Talk:Zaragoza

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[edit] Name

A Google English-language search gave 23,600 hits for Saragossa (including many historical references) and 171,000 for Zaragoza. There's lots of noise, but we're talking almost an order of magnitude. Should we throw this one over? -Montréalais 07:34, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, and I got over four million pages for "Milano" even though it is indisputably "Milan" in English. Don't be a Google slave. Take into account these factors that boost the numbers you get for "Zaragoza".
  • Most people are ignorant and don't know what the name is. They may read it off maps, which give the local name. The fact that historians call it "Saragossa" shows that educated people call it so.
  • Most (again ignorant) people are familiar with the city through its football team, and football teams always use the local name.
  • Many pages are counted as English when they are actually not.
  • Many pages are not written by native speakers of English.
  • A minority of people just like saying "Zaragoza", "Milano", "Italia", "München", etc. to show off, or out of some idea that it's more correct.
  • The spelling "Zaragoza" found online disguises the fact that everyone pronounces it "Saragossa" anyway.
"Saragossa" is the correct name, and will be used on Wikipedia. Anyone searching for "Zaragoza" will be redirected to the correct page. The fact that lots of people don't know what it is called is just an argument for making sure there is a redirect. —Chameleon 20:43, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
  1. Having done further Googling, I find that nearly all of the hits for "Milano" in the first few pages are uses of the name in clearly Italian-language contexts, such as Italian names of institutions. Even so, there are nearly identical numbers of hits for "Milan" as "Milano" (circa 3 million each). By contrast, there are presently upwards of 20 times more hits for Zaragoza than Saragossa, and many more hits in the first few pages that use it in an English-language context. Many of the links to Saragossa are in a historical context, not a current one.
  2. Both of my English atlases give "Zaragoza" as the name of the city, even when giving other English-language names such as Seville, Rome, and Milan.
  3. I have never heard the city called Saragossa outside of Wikipedia before now.
  4. Even if we were to decide to use Saragossa as the article for the city, I deny that we ought to have the province at Saragossa (province). It is a Spanish administrative division, rarely referred to in English, and ought to use the Spanish name, just as we had Seville being the capital of the province of Sevilla before you intervened.
  5. In conclusion, the general rule is to use the most common name used by speakers of English. You have admitted above that the name most commonly used by speakers of English (regardless of whether they are map-readers or footballers) is Zaragoza.

- Montréalais 15:54, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

(I deleted some out-of context conversation) Pfortuny 07:03, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Let's look at this logically, with an irrelevant example. "Czechoslovakia" gets 1 million hits. "Czech Republic" gets over 8 million hits. Obviously, the country is called the "Czech Republic" now. Google hits are, therefore, informative. </bad logic> ugen64 22:57, May 11, 2004 (UTC)

Well, yes it is. Czechoslovakia doesn't exist anymore, any more than Yugoslavia or the Soviet Union do. Would you please clarify your point? - Montréalais 23:05, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
He's supporting you, so just chill and accept it. —Chameleon 01:14, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, in fact, we do expect you to take Wikipedia's community standards and procedures seriously, Chameleon. Editing here is a privilege — not a right. And by the way, as I said on your talk page, although you may be completely satisfied with the logic and internal consistency of your decisions regarding Zaragoza and Sevilla, your changes are in contravention of Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Please refer to those pages and if you want to propose a change, please discuss them first on the talk pages of the convention page in question. — Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 01:56, May 12, 2004 (UTC)

Who was talking about standards? —Chameleon 09:34, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

You might has resoluted the cuestion, but anyway I´m going to help you. google shows more pages with Zaragoza, simply because Zaragoza isn´t very famous, and if someone writes about it, he is Spanish. I prefer zaragoza, but I live in it and speak Spanish and I also have heard Saragossa.--FAR 22:24, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think Chameleon was very right using Saragossa as the correct name in English for the city and still don't understand why it's been changed to the Spanish name. I've read those reasons, but still don't find them convincing at all. Thanks to the redirect feature, those who don't know the correct name in English for the city can still find the entry. I'm from Saragossa but been living in the UK for nearly five years, and still find Saragossa very often over there... I can say British feel more comfortable when reading "Saragossa" rather than "Zaragoza" which sounds very foreign and raises doubts on how to pronounce it. You have mentioned football, however I even found Saragossa written in chalk when pubs announce their football TV schedule! Just because they feel "Zaragoza" very foreign. (this is a surprise for Saragossans visiting as tourists now that we have cheap direct flights to London). Sure, I was totally ignorant of "Saragossa" before I learned English, so that is probably why people from Saragossa do use "Zaragoza" instead when speaking their broken English :( But that should not be a point to be made! The city lost about two-thirds of its population after the French invasion of 1808. No doubt, that contributed to a loss of relevance that made people abroad forget about it, and altogether, loss of relevance of the proper, historial and actual English name "Saragossa".

Now the city is bouncing back, promoted by its own people, probably with the wrong name, just because we have lost conscience of our relevance in a European context along history and our English is poor! In a tourist bus, I once found written "PLEASE REMIND SEAT" (ie. "please remain seated"). While you get more links when googling for "Zaragoza", please analyse the "weight" of the links containing "Saragossa". Also remember, while the French contributed to the decay of "Saragossa", their actions here also made the city very very well known over there! And sure, they do say "Saragosse" and never "Zaragoza". Italians "Saragozza". Portuguese "Saragoça". Occitan and Polish "Saragossa". Mbroc 10:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name in Aragonese

I believe that the name Saragossa comes from the fact that the city is called Saragossa in Aragonese (and in Catalan too). I'm not terribly concerned about which one is ultimatley chosen, but I bristle at the use of the troubling adverb "formerly" in the article as it stands now. alternatively, perhaps? I would also suggest taking out the qualifying phrase "in English." Blondlieut 14:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Taifas

I've been trying to find more...any, really...information about current taifas in Europe. The information I have found is rather scant. I would like to know more if anyone has knowledge of them or an idea of where I can learn more?

[edit] Location, Location, Location

Is Zaragoza, Spain, a compromise solution reached during last year's move wars? Either Zaragoza or Saragossa would be closer to policy, so I'm assuming that's the reason. –Hajor 15:39, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, regardless of whether we want to call it Zaragoza or Saragossa (I vote for the first one), we ought to lose the disambiguation from the title. This is a pretty clear case of primary topic. Alas, yet again I find the target has an edit history and I'm not an admin, so if one is passing through could they please do the necessary. — Trilobite (Talk) 00:17, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Done. –Hajor 15:46, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-Spain Rulers

Whats that doing in the External Links section? That needs to be fixed. Yodakii 17:52, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Untranslated text moved from talk page

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 This article or section should be translated (or additional material should be added from material at es:Zaragoza). Please translate this.

[edit] Lugares de interés

Entre los lugares de interés para el visitante destacan:

  • El Pilar, una gran obra religiosa decorada con pinturas de Goya y su suegro Francisco Bayeu.
  • La Catedral de la Seo, recientemente restaurada y mezcla de estilos, desde sus basamentos románicos hasta el barroco pasando por el gótico y el mudéjar. No hay que dejar de ver su cimborrio, ábside, el retablo del altar mayor y el órgano.
  • El Palacio de La Aljafería: construcción árabe sede que fue del rey taifa de Saraqusta y actual de las Cortes de Aragon. Se puede visitar destacando el patio rodeado de arcos de herradura entrelazados con excelentes yeserías, el mirab, y la planta superior, de factura renacentista, con la gran escalera de acceso y el salón del trono.
  • La torre mudéjar de la iglesia de la Magdalena, en el Coso Bajo, en el arranque de la calle Mayor.
  • Las torres mudéjar de las Iglesias de San Miguel, San Gil y San Pablo.
  • El Tubo, laberinto de callejuelas salpicadas de bares situado tras la Plaza de España y que en la actualidad se encuentra un tanto venido a menos por el envejecimiento de sus edificios y habitantes y la construcción de un edificio de servicios de nueva planta y diseño.
  • La fábrica completamente metálica del Mercado Central.
  • Los restos de las antiguas murallas romanas.
  • La lonja, construcción renacentista situada en la plaza del Pilar.
  • Plaza de San Felipe y plaza de la Justicia.
  • La calle Alfonso.
  • El Casino Mercantil en la plaza de España.
  • Los Museos:
    • Centro de Historia de Zaragoza, Pza San Agustín nº2, (Barrio de la Magdalena)
    • Museo del Teatro Romano, C/ Verónica
    • Museo Pablo Gargallo, Pza. San Felipe, 3 Tel. 976 39 20 58
    • Museo Pilarista, Pza. del Pilar s/n Tel. 976 39 74 97
    • Museo de Zaragoza, Pza. de los Sitios, 6 Tel. 976 22 21 81
    • Museo Pablo Serrano, Pº María Agustín, 20 Tel. 976 28 06 59 / 976 28 06 60
    • Museo Camon Aznar, C/ Espoz y Mina, 23 Tel. 976 39 73 28
    • Museo Paleontológico, C/ Pedro Cerbuna, 12 Tel. 976 76 10 79
    • Museo Etnográfico, en la reproducción de casa ansotana de la entrada al Parque Primo de Rivera (El "parque grande")
  • Existen varios teatros, donde se muestran obras de interés general y en ocasiones obras de teatro alternativo.
  • Se cuenta con un Auditorio-Centro de Congresos que acapara la práctica totalidad de los muchos congresos y reuniones profesionales que se celebran en Zaragoza y también de la actividad musical de la capital. En este Auditorio tienen la sede el grupo Enigma-Orquesta de Cámara del Auditorio de Zaragoza, orquesta de formación variable que posee un convenio con este Auditorio y que tiene una pequeña temporada propia de conciertos, dedicándose con especial interés a la difusión de la música contemporánea. También ofrece concierto pedagógicos para escolares y colabora con el también coro del Auditorio, coro Amici Musicae. Continuando con la música clásica, también organizan conciertos las entidades de ahorro Ibercaja y CAI, así como Juventudes Musicales de Zaragoza, pero todas éstas de un modo más esporádico y enfocada a otro tipo de agrupaciones y público.
  • Aunque el ocio de la ciudad discurra por derroteros más modernos, como los cines, existiendo 5 ó 6 salas en torno a la que pasa por ser la via principal, y otros tantos más en los grandes centros comerciales de Grancasa y Augusta, habiéndo supuesto, la aparición de salas multicine, la desaparición de algunos de los cines de más solera aunque no ha impedido la supervivencia de alguna de las antiguas salas del centro.

Las zonas de marcha, son fundamentalmente Rollo (música comercial y de adolescentes), El Casco (para gente joven, universitaria), La Zona y Zuma.

Otros

  • El galacho de Juslibol: un meandro separado del rio Ebro y convertido en laguna. De interés ecológico y medioambiental.
  • Refugio de fauna silvestre de la Lomaza de Belchite (Zaragoza) [1].
  • El Parque Grande, como se conoce popularmente al parque Primo de Rivera.
  • El ambiente callejeando en la zona comprendida entre el Coso Bajo, calle Mayor, Mercado Central y el rio Ebro, disfrutando de sus plazuelas y bares tradicionales de tapas.
  • Para los que gusten de la arquitectura moderna, pueden visitar el Auditorio para ver su exterior, principalmente su fachada principal. También pueden visitar la nueva estación de ferrocarril, situada en la Avda. de Navarra, y la sede de la Confederación Regional de Empresarios de Aragon, situada en el barrio ACTUR, y que fue el pabellón de Aragón de la Expo' 92 de Sevilla.

[edit] Transport connections

Está comunicada con el resto de la Península mediante autovias y autopistas aunque la doble via hacia el Levante valenciano todavía se encuentra en una lentísima fase de ejecución. Hacia el Levante castellonense a través del Bajo Aragon la carretera es convencional y atraviesa el casco urbano de diversos pueblos.

Dispone Zaragoza de un aeropuerto muy próximo a la ciudad, de escaso tráfico, aunque el tráfico de mercancías está en auge. En períodos vacacionales tales como verano y Semana Santa se están programando vuelos charter desde el mismo con gran éxito. La situación de este aeropuerto entre los del Pais Vasco y Cataluña, atractores de gran parte de movimiento aéreo, así como la presencia anexa de una base aérea militar, podrían ser los motivos de que no haya un verdadero interés por alguna Administración en aumentar el aprovechamiento de este aeropuerto, pues conllevaría, para unos el desvio de parte de su tráfico -saturado- hacia estas instalaciones, y para otros la sobrecarga del espacio aéreo restringiendo su empleo militar.

[edit] Removing "American School of Warsaw" reference

I removed this because

  • It didn't belong above the disambiguation link
  • It makes an inaccurate statement that is not supported by citation

As far as I have been able to research, the American School of Warsaw is in Warsaw, Poland, not in Spain. Branches of the American School can be found all over the planet. The HQ is in Washington, DC. There may be an American School in Zaragoza, but I have not been able to determine this. If I have removed the line in error, please replace. But note that it belongs in the "Places of interest" section, NOT at the top before the disambiguation link. The presence of an American School is not the most important factoid about Zaragoza. Canonblack 17:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zaragoza vs Zarogoza

Where did the name change, and where did it come from Spain or Mexico? Zaragoza is in Spain. Zarogoza, nunca lo oí. Anselmocisneros 00:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demography Graph

The demography graph is bad. First it gives ten year intervals, then one year, which gives a distorted image. It should be only deceniia, or if data lacks, the 19x1 year. Also the image is a wee bit large. --145.99.202.93 21:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More name commentary.

From the city in other languages section: Muslim: Sarakusta; Proto-Latin: Salduba. What the heck is Proto-Latin? It doesn't show up on either the Latin page or the History of Latin page. Sure, there's the PIE, but that's a different kettle of fish. Also, "Muslim?" Muslim isn't a language- does this mean that the Muslims called the city a different name prior to the Reconquista? In other words, is this a political difference (in which case there should be more details), or a language difference (in which case a more specific language should be used, like Arabic)?

Also, the Zaragoza vs. Saragossa debate should probably be covered in this article somewhere (as noted on the talk page above). Regardless, they're both common names used and should both be bolded as per lead guidelines. SnowFire 06:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tagged for copyediting

This article contains a lot of good information, but the grammar, punctuation, and style are very sorely lacking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cantseetheforest (talk • contribs) 10:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Explain

Why is there a large box at the bottom listing pre-spanish rulers? Yet the ancient history, pre-moslem conquest is almost totally empty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.215.119 (talk) 23:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)