Talk:Zero tolerance

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In Canada, an 8 yr. old boy named Billy Barnes was suspended from his Elementary School for pointing a breaded chicken finger at a classmate and shouting "Bang!". Possibly. But this is a contribution from User:Auric the Rad. Wetman 17:20, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I changed the article to add a source reference. --Yamla 18:15, 2004 Dec 30 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Disambiguation

This article needs a disambiguation for Zero Tolerance (game), and IMDB [1] lists four movies with the same title.

[edit] Criticism or Information?

I think this Article just states the downside of this ideology. It is proven that this ideology has success fighting "urban decay". This article reminds me more of an anti-campaign to zero tolerance.

I look forward to your edits balancing out this article. You may have a hard time finding actual proof rather than just correlation about zero tolerance, but I wish you luck. --Yamla 13:28, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
I agree. The article is quite blatantly one-sided. It needs to be rewriten to be unbiased. I've added the NPOV tag untul then. - DNewhall
Thanks. --Yamla 19:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Yamla, do you have sources for the examples you added? If so, please include them. Any example that is not sourced should be removed.--TheJeffMiller 03:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm not the original source of these. I only put them back in, I didn't add them originally. Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment that they should be sourced or removed. I believe there is already sufficient sourcing for the Canadian incident with the chicken finger (see earlier discussion), though perhaps not on the article page itself. I'll see what I can find about the other instances. --Yamla 13:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
At the risk of seeming snarky, if you think they "should be sourced or removed", why did you restore them?--TheJeffMiller 12:26, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral as nitric acid

The lack of citation, the inlining of opinion quotes, the general lack of substance; that the audience might be generally sympathetic to the point of view would appear to be the only reason this article didn't already have a neutrality tag. If clear sources can't be given then large parts of this should be excised.

Further, two hundred examples of wrongdoing don't add any more than the current twenty of so. ZT is more than just "some idiot overreacted to something". Air your grievances on you livejournals, childs. Thumper 00:46, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged bias

Thumper, if you think this article is biased, then provide evidence supporting the effectiveness of zero tolerance. If the article is biased, such evidence should be very easy to produce. Otherwise, the article isn't biased and the tag will have to be removed. Will three days be enough time for you to produce the evidence?

The utilitarian policy assumption is that inflexibility is a deterrent because, no matter how or why the rule was broken, the fact that the rule was broken is the basis for the imposition of the penalty. This is intended as a behaviour modification strategy, i.e. because those at risk know that it may operate unfairly, they may be induced to take even unreasonable steps to avoid breaking the rule. This is a standard policy in rule- and law-based systems around the world on "offences" as minor as traffic violations to major health and safety legislation for the protection of employees, those living nearby and the environment. So merely listing particular examples alleged to be unfair in the school system is unhelpful. As in all other systems, the school system is predicated on the exploitation of its inherent unfairness. So why is there no "balancing" list of those people who resisted breaking the rules because of the threat of the known unfairness? Alternatively, why is Wiki acting as the advocate of zero tolerance by highlighting these examples of unfairness? Surely, the mass publicising of these examples of unfairness serves the schools' purpose by frightening students into conformity. An objective and NPOV assessment might be considered a reassurance to students that, out of the millions of student acts and omissions each and every school day, only an infinitesimal percentage prove to be unfairly penalised. David91 04:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
You've made a good start. However, we still need someone to provide research evidence that supports zero tolerance. There is empirical research evidence that it's ineffective.
The issue isn't really whether ZT is effective. The issue is that the article is written not from a perspective of explaining what ZT is, but rather one of ensuring that the reader comes away disproving of it by making the article little more than a list of controversial punishments. Chris Cunningham 19:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
You misunderstand my intention. I am not going to write anything on the North American school system because I know nothing about it. I simply pointed out that a mere list of examples without a proper context is POV. Since you may have greater expertise on the subject than I, you should consider whether there is any empirical evidence at all, whichever POV you espouse. If there is nothing more an anecdotal evidence on either side, you should very clearly state that fact and consider eliminating all opinion statements. As it is, all you have are self-serving examples. Simply transplanting a point from the talk page to the article is not going to save this page on the school issue. You should first address the nature of the school discipline system in North America (since all your examples currently come from that part of the world). Who drafts these rules? What policies do they seek to enforce? Who reviews them before implementation? Who administers the rules once in force? What safeguards by way of an appeal, if any, are put in place? etc. etc. etc. Then you should consider how many times students are penalised under these rule systems and identify what proportion of those so penalised may be considered more than unfairly treated. Then you should consider whether the example made of those particular students had any undue effect on the overall discipline system in the given school or school district. Did the student body rise up in revolt like the French students currently attacking government policy on employment, and threaten to burn the school down unless the student's penalty was remitted? Or did everyone put their heads down and take extra care not to break the same rule? If so, was that a bad thing? It is not for an anonymous user to challenge Thumper or anyone else to produce evidence. If you want to defend this page, you should produce evidence and completely restructure the piece on schools to avoid it from being considered POV. To compare systems, you might wish to consider this month's House of Lords ruling on an English school's refusal to allow a female student to wear a jilbab as an expression of her religious beliefs. Every country has laws about rules and they way they work. If they work unfairly, these rules can be challenged in court. A balanced article would consider what remedies are available in North America and the extent to which the students actually penalised have exercised their right to a judicial review of their penalties. If there are no such cases, an inference might be that no North American court would hold the rules or the penalties imposed unfair. David91 17:46, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Please do not remove the {unreferenced} template or the [fact] requests until you have complied with Wikipedia:Cite sources. Every assertion currently unreferenced should either be verified by a "proper" citation or deleted. David91 19:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Dear David- I have checked the wikipedia reference guidance information and can't figure out in what way my references are not proper. If you will please please be so kind as provide me that information it would be most helpful. Many thanks.David Justin 19:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I am pleased and relieved that you are interested in learning how to write a balanced encyclopedia entry. In the entry above, I did take the trouble to set out the issues you would need to address to make the piece more objective. At present, you are doing no more than reporting news which is biased and not encyclopedic. It is biased in the sense that it wishes to frame the reader's reaction as "Wow! That is unfair!" Instead of reporting a factual context, e.g. that the student had been a disciplinary problem for years, the episode is made to appear notable by deliberately suppressing all information that might enable the reader to reach a contrary opinion. I agree that some references have now appeared. Unfortunately, they are not obviously acceptable. For example, "Scaringi, D. "Zero Tolerance Needed for Safe Schools." St. Petersburg (FL) Times, June 24, 2001." seems to be a newspaper opinion piece. As such, it does not match the requirement for a verifiable source. To be a verifiable source, the publication you cite should be of a proper standard. All that you have done is to find a journalist who holds the same opinion that you do. I will leave you to remove the offending "sources". To be NPOV, you have to produce information on all sides of the debate, and you have to be able to cite verifiable authority. If you cannot cite verifiable authority, you are not supposed to put the information in. I was subjected to major criticism for simply entering content from memory. I ended up having to send for photocopies of journal articles to justify the entry. Pending that, my information did not go into the article space. It is a tough rule, but we are aiming to produce something of quality here. David91 02:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Content

Supporters of zero tolerance policies claim that such policies are required to create an appropriate environment (Scaringi, 2001; Noguera, 1995). They also point to examples of persons in authority providing lax discipline in the past, with a resulting breakdown in order (for example, in a school environment)(Scaringi, 2001). Some supporters also argue that the mass publicising of examples of unfairness serves the schools' purpose by frightening students into conformity. They point to the millions of student acts and omissions each and every school day, only an infinitesimal percentage of which prove to be unfairly penalised.(Noguera, 1995)

What do these assertions mean? These "policies are required to create an appropriate environment" Who requires them? Appropriate to whom and for what? Why do "these supporters" refer to past laxness when their concern is current indiscipline. Were the rules always in place and not enforced, or did "these supporters" rewrite the rules? Then you quote me but attribute the quote to Noguera in 1995. You should not invent citations. I could go on but I do not want to appear gratuitously unkind. In all seriousness, it would be better to throw all this content away and start again with a blank screen to build up a balanced and verifiable piece. David91 03:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't write this piece but tried to make it an acceptable article by deleting many of the examples of ZT abuse and by referencing content. It appears that a lot of people don't like the content but aren't willing to do any work to improve it; it's much easier to criticize than to create.David Justin 03:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
If I had the expertise, I would rewrite this element, but I know nothing about the North American education system. If it was about the European system, I would already have rewritten the element. It is not a case of either liking or disliking the content. NPOPV requires editors to present all relevant views fairly. The objection to the schools element is that, as currently configured, it is POV. Rather than simply deleting it, I will move the material to its own page, and leave you and any others who come along to deal with matters there. David91 04:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

David91- Thank you for implementing a creative solution to the zero tolerance page problem. You've made a significant contribution which I (and I'm sure others) greatly appreciate.David Justin 17:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freakonomics challenged

As I am the fan of Freakonomics, I am not happy to let you know that part mentioned described in "Is the zero tolerance policy efficient?" part was repeatedly challenged by other researchers. While it is interesting idea, for the sake of balance arguments of some challengers should be at least referenced, if this part doe not deserve to be removed (as it addresses only very partial case). Unfortunately I am now in internet cafe ... but somebody with access to academic literature might have a look into it, please. Ruziklan 20:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recently-added History section

User SummerWithMorons recently added a History section, copied below. I removed it, with edit summary "(remove history/paternity section - no such act as 'Safe and Clean Neighborhoods Act', section is POV or unclear)". SummerWithMorons undid my reversion, with edit summary "(Undid revision by CliffC the material is properly sourced. if you have problems with that, it's more useful to discuss it on talk)".

Here is the section, followed by my comments. Please consider removing this section permanently.

[edit] History

The paternity of zero telerance belongs to the program started with the approvation of the Safe and Clean Neighborhoods Act, in New Jersey in 1973.[1][2][3][4] This inspired Wilson and Kelling to wrote the famous article on the "broken window" (1982).[5] The programa had no significant effect on crime rates with continued to grow in the years of application. Instead, a crime rate drop happened 20 years later, in the mid 90, thanks to an economic improvement and to demographic reasons. But the program had a positive impact on the citizens, whcih had a ficticius impression of safety imporvement. The program has then described a public relation policy instead of a sefaty one.[1][2]

First, an apology, I was wrong when I said "no such act as 'Safe and Clean Neighborhoods Act'". I misremembered the title and when I Googled for what I remembered, I found 525 instances of "Safe and Clean Neighborhoods Program" and missed the four instances of "Safe and Clean Neighborhoods Act".

I think the second citation should be omitted because the articles it points to are in Italian and will not be accessible to most readers of the English wikipedia.

Describing the new section as "unclear" in my edit summary was a way of saying that the English and spelling weren't very good, no insult intended and your English is certainly better than my Italian. I did not try to improve the section because I don't agree with what I think you are saying.

The first two sentences seem to be saying that the Safe and Clean Neighborhoods Act brought about the Broken Windows article, which in turn brought about the policy of Zero Tolerance. I don't see either of these connections stated in the five citations given for these two sentences.

The last four sentences, starting with "The program had no significant effect..." would need to be prefaced with a phrase like "According to...", to make it clear that this is someone's opinion, not a statement of fact. Even with such a change, these four sentences don't fit this article, because they seem to be talking about the effects of either the Safe and Clean Neighborhoods Act, or the Broken Windows theory – not about the Zero Tolerance enforcement policy that is the subject of the article. If they are meant to question the Effectiveness of the zero tolerance policy, that is a subject already covered, in a section by that exact name, near the end of the article.

--CliffC 15:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The detailed current version has plenty of qualitative sources, I think they say it all.--SummerWithMorons (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Totally biased utter scrap!

This article, as of now is just pro-drugs junk. Rudy Guliani used "zero tolerance" in NY to make the city liveable. It worked, period. No proper mention of that. This article is a shame of Wikipedia, as it stands now. 82.131.210.162 (talk) 20:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have evidence for this claim, or is it just regurgitated media opinion? --Jaded-view (talk) 03:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Freakanomics Section

The argument of neutrality notwithstanding, this does not seem to be the proper article to discuss the impact of abortion on crime. This is supposed to be, as I read it, a viewpoint of the legal definition and ramification of a zero-tolerance policy. Bringing in errant material about abortion is little more than an inflammatory diatribe and doesn't add anything to the article. It would work in something about crime rates, or abortion as a supporting argument, but it doesn't work here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brinlong (talk • contribs) 15:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Paid references

Is it OK that some references are leading to payed sites? I thought that Wikipedia should be accessible to everyone, is it for links as well? 145.99.149.242 (talk) 15:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, No.--SummerWithMorons (talk) 19:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

Distinct but related to the problem of neutrality is the presence of weasel words such as "According to scholars." Such an introductory phrase adds nothing substantive to an assertion; it might even make readers feel as though they were being snowed. The article would be improved by their removal. BrianTung (talk) 21:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)