Template talk:Zh-p
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[edit] Why add Hanyu
Pinyin is only capitalized as a specific pinyin, Hanyu Pinyin, Postal System Pinyin, Standard Cantonese Pinyin or Tongyong Pinyin. "Pinyin" is just a general term for romanization that is often but not exclusively used to refer to Hanyu. We need to be precise and accurate for a template applied to many articles.--Jiang 06:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- I find it quite unnecessary and pedantic to add "Hanyu" in all of these templates. The system used is commonly called just "Pinyin" in English. Nobody is going to be confused if you call it that. Calling it "hanyu" makes people wonder what special kind wikipedia might be using. −Woodstone 08:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Then instead of talking about it, why not change it? --LakeHMM 08:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
One comment went missing here.
- The "other" pinyins are hardly ever used anymore outside of very limited circles. In an English context, if the word pinyin is used, it is automatically assumed to be Hanyu Pinyin even if the great majority of people never even heard of Hanyu Pinyin. To my opinion adding Hanyu creates unnecessary doubts for the readers, making them wonder if the mentioned "Hanyu Pinyin" is the same pinyin they know about. −Woodstone 09:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
This would not work in the context of other romanization systems. For example, at Republic of China, "Pinyin" would be followed by "Tongyong Pinyin" and at Chongqing, "Pinyin" would be followed by "Postal System Pinyin".
The great majority of people haven't heard about pinyin, period. It is only those who make the effort to learn, or learn about, the Chinese language who will find the characters and romanizations provided in parenthesis useful at all. "Pinyin", while appropriately used colloquially in English to refer to Hanyu Pinyin, is ambiguous in the context of other romanization systems and will lead readers to question the apparent redundancy. --Jiang 10:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- Changes by User:Eiorgiomugini were reverted without comment here. Just to get some impression about familiarity of these terms I did some Google counts:
- pinyin: 7 000 000
- hanyu pinyin: 208 000
- postal system pinyin: 28 000
- tongyong pinyin: 52 000
- Therefore we can assume that the normal term is pinyin, which can be assumed to stand for Hanyu Pinyin. When any of the other types is meant, that can be made explicit. I will adapt the template accordingly. −Woodstone 21:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
It is fine to use pinyin as a stand alone term, but not comparatively. It makes no sense to say "The street signs in Taipei City use pinyin while the street signs in Taipei county use Tongyong Pinyin." Here, "pinyin" is in a long line of romanization systems and should be spelled out full. The google test doesn't work: just becuase "United" gets more hits than "United States" does not mean we should change all mentions of "United States" to "United". --Jiang 21:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- So let's use just pinyin when that is the only transcription and Hanyu Pinyin if it is combined with one of the others. The mixed templates can be adapted accordingly. Going that way in the vast majority of cases the reader is not bothered by the additon of "hanyu" and specialist artcoiles are still explicitly informative. It might be good, next to the existing Zh-p (pinyin), to create an addditonal simple template "Zh-hp" (Hanyu Pinyin) to be called from the mixed ones.−Woodstone 18:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Capitalisation
I've just recapitalised Pinyin, simply because it looks visually odd seeing it all lowercase in the mixed templates (eg Template:zh-cpw); for consistency, it makes more sense (in my opinion) to use the initial capital here. —OwenBlacker 16:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- see discussion above. for "pinyin" to be capitalized, it must be a proper name, which it is not. Rather than just meaning "romanization", we have to specify the romanization for it to be capitalized: Hanyu Pinyin. Either it is capitalized as Hanyu Pinyin, or left lowercase on its own. If it looks odd, I don't object to the alternative...or as Woodstone suggests, use a seperate template.--Jiang 17:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
No, I've read the discussion above and disagree. In a sentence, I think you're right, it should be lowercase; in the context of this template, where it's not a full sentence, I think it should be an initial capital, otherwise it looks really odd. — OwenBlacker 17:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think lowercase "looks" better, but looks is not the main deciding factor here. I prefer "Hanyu Pinyin" over "pinyin", but I don't think "Pinyin" makes much sense.--Jiang 01:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
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- "Hanyu Pinyin" is definitely redundant; pinyin, when used in English by itself, refers to Hanyu Pinyin. I would support the change on all templates to "pinyin", though, as I don't see the need to capitalize the first letter. To me it looks odd as "Pinyin" precisely because it does not begin a sentence. It is not a proper noun and I don't think its use here in a template calls for capitalization. shoeofdeath 22:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
In certain articles, this will be listed along with Tongyong Pinyin. When talking about both, the full name is spelled out for each, so it is necessary to spell it out unless we create a separate template (too complicated) for listing alongside with Tongyong Pinyin. And "pinyin" on its own should not be capitalized, as stated above.--Jiang 01:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- The instances where Tongyong is mentioned are relatively rare (this template is linked on thousands of pages). Even on the Tongyong Pinyin page Hanyu Pinyin is referred just by "pinyin" without the "Hanyu" classifier. I believe this is because the word "pinyin" by itself is widely understood to mean Hanyu Pinyin, making the addition of "Hanyu" to the template unnecessary, right? Since we at least agree it should be "pinyin" instead of "Pinyin" I will make that change now. shoeofdeath 02:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
The table in the TY page should not be listing Hanyu Pinyin as merely "Pinyin" since the full name is used whenever the two are being compared (perhaps laziness on the part of the editor to avoid pipe-linking?).
I don't see the damage done by spelling out the full and proper name, even if pinyin is commonly understood to refer to Hanyu Pinyin.--Jiang 04:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- Like User:Woodstone above, I think adding "Hanyu" is a bit pedantic, since "pinyin" is used far more than "Hanyu Pinyin", even though that is the full name. Furthermore, the title of the actual article we are linking to also lacks the "Hanyu".
- Do you think the Pinyin article should be moved to Hanyu Pinyin? If this move were to take place I would say the template should probably also be changed. Also remember there are templates like this one that can be used when more than one pinyin system is needed. shoeofdeath 23:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Basic Rules of Hanyu Pinyin Orthography
All pinyin gloss should follow the Basic Rules of Hanyu Pinyin Orthography. – Kaihsu 15:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Incorrect ISO 639 code - pny
This is information from the corresponding Japanese template for Pinyin.
The current 2007-11-28T14:59:56 version specifies pny as ISO 639-3 code, as listed on Documentation for ISO 639 identifier: pny. Just click the See corresponding entry in Ethnologue link on the page, and you'll find Pinyin is the name of a language spoken in Cameroon. The correct code for Chinese Pinyin is zh-Latn, or, from what I have googled, zh-Latn-x-pinyin. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 14:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- My edit was reverted by Badagnani as he reported it didn't work well. The Japanese version uses zh-Latn, and I don't know why it doesn't work on the English Wikipedia. Please someone correct it. The code pny is not for Chinese pinyin. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Incorrect ISO 639 code - pny (edit request)
{{editprotected}} (see above section for reasoning – the code should either be zh-Latn, or absent; not pny) -BRPXQZME (talk) 01:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
