Talk:Zentatsu Richard Baker

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 Zentatsu Richard Baker was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: April 11, 2008
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
WikiProject Buddhism This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Buddhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with Buddhism. Please participate by editing the article Zentatsu Richard Baker, or visit the project page for more details on the projects.
Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.

Article Grading:
The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Zentatsu Richard Baker article.
Article policies

Hm... good information here, but smells like unremediated POV. Can someone who isfamiliar with the issues take a look and see if this can be cleaned up? If the information is accurate, there should be a more NPOV way to present it. --Raduga 16:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC) Raduga: Everything here is based on "Shoes Outside the Door," which is a nuetral enough portrayal. Personally, as an occassional student at Zen Center and Tassajara, I can say that most people involved now fault Baker-roshi and themselves in equal portions, or say that there is no way to really understand what happened because of how complex the situation was. But Wikipedia does not contain original research. If you can point out sentences that seem to blame Baker-roshi or Zen Center for anything, please point them out. But the facts are true, to wit:

  • His actions caused a controversy
  • His actions included sleeping with students, adultery, and buying expensive things
  • People resented these actions because they were working for free, directly or indirectly in his service, and living in poverty in honor of the asceticism that Baker taught
  • Baker has never apologised, and once sued for control. He believes he was wronged
  • Zen center tossed Baker out, despite his argument that he was the only legitimate dharma heir of Sunryu Suzuki and the rightful abbot of the temple.
  • Baker points out that Japanese Zen temples are not democracies
  • Efforts at full rapprochment have not been entirely successful. Zen center invites Baker to lead sesshins, but Baker-roshi won't come back unless he's fully in charge

The notability of the controversy is that it showed how Americans adapt Asian religion dharmato our own circumstances. Baker is notable because he is the dharma heir of Suzuki, and because he precipitated a controversy. Please rewrite as best as you can. --Defenestrate18:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC) I've tried to give this a more NPOV, and I've included some additional relevant information. --DeCamp 21:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Please reinsert information about Baker's Scandal. Narcissus 06:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Really, though. DeCamp's soi dissant NPOV edit consisted of chopping a lot of text out of the article. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 03:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

--- I'm concerned about the discussion at the end about Dharma transmission to Reb Anderson. This transmission happened the same year that Richard Baker was forced to resign, so it sounds like Baker chose his successor under pressure as well! The conflict about Katagiri thus seems like a personal spat arising out of socially and politically difficult circumstances. I would like to delete it because it seems like a personal issue missing the context it needs to be understood. Also it is very inelegantly explained right now. If there is no comment in a week or two, I'm going to delete the passage. -npatchett

No one objected so I fixed up the page. I think it is much more unbiassed, professional and well organized now. I removed the details about Reb Anderson that lacked context and deleted many judgmental phrases from the discussion of Baker's downfall at SFZC, preferring to let readers decide for themselves. -npatchett

At the end of the article it is said that "Since his departure from San Francisco Zen Center [abbr. SFZC], Richard Baker has again become one of the most influential figures in Western Zen ...".

I have been involved in what one might or might not call "Western Zen" for over ten years now. Baker is mainly famous for his infamous involvement in the SFZC scandal, but where is the evidence for him being influential at such a level nowadays?

Obviously his attainment of insight and compassion was deeply flawed at least until his discharge from SFZC, and his insistence on returning there only under the condition of reinstatement is a pointer that he is still clinging to or even is defensive of his old views - no "old dog" here (a zen metaphor of indiscriminate acceptance of what comes across one's path). The whole affair left him with a deeply damaged public image. So here is my question again: where is the evidence for the abovementioned assertion? -me/myself/and/i —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.202.38 (talk • contribs) 18:35, Jan 31, 2008

I'd definitely agree that Baker's legacy is one concerned with his liaisons with students and the wife of a close friend, not necessarily his status as a roshi. Baker is not one of the "most influential figures in Western Zen." If it is unreferenced, lets remove it. If it is referenced, lets say who believes that. (Mind meal (talk) 20:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC))

Contents

[edit] GA Review

OK, lots of things to improve:

  • In the lead is it relevant that he established four stores with the Center?
  • Try breaking the Biography section into smaller parts, as it's a lot longer than the other two.
  • "From 1968 to 1971 he studied Soto Zen in Japan at well-known monasteries, including Antaiji, Eiheiji, and Daitokuji." Convert the external link into a reference.
  • "It should be noted that shortly before his death, Suzuki was in the midst of making preparations to also give Dharma transmission to Bill Kwong (now Jakusho Kwong)." What relevance does this have?
  • The whole second, third, and fourth paragraphs in the Biography section need extensive referencing.
  • "Baker also gives seminars at Boulder Zen Center in Boulder, Colorado twice each year, typically on the last weekends of January and April." Convert the external reference to a link.
  • You should add more information in your references, making the reference to read something like, "Author, Book Title, Page Number(s)".
  • You should probably combine "References" and "Further reading" and/or pare down the list of books. It's a long list.

Noble Story (talk) 11:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Addressed the following so far:

  • In the lead is it relevant that he established four stores with the Center? Removed
  • Try breaking the Biography section into smaller parts, as it's a lot longer than the other two. Done
  • "From 1968 to 1971 he studied Soto Zen in Japan at well-known monasteries, including Antaiji, Eiheiji, and Daitokuji." Convert the external link into a reference. Done
  • "It should be noted that shortly before his death, Suzuki was in the midst of making preparations to also give Dharma transmission to Bill Kwong (now Jakusho Kwong)." What relevance does this have? Removed
  • The whole second, third, and fourth paragraphs in the Biography section need extensive referencing. Unsure how to proceed, as they are referenced.
  • "Baker also gives seminars at Boulder Zen Center in Boulder, Colorado twice each year, typically on the last weekends of January and April." Convert the external reference to a link. Done
  • You should add more information in your references, making the reference to read something like, "Author, Book Title, Page Number(s)". Done
  • You should probably combine "References" and "Further reading" and/or pare down the list of books. It's a long list. Done

(Mind meal (talk) 18:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC))

[edit] General

Rename the sections, in particular Biography and SFZC.

[edit] Biography

Is it really relevant to know that SFZC acqured, "Green Gulch Farm in 1972—followed by the openings of Greens Restaurant, Green Gulch Grocery, Tassajara Bakery, and Alaya Stitchery"?

[edit] SFZC

"According to author James William Coleman in his book "The New Buddhism: The Western Transformation of an Ancient Tradition" (page 167)"

Put this into a citation.

The quote following from the book is much, much too long. Remove the quote and paraphrase and summarize the information.

[edit] Resignation

"According to Frederick C. Crew..."

Again, the following quote is too long. Paraphrase and summarize.

There are more things that can be changed, but these need to be worked on first.

Noble Story (talk) 05:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

No need, this is all a bit arbitrary. I don't think you are going to be pleased with much that I do, so don't worry about it. rename this, rename that. I only added the sections per your suggestion, otherwise they make no sense in the grand scheme of things. It all comes down to subjectivity. This article is very well referenced, and there is nothing anywhere that states that quotes must be a certain length. Those quotes are about half of a paragraph in the books they are taken from. If I had another reviewer, it would be some other thing. Factually, there is nothing wrong with this article. You ask is the inclusion of his opening businesses through Zen Center important? Of course it is, as it was something he undertook as leader of the SFZC. It is mentioned in several of his biographies, and is central to the controversies that arose around him leading to his resignation. Is there somewhere you could show me where it says quotes must be "x amount of letters"? I would appreciate that a lot. If there are other things that "can be changed," I'm not sure this is worth the time. As it stands the article does the trick and is good in my book. Factually correct, well written, solid sourcing, free images. Not sure what else you'd like, as those things do not need to be changed to be a good article. (Mind meal (talk) 07:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC))
Take a look here. "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea...Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited. No, it doesn't say "more than x amount of letters isn't allowed, but I would say that quotes of 13 and 8 lines would be rather long, don't you?
And I'll tell you why you need to rename the top two section. Biography means the whole of a person's life, and that first section obviously doesn't cover it all. For the second section, SFZC means nothing to someone reading the article, and could refer to anything. So, name it whatever you want, but not that.
Incidentally, if you're not satisfied with my reviewing, I'll be happy to withdraw my review and let someone else take over. Noble Story (talk) 07:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, 7 days after I posted the above suggestions, nothing has happened. Therefore, I fail the article for not complying with WP:LAYOUT and the copyright policy. If you have a problem with my assessment, take it to WP:GAR. Noble Story (talk) 00:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)