User talk:Zara1709

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[edit] Ostara (magazine)

Whether or not it's right wing (and I don't know anything about it - so no claim either way from me), (1)it is a POV statement to say it is, and (2) it is completely irrelevant in a disambiguation line linking it from an unrelated page. Aleta 22:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Excuse my rigorous tone, but

1) it is not point-of-view to state that the magazine Ostara was right-wing. If 'right-wing' is to ambiguous for you, I could substitute it with 'racist' or 'anti-Semitic'. In 'Ostara' Lanz von Liebenfels claimed that the aryan race was superior to all other races, especially to the so-called Semitic ones. This, of course, was his subjective opinion. That he had that point-of-view and elaborated it in the magazine Ostara, however, is an objective statement.

2) Furthermore, the magazine Ostara is not unrelated to the Ostara of this article. The Magazine Ostara was named after a supposed pagan Godness Ostara. Treating Ostara and Ostara (magazine) in different articles might actually qualify as a POV fork (see Wikipedia:Content forking). I know that most neopagans would absolutely rejecet the views of Lanz von Liebensfels; but there is a relation between Germanic mysticism and Germanic neopaganism. I think this should definitely be mentioned here. Zara1709 23:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, well I removed it again (either just before or just after posting my comments above. I still disagree with you, but if you put it back, I'll leave it alone, at least for the time being. As for the separate articles, I take your point about their being related as one is named for the other. However, one is a holiday, the other a magazine - two completely different entities - so I do not think it is a POV fork for them to be in separate articles. (Likewise, I would not a magazine called Christmas necessarily to be in the article on the holiday Christmas.) Aleta 23:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I don't know if you're aware of it, but I just discovered that there are nearly identical articles called Ostara and Ostara (Easter festival). I've posted proposed merger tags on the two pages. I though you might be interested. Aleta 23:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I look it up tomorrow. I have to be in the library anyway, since I'm writing a term paper on a related topic. Brief notes on Ostara are somewhere in: "Wilfried Daim: Der Mann, der Hitler die Ideen gab. Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels." I am quite sure that the speculation about a Goddness called Ostara was first, Lanz named his magazine after her and a holiday with that name is even a more recent invention, like a neopagan Easter. And unlike Christmas, a holiday called 'Ostara' is only observed by a really small minority. Also there doesn't need to be a separate article for every topic, especially not if they are such short articles anyway. Zara1709 00:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Would you please use edit summaries. I know saving repeatedly is advisable so you don't lose material, but you've made 18 consecutive edits to Eostre with only three edit summaries. Editors who use vandal fighting programs and the anti-vandal bots flag every edit you make without a summary as potential vandalism, and every time you hit "Save" without an edit summary on articles, it pops up as vandalism. With Easter coming up, even moreso. Fill the rest of the world in on what you are doing :-D - WeniWidiWiki 15:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Right, couldn't know that. I didn't think that bots and programs would react that paranoid. I will try to remember that. -Zara1709 16:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Germanic mysticism

Hello again. About your recent edits: I agree that the old introduction was miles too long and needed to be split, but the article already has sections on "GM and the Nazis" and on the postwar movements. Also, "relations to neopaganism" sounds a litle odd, as if Germanic neopaganism were something completely different. All the movements in the article are neopagan, even if some of them are also Christian at the same time. (Well, Wagner managed it.)

I'm thinking about moving parts of those two sections back into the intro (because they read like a summary) and moving other parts of them into the two last sections of the main text. But by all means revert me if you think it doesn't work out as good.

The other point is that much of this material was moved from Nazi mysticism into the new article because it mostly isn't a predecessor to Nazi ideology. (Hitler, after all, advocated "Positive Christianity", not Ariosophy.) Your edits broke the connection between Goodrick-Clarke and his finding that there is "little evidence of direct influence". I think it's important to note that Goodrick-Clarke himself finds few direct influences (and says so!) in spite of the title of his book.

Also, to say that the book is "rightly" titled The Occult Roots of Nazism is a point of view. I think, myself, that the book is very misleadingly titled since it actually demonstrates the opposite of what the title suggests, and I am not the first person who has commented on it. (But that is also a point of view, and I wouldn't want the article to state that one either.)

Writing over-long posts is one of my failings so I'll shut up now, but I hope we can agree on this. On the whole, our edits seem to work in the same direction. Gnostrat 00:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I knew that the edits could be problematic. When I wrote about Germanic mysticism as a predecessor to Nazi ideology in the edit summary, I meant that some ideological similarities are just striking (at least i.m.h.o.). However, I know quite well that there are but a few direct influences. I would completely agree with you to debate those few under Nazi mysticism; only that somehow the GM article has to stress the point that there are strong similarities, but few direct influences, right at the beginning. Otherwise the term Germanic mysticism would seem like a euphemism for a semi-religious racist and anti-Semitic ideology. I hopefully will find some time to work in the library with the book by Goodrick-Clarke in a few hours. I am quite sure that we can find a good agreement here. -Zara1709 04:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
You see that I added some quotes from the book to that section. Still, my attempt to summarize it could be done a lot better. When I wrote that it is rightly titled The Occult Roots of Nazism, I wanted that this title is really good. A title like: The occult Side of Nazism would have been bad, because Ariosophy was not that important for Nazism. On the other hand a historian (or religious scholar, if you like) must not downplay the relation between some semi-religious ideas and a the later implementation of the same ideas. This is the point in the critique of Stephen E. Flowers by Stefanie von Schnurbein. The book by Goodrick-Clarke is good, because he manages to find the middle between these two demands.-Zara1709 10:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I made some changes that I hope we can both agree on. First, I've tried to summarise it a little better (and some other minor stuff).
Secondly, I took out the word "rightly". I see what you meant by it, but I think it can be taken for POV and the meaning still comes across without it.
More importantly, I moved the quotes on Lanz to the last section. As things stood, we were discussing Lanz and his influence on Hitler out of sequence, at a point before the guy and his ideas have been properly introduced. (Not sure about introducing the term Ariosophy at this stage either, but I've left it in for now.) The connection between Lanz and Hitler is certainly worth discussing -- and in even greater detail than so far -- but there's room for it at the end. I think the first section is more the place for a short summary or overview.
Certainly I agree that something should be said about the Nazi 'connection' right at the beginning -- but maybe putting so much emphasis on this question right at the start detracts from considering GM as a movement in its own right? I often wonder if it is intellectually healthy that we are having to look at subjects of this nature always with hindsight and with one eye on Hitler.
You're right, it's important not to obscure connections. I'm just equally concerned not to give a questionable impression that there is some historical inevitability about the chain of causes. Anyway, "Occult Roots" implies that Nazism directly and organically grew out of Germanic occultism, and that isn't an appropriate phrase when we're talking about a party that mainstream Germanic occultists (I don't mean mavericks like Wiligut!) had no control over from the year it was founded.
I'm going to make one final change which is to merge the first two sections and just call the whole thing 'Overview'. We can keep that for a brief summary of the Nazi issue and put the more detailed discussion into 'GM and the Nazis'. I hope you're ok with my edits; if not, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Gnostrat 05:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, we still seem to disagree on the emphasis, that should be given to the relation between Germanic mysticism and Nazi mysticism. In my opinion their ideological similarities make the first a predecessor to the latter. This does not mean that I would endorse a view of historical inevitability. If it had not been for the crisis of the Weimarer Republik, Hitler would not have come to power, I think. This irrational occult sub-current did not really influence the political events. And - so much for direct influences - none of the ariosphic occultist later could influence nazi politics either. With all this modern mythology of Nazi occultism around, it would be quite important to distinguish between these two kinds of influences. I don't know if this is sufficient to explain my point. However, I don't want to spent too much time on wikipedia, and from my political viewpoint I can live with the articles as they are a.t.m. Living in Germany and dealing with German history, I have to look at this subject always with one eye on Hitler. I also wondered often if it is intellectually healthy to do this - this subject really destroys your faith in the good in humanity. But this 'evil' will not go away if one ignores it, although many people, especially in Germany, attempt this. -Zara1709 12:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christianization in Europe

Zara, thanks for you response to my static IP address regarding the points and additions I made to Christianization in Europe. Please feel free to contact me at American_cavalier@yahoo.com. Thanks!

[edit] Strohm

Hello Zara, just a note to say I haven't forgotten about the Strohm book. I'm having some problems with my e-mail connectivity and I will mail you as soon as I have it fixed. Gnostrat 20:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orphaned non-free image (Image:Amazing Stories Lemuria.jpg)

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Has cleared. -Zara1709 11:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Temple at Uppsala

Hi Zara, I see that you have run into the problem of the excavations under the church at Gamla Uppsala. Personally, I do *not* trust the excavation analysis, because I have studied archaeology and I am familiar with how extremely difficult it is to "confirm" anything. The excavations under the church found several wooden constructions, but the archaeologist in charge of the excavation did not consider the finding "conclusive" as to whether there was a pagan temple under the church, or not. The wooden constructions could have been the temple or an early wooden church.--Berig 15:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the information. Probably you might want to take a look at the controversies at Persecution of Germanic Pagans and Historical persecution by Christians. -Zara1709 15:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I will have a look later, or tomorrow. I am not too fond of "persecution of X" and "persecution by X" articles because by nature they are havens of both allegations and apologeticism. Good work on the article, BTW.--Berig 16:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christianization of Sweden

It's great that you began a revision of this section. There are many things to say about this part of Swedish history, and as your edits correctly emphasised, there was a long and rather peaceful co-existence.--Berig 19:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

The Original Barnstar
For your no-nonsense approach and valuable work in cleaning up murky topics in disarray, such as Nazi occultism. dab (𒁳) 13:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


Thanks for the appreciation. However, I can't understand what the difficulty behind Nazi occultism was anyway. One only needs to look it up in Goodrick-Clarke's book. I am more concerned about the whole religious persecution issue. -Zara1709 13:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
yes I know, it's only a matter of sitting down and doing it properly. The point is that certain topics attract more chaff than others. I've expressed what I think of the "persecution series" here. There are obviously some valid titles, such as Persecution of Huguenots under Louis XV. Others, such as "Persecution of Ancient Greek religion should be gently merged into more constructive approaches. dab (𒁳) 13:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persecution of Germanic Pagans issue

Liftarn, this is the final notice before I take this to the appropriate administrator noticeboard. We have a fundamental disagreement about the question whether there was a persecution of Germanic pagans and about whether there was a continuity of Germanic Paganism into the present time. The burden of proof is on your side. I have been willing to sort this out, but the discussion has been leading nowhere. It is also apparent that you performed your last revert at exactly 24:01 hours after the 2nd previous one. -Zara1709 15:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice timing. I did not notice. There are references given for each case (sometimes several) so I don't see what more I have to proof. I have also presented a published academic journal/book (it's a rather thin book and it has both ISBN and ISSN numbers) as evidence. You have so far been utterly unwilling to discuss the issue. // Liftarn
Liftarn, in the beginning I had accepted that the burden of proof was on my side. However, in the discussion on Talk:Historical persecution by Christians it became obvious that the burden of proof that there was a persecution of Germanic Pagans is on your side. Read Wikipedia:Fringe theories and make sure that you understand this. I said this previously, and you have never replied to it: If someone demands European history to be rewritten, he readily admits that he is an academic outsider. This is far below a request for mediation. If you continue to be disruptive, I have to ask that you get banned, at least from editing the relevant pages. -Zara1709 15:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
And I have indeed added information with references. As I said before you are entitled to your opinion however I must ask you not to be disruptive and use sources for all your statements in articles. // Liftarn
So you are accusing me of being disruptive and and not stating my sources? Does this mean that I am entitled to the opinion that you are not capable of applying Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Fringe theories effectively? -Zara1709 16:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The editing have been a bit messy at times, but I recall that you have added strong statements without sources. If I'm wrong please excuse me. Are you interested in making the articles better or more interested in ad hominem attacks? // Liftarn
No, I can't excuse this at the moment. There is no need to debate this further. -Zara1709 17:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I do think there is an obvious need to discuss the development of the articles. // Liftarn
what you are doing, Liftarn, is not honest discussion. You are playing (I hope) stupid in an attempt to spin the articles in your desired direction. You insist on building entire articles on "persecution" based on a single dubitable internet page stating prison inmates in a high security tract in some US prison at one point in 2001 were deprived of their Thor's Hammer medallions. That's ridiculous. You should accept with good grace that if you have no case, you have no case, no matter how much you wish you had a case. Anything else is not good faith editing. dab (𒁳) 09:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Let's count the sources again. I find four sources. I don't think The Boston Globe, NY Times and the First Amendment Center can be called "a single dubitable internet page". The only source that can be called that is perhaps PrisonerLife.com. // Liftarn
yes, so that's three reliable sources reporting that US courts uphold religious righs in US prisons. Where is the "persecution"? dab (𒁳) 09:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I find we already have a full article on this, Cutter v. Wilkinson. This is patently not about Asatru in particular, since the very claimants include a Satanist, a Wiccan and a white supremacist "Christian" besides two Asatruers. dab (𒁳) 10:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Since we are discussing this on my discussion page, let me add here too, that I would suggest to merge that part into Prisons in the United States.Zara1709 10:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I am actually enjoying this sort of thing now and again. It may have something to do with seeing all the puerile stupidity at large on the internet somehow makes one feel very mature and intelligent by comparison :) dab (𒁳) 19:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lords of Chaos

Yes I've read the book. I would be glad to help you out to make this a B article. What would you like me to do? Jmm6f488 16:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Now, for one thing I have only read the first edition. So if you have read the 2nd edition, you could help verify that it was indeed updated with a section on Nazi Ufos. Secondly, I need to decide if that book falls within the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Neopaganism or other projects. And 3rd, I think his "Wotanism"-thesis should be mentioned. The reason for the last point has something to do with my edits at Nazi occultism, but that should become obvious once we start. Zara1709 17:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Socionomics article

Zara, thanks for your thoughtful remarks on the socionomics talk page. Please know that I did not rewrite and post the socionomic article to "challenge" anyone -- I took scrupulous care to show that it meets all of Wikipedia's article standards. I also made sure I consulted the guide to deletion, which says:

If you think that an article was wrongly deleted, you can recreate the article. If you do decide to recreate it, pay careful attention to the reasons that were proffered for deletion. Overcome the objections, and show that your new, improved work meets Wikipedia article policies….If you manage to improve on the earlier version of the article and overcome its (perceived) shortcomings, the new article cannot be speedily deleted, and any attempt to remove it again must be settled before the community, on AFD.

I hope you agree that this does allow a careful editor to present a new and improved work. Thanks.--Rgfolsom 01:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lords of Chaos

I think you have done a good job so far with cleanup. I agree that Moynihan tries to make Black Metal into some type of mystic-fascist reawakening. His buddy Boyd Rice does the same thing with industrial and noise music. I think he also takes the Nazi imagery out of context. In the USA many Latino biker gangs use swastika's and Nazi images to shock people, not because they are Nazis. (Its kind of hard to be for white power if your not white). I think that many of the members of Black Metal bands did this when they were younger for the same reason, not because they were really Nazis.

I though you did a really good job with this article the one sentence you might want to consider changing would be:

Apparently, Moynihan is not so much interested in Black Metal as a subgenre of Heavy metal music, but in Black Metal as an extreme right political movement. He "is less concerned with sound than fury."[1] The last part of the final chapter is devoted to the tale of Ragnarök:

To maybe:

Apparently, Moynihan is not as interested in Black Metal as a subgenre of Heavy metal music, but in Black Metal as an extreme right political movement. He "is less concerned with sound than fury."[1] The last part of the final chapter is devoted to the tale of Ragnarök:

This is a minor changes but the first gives the impression that he is more or less unfamiliar with Black Metal (even though this may be the case) the second just seems less POV.

Great job!!! Jmm6f488 18:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

PS. You should change that "speaks English at a near native level" userbox, I thought from the way you wrote you were an American or from England. ;). Jmm6f488 07:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I commented on the talk page for this article. I asked Cyrus XIII if he could please show example of a non-neutral point of view instead of just tagging the whole article. I myself didn't see any huge point of view problem then again, I am in agreement with you on most points about both this author and this book. However, even if there maybe some small amount of bias in the article against Moynihan that we have both missed, I can't see it calling for a dispute tag. Maybe he just disagreed with the wording of a few sentences and was to quick to tag the whole article. I do think that if he is unable or unwilling to provide actually instances of bias in the article that the "neutrality dispute tag" should be removed. As it stands now, he gave no reason at all for placing the tag on the article. Jmm6f488 01:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I posted what I think are the two different versions that you and Cyrus think should be the opening to the article, please check and make sure they are correct. Jmm6f488 20:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I think your right but I think that there are editors who will agree with Cyrus. It maybe best to figure out what his criticisms are and change those parts that are not central to the article. Once we can get to the fundamentals then it will be easier to fill out the article without a lot of people trying to change the wording of the existing article.Jmm6f488 20:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Hitler and the Occult Screenshot.png

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[edit] help expanding article?

Would you like me to help you expand the contents section of the article. You seem to know a lot more about occult subjects than I do, but I am a big fan of both death metal and black metal and could help out particularly on the first few chapter of the book. Jmm6f488 21:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I add some new stuff particularly a link to National Socialist black metal that Moyhnihan spends most of the book obsessing about. Jmm6f488 16:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rightist Moynihan

This is from the German Wikipedia of Lords of Chaos. If I remember any of my German I think this says that Moynihan is a rightist extremist. (rechtsextremistische?) :

Dies hängt unter anderem mit den Verstrickungen von Michael Moynihan in die rechte bis rechtsextremistische Szene zusammen.

Jmm6f488 00:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't get discouraged

You have done a great job on the article. I think if he had actually read the book he would see there is no POV pushing going on. Anyway I made some changes to the article feel free to change anything I have added. The way I feel is that the article would still be basically a stub or start if you had not worked so hard on it. This is why I think you deserve final say on most of the edits. I think he is trying so hard to be neutral that the article misses some of the points Moyinahan brings up. Anyway keep up the good work! Jmm6f488 00:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletes

I hope none of the deletes were my fault. Anyway make a page like User:Zara1709/sandbox and store all your proposed editing there, that way you don't lose it. Jmm6f488 02:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

  • on an unrelated topic, I love Schwarzbiers what are some good brands I might be able to special order them in the states. I've tried some domestics and some local breweries that are owned by Germans and have always been impressed. Any suggestions? Jmm6f488 02:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
No, the edits are all preserved in the backlog. See the diff from 16:34, August 11, 2007. I would have appreciated it if you had reverted to my version and continued to edit that one, but Cyrus XIII would never have agreed to that anyway.
  • And unfortunately I am mostly (but not completely) Abstinenzler concerning alcohol. I know that there are probably thousands of beer brands in Germany, but I have only tasted a few and none of the was a Schwarzbier. Zara1709 02:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
cool, it must be hard in living in Germany being almost sober. You also make the best white wines. Anyway sorry I edited on top of of Cyrus' version not yours. As I said feel free to change any of the wording I put in. The only problem I think some of your edits have is tense. Which is understandably. From what I've heard from foreign speakers of English, English is easy to learn but we have a strange system of grammar. Don't feel bad, I barely passed an introduction to German and can't carry on a basic conversation in German. Jmm6f488 02:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging Fallen angels and Evil Angels

You indicated a willingness to perform the merge. Still willing? Pairadox 01:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but unfortunetely I only rarely have access to the internet at the moment. If I have q constqnt Internet connection again, I will do it. Zara1709 12:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lords of Chaos

I think that that one guy is gone if you would like to continue editing this page I will help you. Jmm6f488 07:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I think, I will add a few important points back into that article. But I only have access to the Internet at a Computer at the University at the momenent, so I don't have the ressources to work some new stuff in. I also made a note about this at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Of course, if you have some ideas of what do add, just do it. Zara1709 10:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for Thanking me

I'm new to editing on wikipedia, though I have used the site for a long time. I knew Lords of Chaos was full of crap anyways. I have a wide knowledge of metal and its history. So thanks for the kudos.Navnløs 18:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I could use your help

I don't know whether or not your into metal, but I made this article, Bestial Warlust, and now some people are trying to get it deleted becuase they dont think the band is noteworthy enough, and some other errors. I put my case here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bestial Warlust and would appreciate any help. I'm sure my article isn't perfect, and it made need some editing (after all I'm a n00b to this), but I believe this band deserves a page here on Wikipedia. You can see my reasons for that belief in my case. Thank you.Navnløs 22:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow thank you for helping me with that information. That was great stuff, and if I wasn't clear on my case, you certainly came up with a great reason to keep that article all by yourself.Navnløs 21:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Esotericism in Germany and Austria

The link in the anthroposophy article is a bit of a stretch, especially as the visible text and the article linked to are quite different in nature. "Spiritual and philosophical research" is not coextensive with German and Austrian esotericism. The latter article is interesting, though it needs some work; can we find another place to link to it (see also?)? Hgilbert 17:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Your new link is much better. Hgilbert 11:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, sometimes it takes a second attempt. :) (In don't mind you reverting the first attempt at all.) If you know something about the early history of Anthroposophy, would you like to help with Esotericism in Germany and Austria. My source is on Ariosophy, it doesn't include much about Anthroposophy. Zara1709 11:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Amazing Stories Lemuria.jpg

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[edit] Alleged Dubya quotes

The two sources you use for the statements allegedly made by Bush are both from sources with a strong anti-Bush POV. Our standards as to reliable sources require sourcing from impartial third-party sources, not parties to the controversies involved. If he said it, it should be easy to source from the local papers there or other contemporary reports. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, actually I don't live in the United States and I don't care THAT MUCH about this issue. But if no one else has written the few lines that are necessary to give the basic information about this, I guess I have to do it. Please consider participating in the discussion on Talk:Separation of church and state in the United States. Zara1709 (talk) 19:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guten Tag, Herren

Hello, I realize we have not talked in a long time, but you once thanked me for helping with the Lords Of Chaos article. You also once helped keep the Bestial Warlust article that I created. Once again, the article got nominated for deletion by a certain user I have had spats with. This time there is no way it will get deleted, however, if you like, feel free to comment on whether it should be kept or not. Thanks. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 23:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear Lord... Pat sighs... It is my personal opinion that the article should be deleted. I did not AfD the article because it was created by Navnlos. I have already stated on my talk page that I did not even know he created the said article. ScarianTalk 12:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My mistake

I'm sorry, I made a mistake: I thought I was "reverting" an edit that had long before been reverted. Apologies, please ignore the edit. dab (𒁳) 15:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historical persecution by Christians

Hi, the reason behind nominating this article for deletion was POV forking as the info could go into other Persecution of X articles. However, if this article stay, then I think other similar article like Persecution by Hindus etc. should be created otherwise article like this will become POV. Wikipedia has article on persecution by Christians, persecution by Muslims, but not persecution by Hindus. But throughout the history, there are numerous incidents of religious persecution by Hindus, against Buddhist in ancient times, and against Muslims and Christians in modern times. I think this gap should be filled. BTW I am withdrawing my nomination of Historical persecution by Christians since most of the people are eager to keep. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no reason you couldn't try to create an article Persecution by Hindus. But from what I know about the topic (which is essentially what I've learned from dealing with a section in religious persecution) you might not be able to find enough reliable sources that speak of "persecution". That we have cases of religious violence by Hindus should not be controversial, however. The appropriate place to deal with this would be Status of religious freedom in India. Concerning the 'Persecution by Christians' article - I am going to clean it up further and have proposed to move it in the meantime. Zara1709 (talk) 19:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Zara1709, I have to renominate the article for deletion because their are diverse opinions. I do understand that you do not feel good if an article with your contributions get deleted. But you and we all have to respect other's opinions also. As their are opinions for deleting the article, I am renominating it. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Zara. During the AfD I don't believe we saw eye to eye with respect to the arguments we forwaded. Perhaps it was due to the discussion occuring in the context of the AfD, wherein opinions will always be polarised and stances can easily be misunderstood. I also didn't mean to come across as confrontational, if that impression was being given. I think the renamed article (i.e. "Christian debate on ...") has more potential in terms of encyclopedicity - so I don't think the rename was a step back, but I do feel it wasn't well timed (that's in the past now, however). It can also always cite historical examples in the context of the debate. But I still have a problem with indiscriminate listings. If I have the time, I would be happy to discuss this with you further on the talk page. Regards, ITAQALLAH 18:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I took the last two weeks for some improvement on article. I also thought about whether my arguments were correct, but I didn't find anything wrong with them. The only reason for our strong disagreement that I can see is that have a strong inclusionist view [1] and you have a strong deletionist view [2]. But on the other hand - whereas there are probably no reliable sources for cases of persecution by Hindus, there are sufficient reliable sources for persecution by Christians; if I would spent a day on this I could probably gather the titles of 200 history books that deal with the topic. I actually just worked though one completely, the book by Coffey which I have quoted repeatedly. I can see the point in your concern that the article in its old state was probably a case of wp:SYN, and if we had talked outside of an afd about the topic, I would have been much less polemical. But this wasn't the argument for which the article was proposed for deletion in the first place. The point that Augistine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin have advocated religious persecution is in no way content forking from an article Persecution of Christians or any other "Persecution of" topic. And afds are like either/or questions anyway: either the article gets deleted or it doesn't. You can't compromise there. I was going to rewrite the article anyway, and I have already done some of the work. I will need to take a break from WP for a few days now, but when I am back I would welcome your comments. Zara1709 (talk) 20:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Collapsable sections

Hi! You have done considerable work on the {{nazism}}. There has been considerable discussion on the issue of the collapsable sections of templates like that one. I created a centralized place for discussion about this issue here. I hope you can bring your views to the discussion. - C mon (talk) 18:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your edits at WP:N/CA

I just wanted to say thank you for your edits - you've really tightened the text up and made it easier to understand Fritzpoll (talk) 16:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Nordic theory → Nordic race

Regarding your above request, WP:RM does not handle article merges, only article moves. If consensus has been achieved (to be honest, the talk page is a mess, and I didn't look through the whole thing), you should probably either list your request at WP:PM or appeal to a administrator who has extensive article-merging experience (I'm sorry I don't have one to recommend off the top of my head). JPG-GR (talk) 18:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The point is, the article IS ALREADY MERGED. But I merged the shorter article Nordic race in the longer article Nordic theory. Now only the current Nordic theory article needs to be moved to Nordic race, but since the discussion of that page needs to be archive somewhere, this will require some effort. I am sorry if the words "complex merger situation" were misleading, but this is what I meant by them. Zara1709 (talk) 21:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Religion freedom map.png

Hi there, about the map I have actually created it by using a website that provides maps; the book is actually called 'The Atlas of Religion' by Joanne O'Brien & Martin Palmer. They have given the maps on the internet which can be opened by PDF, so I have just used it from there to create it from openDemocracy[3].

[edit] Thule Society

[edit] AfD nomination of Thule Society

An article that you have been involved in editing, Thule Society, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thule Society. Thank you. LeadSongDog (talk) 17:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:N/CA

Because of the limited discussion, this proposal was marked rejected. It can be resurrected at any time, and may become useful in the future, but for now, just wanted to thank you for your contributions. Best wishes Fritzpoll (talk) 15:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thule deletion and edit/opinion wars

Zara, I tried to go in and at first cite and then NPOV the reference to Hitler in both the Walpurgisnacht and Thule Society pages. I see that my work in attempting to find middle ground pending credible sources for both has come to naught. I DO want to make a point of your statement that Hitler had NO interest in the occult. I have no clue what he was interested in, but there is a definite link (or association, as I tried to word it) between him and members of Thule. In the interest of NPOV and Encyclopedic form, I tried to keep the article unbiased. To state what you did without citations is, IMHO, not scholarly, and I don't want to get into an edit war on the page. I'm having trouble finding an academic enough source to show that, in the least, the people surrounding him WERE interested in the occult via the Thule Society, and thus his association. I'm open to discussion via email, or even better, phone. I've got free LD in North America, and also respond to email quicly. I'm also a member of the Neopaganism Project, and interested in "the Occult", although I prefer to call it "Gnosticism". Perhaps we might chat... chill AT r351570r.com Shamanchill (talk) 04:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you had gotten that impression, but I did not mean to assume bad faith, I just didn't have much time when I correct that one point. If you are interested in the topic, read The Occult Roots of Nazism (and don't believe things that are said in tv-documentaries.) I would write a longer apology, but I don't have much time now, either. Zara1709 (talk) 19:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I liked your edit in Walpurgisnacht. It was what I was trying to convey. I'll read the article you posted shortly, but still think that an "association" with Thule is appropriate to mention, given the number of, from what I've read, confirmed memebers in his inner circle. Shamanchill (talk) 14:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Mind if I jump in here? The Thule article actually does mention that Hans Frank and Rudolf Hess had been members before they became leading Nazis, but other associations only amount to people like Rosenberg and Eckart having attending some meetings. So, strictly speaking, there were no confirmed (and continuing) members in Hitler's inner circle. To rephrase what Zara said, don't believe everything you've read either. Reliable sources matter just as much as NPOV. I think the article as it stands is getting the balance about right and, since these questions are dealt with in the text, I don't feel that we need to make a lengthy point about it in the lead. Good to hear of your Neopagan/Gnostic interests, Shamanchill, and feel free to drop by my talk page if you want to discuss anything : ) Gnostrat (talk) 15:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't mind at all, and always welcome discourse. I'll concede the point for now, and agree about "History Channel Documentaries" (interested more in sensationalism than academic validity). That's what got me going on this, in that someone had a claim from one such documentary added to the Walpurgisnacht page and I was trying to work with it a bit to remove the bias. It's probably not worth the time involved to find that NPOV middle ground, although I think that there may be some validity to the "association" I mention and perhaps even and ideological link between the two organizations, whether Hitler was cognizant of it or not. Sending more specific comments to your own talk page, and thanks Zara for your time... . Shamanchill (talk) 19:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lost lands (mergure)

Just dropping a note on your mergure suggestion for this article. I would like to save the prehistorical facts and registered history about some lost lands as a seperate article if this mergure would occur. This is the part about the real submerged lands, probably with a general introduction that is not so much different from the present one, probably with a distinction between proven submerged lands from prehistorical times (Zealandia, Doggerland) and recorded history (Strand, Reimerswaal). Maybe a bit more complicated than just merging, but still worthwhile. Tschüß! Pepijnk (talk) 11:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maria Orsitsch

Hi Zara! Following a link from the german WP I found this article. I have some serious problems with it's contents and the non-fictitious way they are presented. As you did some very good work on the Vril-article i would just like to discuss with you whether the MO-article should be rewritten oder deleted (in the moment, i prefer the last). As writing on english is always somewhat complicated for me, i have also added a note on your german disk-page. nice greetings, Crypto-ffm (talk) 09:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] race egypt

i removed your race and culture section you cant be pitting two extreme views against one and another in the lead section and holdong a biased toward one or another it should hold for the most part mainstream views of egyptology today not the nordicist or afrocentrics views though it could be mentioned in race and culture but without a biased toward one or another,or in seperate sections, race and culture section its to sypathetic toward afrocentric leanings--Wikiscribe (talk) 15:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

your edit was removed again there are serious issues with your re work of the article and dont seem nuetral and issues have been raised on the talk page ,race of the ancient egyptians is a highly controverial issue so before makeing any further major changes post your changes on the talk page so a consenous can be reached,any further reverting will end up with the request the page being fully protected from any editing from an administrator--Wikiscribe (talk) 20:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I acknowledge that there may been an issue with my writing. But on the other hand YOU have an issue with your conduct. We can have a "serious" discussion on the article talk page, but don't delete without discussion first. Zara1709 (talk) 20:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Christian debate on persecution and toleration

Hi, I think this article should be renamed to "Religious persecution by Christians". Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 07:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I know that you are of this opinion, but do you have any arguments? You wrote previously on my talk page: "But you and we all have to respect other's opinions also." Actually, I don't have to. Imagine yourself in an university's history course on Christian history, and someone is of the opinion that Christians have never persecuted each other or other religions. You would not need to respect that opinion, because it is not sustainable and because the person who is of this opinion doesn't know much about Christianity: What about Augustine? What about Luther? What about Calvin? What about the Inquisition? etc...
On the other hand, imagine yourself handing in a paper titled "Persecution by Christians"; not titled "Persecution by Christians in the late Antiquity / late middle Ages / early modern times" but titled "Persecution by Christians". You can expect to get an F, because the teacher will ask: What about Locke? What about Pope John Paul II? What about Dietrich Bonhoeffer? or: What about Jesus himself?
We need an article on this. (Of course, it is relevant.) But we need an article that gives both sides. Debating one without the other would be against wp:NPOV. Zara1709 (talk) 12:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)