy the book has surrounding it. In addition, I would be completely willing to allow a caveat such as "although there is controversy surrounding this book's reliability" or "other sources do not mention this" (and here you could list some of the ones you've found). Some third-party input here would be great. The Fwanksta (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Turns out someone else actually removed the sentence, but I re-added it with the caveat. Let me know what you think. -- The Fwanksta (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Geneva Handshake Incident

I came across the reliable summary of this incident and decided to add it even though there is a great deal of work to be done on this article, such as an account of Zhou's role in the Kissinger/Nixon talks etc of 1971-1972. ch (talk) 06:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

This is just general inquiry, but does anyone else think that the picture is a bit, unrepresentative, if you will, of Zhou Enlai's character?

[edit] GPCR

Coverage of the Cultural Revolution seems sparse, so I offer this for discussion and consideration:

As late as October 1966, Zhou argued that Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping ‘should be allowed to come back to work,’ but were opposed by Mao, Lin Biao, Kang Sheng and Chen Boda. Chen Boda even suggested that Zhou himself might be ‘considered counterrevolutionary,’ if he did not toe the Mao line. ^[1]

Zhou gave his backing to Red Guard radical Kuai Dafu’s ‘Third Headquarters’ in October 1966, joining Chen Boda and Jiang Qing against what were considered at the time ‘leftist’ and ‘rightist’ Red Guard factions. This opened the way for attacks on Liu Shaoqi, Deng Xiaoping and Tao Zhu in December 1966— January 1967. ^[2] By September 1968, Zhou was quite candid about his strategy for surviving: ‘one’s personal opinions should advance or beat a retreat’ according to the direction of the majority.’ ^[3] DOR (HK) (talk) 08:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

I've made some changes in the early years, with footnotes (two, where possible). DOR (HK) (talk) 08:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

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