Talk:Ze'ev Jabotinsky

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Yours truly, --Ludvikus 05:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Edit request

Could the section about the unit that he started be changed from saying several hundred Jews to several hundred Jewish men? It's more accurate and less sexist.


[edit] Pro-Israel Bias?

Im changing the wordings of "Palestine Mandate" and "Land of Israel" to just "Palestine". It seems more appropiate, and fair and balanced. The other two wordings have a pro-Israel slant.

I have no problem with using "Palestine" when referring to the period the land was under British mandate. However, I object to calling it "Palestine" while it was under Turkish rule. While the name "Palestine" survived in the West, neither Turks nor Arabs called the land by that name at that time. Besides, calling it "Palestine" post-marks history with the stamp of current politics, delegitimizing Jewish origins and hopes.
For all these reasons, I am changing "Palestine" back to "Land of Israel" when referring to the time of Turkish rule. 75.84.97.215 09:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The territory was historically referred to as "Palestine", even before British rule. Even Zionists sometimes used this word ("בנק אנגלו-פלשתינה" -- bank anglo-palestina, which later became Bank Leumi).--Doron 19:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The reason why it is important to use "Land of Israel" and not "Palestine" in this particular instance is that the first term acknowledges millennia of Jewish longing for the ancestral land and thus provides foundation for Zionism as a normal self-determination movement: people fighting for their right to live freely in land, just like most Europeans had done in the 19th and 20th centuries. Jabotinsky in particular was a follower of Italian Risorgimento, not the Nazi caricature his enemies have been trying to make of him.
However, using "Palestine" provides a false impression of deliberate occupation of someone else's land to which Jews have no legitimacy whatsoever. Whether this is the impression you'd like to create or not, it is a false one. Jewish longing for this land and for the end of the exile is millennia old, and pretending otherwise distorts the picture.
The land was first known as Canaan. Its western part was inhabited by people known in Hebrew as Plishtim, from which words "Palestinian" and "Palestine" originate. Its eastern part was known as Land of Israel (ארץ ישראל). Only after the destruction of the Second Temple in 79 AD was the name "Palestine" spread to the entire land by Romans. The name was remembered in the West, but largely forgotten in the Middle East, at any rate by the time of the Turkish rule.
It is true that Zionists often called the land "Palestine." Not only Bank Anglo-Palestina, but also Palestine Symphony Orchestra and Palestine Gazette were Jewish, and Jews in the land were routinely called Palestinians. And local Arabs were simply called Arabs. With no objections from Arabs themselves. It was only after establishment of Israel in 1948, when the word "Israeli" has reappeared, that the local (and often non-local) Arabs started referring to themselves as "Palestinians." This was and remains nothing more than part of a plot to de-legitimize all Jewish aspirations, destroy Israel and exterminate all Israeli Jews.

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity in contrast to Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity is there only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity."
- Zuheir Mohsein, Member of the Supreme Council of the PLO. From Trouw (Dutch newspaper) March 31, 1977

"There is no such country as 'Palestine'; 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented!"
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi to the Pell Commission in 1937

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."
- Ahmed Shuqeiri, in a statement to the UN Security Council in 1949

It is not up to me to tell whether in some colloquial language the word "Falastin" survived before it was re-established by Jews coming to the land in late 19th century. Colloquial uses aside, the land Jabotinsky dedicated his life to restoring is the ancestral Jewish land, and therefore the term "Land of Israel" is most appropriate here.
I will wait for several days for your reply. If none comes, I will restore "Land of Israel" in the two places it refers to the land under Turkish control. 75.84.97.215 08:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

First, thank you for discussing this on the talk page, the constant edit-warring that goes on in Middle East articles has become very frustrating. Now, it is not true that the name "Palestine" only refers to the period of British rule, it is the most commonly used term in the literature for several centuries back. The name Land of Israel refers in the literature most commonly to ancient times (except for Zionist literature, which Wikipedia is not). If you are quoting the words of Jabotinsky as he refers to the country as the Land of Israel, then that is acceptable of course, but otherwise the phrasing of the article should reflect common usage.--Doron 23:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome. But this is the whole issue: which literature? Western literature did refer to it as Palestine. However, I am not aware of any Arabic or Turkish literature using that term. Jewish literature (Yiddish as well as Hebrew, non-Zionist as well as Zionist) refered to it as "the Land of Israel," "Palestine" and "the Holy Land." (For example, Sholom Aleichem in "Tevye the Dairyman" has a chapter "Tevye leaves for the Land of Israel, but within the chapter uses all three terms.)
Perhaps the last term, which was used by nearly everyone, is the best. It sounds neutral and nonprejudicial. After all, the land is holy to all 3 religions. 75.84.97.215 09:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that using the same word consistently will be easier for readers to understand. It isn't really relevant but in Mandel, "Zionism and the Arabs", he notes that Arabs used "Filastin" in the late 19th century. More importantly, the European Zionists also called it Palestine and called themselves "Palestinians". One of the quotations the Oxford English Dictionary gives to illustrate the history of the word "Palestinian" is a 1906 newspaper article: "Territorialists..flooded the hall with leaflets declaring that 200 Russian Palestinians were illegally present.". Another example is Bulletin de l`Alliance Israélite Universelle which uses "Palestine" frequently starting in 1863. It would be interesting to look at Jabotinsky's own writings ca. WWI to see what he called the place. It would be necessary to look at the original language as translators often translate Eretz Yisrael into Palestine. --Zerotalk 10:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I just found out that Jabotinsky used the word "Palestine." In article "Four Sons" written in 1911, he writes, "And tell him further how gaily the colonist's children are chattering in this language in Palestine." I took this quote from http://www.jabotinsky.org/jaboworld.html, but verified it with the original Russian text I have (V. Jabotinsky. Articles. St-Petersburg, 1913 / Вл. Жаботинский. Фельетоны. С-Перетбург, 1913), and it does say, "И еще расскажите ему, как бойко и весело щебечут на этом языке дети палестинского колониста..." (original for the translation above).75.84.97.215 04:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

As elsewhere on Wikipedia, I think the only relevant question is what is the common English term, since this is the English Wikipedia, regardless of what it is called in Hebrew, Arabic or Turkish. Naturally, it is called ארץ ישראל in the Hebrew Wikipedia, regardless of how it is called in other languages, and I would imagine the Arabic and Turkish Wikipedia don't give any weight to how the country is called in Hebrew. I agree with Zero that only one term should be used to avoid confusion, which is just as well, because the term "Palestine" was in common usage in the English literature throughout Jabotinsky's lifetime, including the Ottoman period.--Doron 16:48, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Torah Umadda

"He is also seen within the Modern Orthodox world as a symbol of Torah Umadda" - a source is needed for this, since Jabotinsky was a "thoroughly secular atheist" ([1] and plenty of other sources). --Zero 14:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Jabotinsky believed in G-D. He states this in the Iron Wall, he was secular-orientated, yet not athestic at all. Thus, his teachings are promoted in many Yeshivot around Israel & Diaspora

Regarding Jabotinsky's alleged atheism, his article "Four Sons" speaks of his profound understanding of the "Four Sons" story traditionally read on Pesach (Passover). I have see no evidence of atheism in any of his writings, and someone merely calling him "atheist" proves nothing. Clearly he was not a religious fanatic, but that does not mean he was atheist.

[edit] Mussolini and Jabotinsky?

According to the edition made in Polish Wikipedia, in 1934 Jabotinsky obtain help from fascist regime in Italia. Fascist militia was conducting military training of young Zionists from his organization. Can any one confirm this information? Superborsuk 22:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't confirm it definitively, but it would fit. Keep in mind that, entirely unlike Hitler, Mussolini was not an anti-Semite. I've seen some sort of liaison with Fascist Italy alluded to in what I would consider reliable sources (including the essay I mention in the next section), but I've never seen anything that had that as its focus. - Jmabel | Talk 15:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Sources for this include Shavit's book on the Revisionist movement. There's also an article on the topic that I didn't read yet: Vincenzo Pinto, Between imago and res: The Revisionist–Zionist Movement's Relationship with Fascist Italy, 1922–1938, Israel Affairs, Volume 10, Number 3 / Spring 2004, 91-109. --Zerotalk 08:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I've read that Betar maintained a training ship in Italy, but I can't remember the source at the moment! --Ian Pitchford 14:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Excellent essay on Jabotinsky

I just read what struck me as an excellent essay on Jabotinsky:

  • Jacqueline Rose, "The Zionist Imagination", The Nation, June 26, 2006, p. 27-34.

Nominally, it is a book review of a translation of Jabotinsky's novel The Five, and to some extent it is that, but that's more a point of departure than anything else. Despite The Nation's left-leaning politics, it is by no means a hostile essay.

For various reasons, I don't feel I'm a particularly good person to write this article, but I strongly urge whoever is working on it to read the piece; I suspect it is worth mining. - Jmabel | Talk 15:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


I disagree. The article is very well written and well researched. However, Jacqueline Rose brought with her a whole set of preconceived notions: that Zionism is a failure, that 'persecution' of 'Palestinians' is what really matters and persecution of Jews is not worthy of attention, that Jews are under obligation to choose victimhood and death rather than any sort of injustice towards anyone else.
Jacqueline Rose is a professor of English and Drama at Queen Mary, University of London. She is an author of "The Question of Zion" (2005), where she undertakes to save Judaism from Zionism and concludes that Israel is a betrayal of Jewish history and the Jewish heritage and adoption of all that is, historically and morally, un-Jewish. She spoke for the motion "Zionism today is the real enemy of the Jews" in a debate that took place on Jan. 25, 2005 (the eve of the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau) at the Royal Geographical Society in London, where she said: "How can the creation of a Jewish nation on the back of the suffering, the humiliation of another people, not be dangerous for the Jews?.. [Treatment of the Palestinian people in 1948] was ethnic cleansing... I urge you to support us; if you do, you will be sending a message to all around the world that the Jewish people did not survive attempted genocide to become the brutal oppressors of another people. Enough, no more, there is a better ethic, and there can be a better, safer, future for the Jews."
All this puts a major slant on everything in the article. It is a subtle essay, not a hate-filled rant, yet I think it is quite hostile and prejudiced.

[edit] Fascism

It documented that Jabotinsky was a fascist. There are claims that he twice tried to join the Nazi Party, but I have not confirmed this. He is, however, the inspiration for the Israeli Likud party. Were the nazi claim to be true, this would be very interesting. More research on this will follow. --Ibykus prometheus 22:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Never heard of him trying to join the Nazi party, and I seriously doubt it. If there is any truth at all to this, Lenny Brenner's book "The Iron Wall" should have it. I didn't look. --Zerotalk 08:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
On Jabotinsky being fascist. I do not know about the Mussolini connection, so there could be something with regard to support for early Italian fascism. Even this is implausible, since Jabotinsky was a great admirer of Italian Risorgimento, which is quite far from fascism. Beyond that, there is no doubt about Jabotinsky's hatred for Nazis, nazism and Hitler, as well as Mussolini after allignment with Hitler. It is true that David Ben Gurion used to refer to Jabotinsky as "Vladimir Hitler," but that speaks about Ben Gurion, not Jabotinsky. It is also true that many call Jabotinsky a "Nazi" simply because they hate him or the Jewish people in general, but in their lexicon it is just a swear word or a smearing tactic. If there were any real connection between Jabotinsky and fascism or nazism, they would have found it out long ago.
I have a reference here that shows that Jabotinsky was indeed at the very least sympathetic to Nazism. http://lw.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story640.html

The fact is that there was a rather significant collaboration between Zionists and the Nazis because both are racially oriented ideologies that favor the creation of an ethnically homogeneous state so it makes logical sense that they would form an alliance of convenience. There are other facts besides the documented evidence of Nazi-Zionist collaboration that show this. For instance, at the Nurenberg trials Streicher is on record saying that he felt Jews had to be taken as a model for other races with their refusal to mix.There are also records showing that the SS smuggled guns and provisions to the Haganah. Although most Jews probably dislike hearing this it does not mean the facts are not there--Spitzer19 (talk) 03:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually the "facts" are not there. The URL above pretends to show Jabotinsky in his "fascist uniform" which was actually his uniform for the Zion Mule Corps in World War I. Jabotinsky never met Mussolini and he insisted on a total boycott of Hitler's Germany. That's why he was so strongly against the Transfer Agreement. Hecht (talk) 07:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
True, Jabotinsky and Mussolini never met, although he was sent by the WZO to lobby Mussolini for support for the British mandate but the meeting never happened. Jabotinsky did write to Mussolini to attempt to move him away from Arab nationalists and to align with Zionism. All this is consistent with Revisionist policy, which is first a foremost a pure form of Zionism,. Alliances or attempts at alliances are always pragmatic in the cause of the Zionist project. The Revisionists played the Italian card at a time when it seemed Italy might eclipse the British. Jabotinsky did promise Mussolini that the Zionists would advance Italian interests in the Middle East. All the comparisons of the VJ and the Revisionists to fascists tend to leave out the realpolitik generally involved (including considerations of the fate of Italian Jews). The Revisionists were defimnitely a far-right wing of the WZO, whether they were fascists is a matter of opinion. Lenni Brenner documents aspects that he considers fascistic, such as Jabotinsky's proposals to ban strikes in a Jewish state. But this too needs to be seen in the light of his pure Zionism (he opposed any mixture with, eg, socialism/communism), in which there would be no need for divisions amongst Jews. To the extent that this mirrors fascist ideology, or Afrikaner nationalism, is a matter of open debate. Boodlesthecat Meow? 14:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
It isn't a matter of open debate. The basis of fascism is nationalist dictatorship. Show me where Jabotinsky called for a nationalist dictatorship. Hecht (talk) 17:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anglophile or Italophile

Jabotinsky was not so much an Anglophile as an Italophile. His youth was spent in Italy, he spoke Italian like a native and loved the country. He was in awe of Italian Risorgimento and often referred to Giuseppi Garibaldi with admiration. For example, in the article "Our Everyday Event" (Russian: Наше бытовое явление), he writes that in comparison with Jewish survival of two-thousand-year-old persecution, "even the resurrection of Italy look small." His article "Obscurantist" (Russian: Мракобес) is basically a non-stop praise of Garibaldi.

It is true that Jabotinsky for a while put his trust in England, especially after the signing of the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Yet he always maintained that small element of doubt that allowed him to remain in contact with reality. When he saw that England is turning its back on Jews, he turned his back on England. His main goal always was to establish a modern Jewish state, with or without the aid of the British Empire.

[edit] Jabotinsky Medal

I was very surprised that there was no WP article ON THE MEDAL CREATED IN HIS HONOR.

So I've started a STUB on it.
Can I get some help in expanding the article on the Jabotinsky Medal?
Yours truly, Ludvikus 16:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odd article

What an odd article! You don't really get any flavour of the guy. There's not even any mention of Petliura, which was a bit of a cause infame at the time. Given the importance of understanding revisionist Zionism in understanding the policies of Likud and similar nationalist groups, it's all a bit odd. Grace Note 04:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Member of the Order of the British Empire?

This article claims that Jabotinsky was awarded the MBE (see intro). Oddly, I couldn't find any other reference to this on the Internet (except, of course, on mirrors of this Wikipedia article). It may or may not be true, but it seems to be, in the current state of the article, an unsourced statement. Can anyone provide a reliable source (for or against the claim)? --- Hillel 15:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I should add that this MBE claim is most likely true, as multiple sources state that he was decorated for barvery by the british around 1918 ([2], [3]). --- Hillel 17:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
  • He is listed as decorated in the post World War I "British Jewry Book of Honour" .p.165 "Record of Honours".

It's true! It isn't usually an award for bravery, so more likely he got it for organizing the Jewish Legion. The proof can be seen here, if that humungous link works. If not, go here and search for "Jabotinsky" with "all" in both menus. In the London Gazette of 12 Dec 1919, in a section "To be members of the military division of the said Most Excellent Order" there is a listing "Jabotinsky, Hon. Lt. Vladimir, Spec. List.". --Zerotalk 13:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Camp Jabotinsky

"Today in Upstate New York the militant Jewish Defense Organization runs a training camp named after him called Camp Jabotinsky. There young Jews learn gun training, security and how to protect Jews from attack."

That second line is incredibly biased; there's a militant organization conducting training in upstate New York. Keep in mind that this would be called a madrassa or terrorist training camp if they were Muslim, and it's called "learning to protect" here...

agreed; one shudders to think what really goes on at "Camp Jabotinsky". feel free to do some research & provide a more "encyclopedic" description. Whiskey Pete 01:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

That is not true at all, you don't know what goes on in the camp, why would you think that they are learning in Camp Jabotinksy to do bad things. There is nothing wrong with learning how to protect themselves. It is the same in every military base, they must learn to protect themselves if there is a war.John26razor (talk) 20:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

May be better use this
Image:Zeev_Jabotinsky_uniform.jpg
photo? Sorry for my english :) --Ergil 06:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vladimir?

Hey. What's the story behind his name? Did he officially change to Zeev? If so, then why is his previous name written? Northern 11:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any inside knowledge about why his parents named him Ze'ev (which means "wolf" in Hebrew), but it is customary for Jews to give their children Hebrew names at the circumcision ceremony. Presumably he had a grandfather or uncle named Ze'ev. In Russia, he used Vladimir, but in Israel, he was known by his Hebrew name.--Gilabrand 12:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)