Talk:Zajdi, zajdi, jasno sonce

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Republic of Macedonia
Republic of Macedonia Portal
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Republic of Macedonia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Republic of Macedonia-related topics. Please visit the project page if you would like to participate. Happy editing!
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
To-do list for Zajdi, zajdi, jasno sonce: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh

No to-do list assigned
WikiProject Bulgaria
Bulgaria Portal
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Bulgaria, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Bulgaria-related topics. Please visit the project page if you would like to participate. Happy editing!
Stub This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
To-do list for Zajdi, zajdi, jasno sonce: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh

No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

Contents

[edit] Song Lyrics

Зајди, зајди јасно сонце
зајди помрачи се
и ти јасна ле месечино
бегај удави се.

Црнеј горо, црнеј сестро
двата да црнејме
ти за твојте лисја ле горо
јас за мојта младост.

Твојте лисја горо сестро
пак ќе ти се вратат
а мојата младост ле горо
нема да се врати. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jingiby (talk • contribs) 17:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


Чия е “Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце”?

Страстите около песента "Message for the Queen" в саундтрака към хитовия американски филм “300” преминаха фазата на национализма. Седмици наред българи, македонци и сърби спориха чия е песента, послужила за основа на разтърсващата мелодия. Край на спора сложи композиторът Тейлър Бейтс, който призна, че песента, изпята от иранката Азам Али, е заимствана от българската "Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SQPQemLmO0&mode=related&search=

Според акад. Николай Кауфман “Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце” категорично е българска. “Още преди Освобождението на тази основа се пеят няколко градски песни, обаче преди тях се пее една народна: “Булка върви, булка върви из гора зелена. Като върви, като върви жално плаче” и т. н. Този мотив се ползва от Любен Каравелов и той прави своята знаменита песен, която става едва ли не като химн навремето. Това си е една чисто българска песен”, каза академикът пред “Политика”. Според него македонците, които също се удариха в гърдите по повод на филма “300”, нямат основание да го правят. “Те действително са вземали много песни от нас, защото са били по това време българи, каквито сме и ние. Така че ако претендират за тая песен, нямат никакво основание, тъй като се знае откъде идва тя и къде отива”, категоричен е Николай Кауфман. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP-c_-lxus&mode=related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OLWFjMy3nw&mode=related&search=

Според друг виден фолклорист – проф. Георг Краев, “Зайди, зайди, ясно слънце” е балканска кръчмарска песен. “Има я поне в няколко песнопойки, без да се знае, че текстът е на Любен Каравелов, но тя е балканска, доколкото България е гнездото, откъдето се разпространяват тези песни”, каза пред “Политика” професорът. Той е по-либерален и към претенциите на македонците: “Те така да се каже имат известно право. Важното е, че песента се пее. Не виждам защо такива псевдонационалистически страсти се разиграват”. И настоява на своето: “Напротив – това е началото на шлагерната музика – музиката, която се запява от всички и която влиза в кръчмите.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqMWYahVEc8&mode=related&search=

“Нямам никакъв спор с проф. Краев. Смятам само, че той не е прав, като твърди, че странджанският химн “Ясен месец веч изгрява” е на същата основа. Неговата мелодия няма нищо общо с тази. “Зайди, зайди” си е мелодия, която си е закована от една страна от песента с текста на Любен Каравелов, а още преди това – с народната песен “Булка върви”, смята акад. Кауфман.


Tyler Bates - The composer of the movie "300" responding to Macedonian claims:

"As the composer of the music titled 'Message For The Queen', I would like to make it clear that while the introduction expresses the woodwind melody present in many recorded versions of the song "Zajdi, Zajdi Jasno Slance", this music is equally based on Bulgarian traditional folk music."

First lyric record of the song was published in Turnovo (Bulgaria) by Ljuben Karavelov in 1878.

Nice, but provide the source for this claims --Laveol T 15:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Usage

Can you please source the usage of the song before claiming it entirely as originating from the Republic of Macedonia. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Come in Macedonia and hear for yourself... Filipgd 17:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Please provide a source. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The formulation I use quite neutral even for your thinned standards, therefore you should not worry. Your formulation on the other hand is this-is-a-song-from-the-planet-Earth one. It needed a specification... I merely specified... Filipgd 17:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Again, please provide a source for the usage? Anyone can write an arbitrary description. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Would one require a source that kalinka is a Russian dance? In similar manner, this song is Macedonian of origin. I, least of all, deny its popularity around the Balkans Filipgd 17:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Kalinka (song) has a source. You have provided none for your claim. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Wrong, I invited you in Macedonia to see for yourself where has the song originated. Come here, be my guest... I'm sure we'll be able to settle down a lot of things. Filipgd 17:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I have asked you to provide sources, read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Claims should be backed up and I'm not simply going to take your word for its usage. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Search Google for yourself and see how many sources deem the song Bulgarian. That's it... Filipgd 17:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, come on, there was such a case a couple of months ago and ended up with an admin proposing the article for deletion (and it was later deleted as a result). Stop with the POV pushing already. --Laveol T 19:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I was just about to work out how many of the participants in the latest edit war I'd be going to block (fingers were itching, I can tell you), when I noticed Jingiby's most recent Solomonic edits may have resolved the dispute. Is that so? So, the upshot is it's not a folksong at all but an authored, modern song by a Macedonian guy based on a more traditional folk song from Bulgaria. Now, that's nice.

Only problem I have now is, if that's the case then the lyrics are probably copyrighted and need to be deleted from the article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Suit yourself... That song is Macedonian. Even the Gypsies (no offense!) in Vranje sing it bowing to its Macedonian origin. Nevertheless, such a small people as are we Macedonians cannot outvoice all those that stand against us. And, be said, that the lyrics of a folk song are not copyrighted, so please put them back, at least they are in plain Macedonian. Oh, yes, how is it that, everything we have, even a song, is always genuine Bulgarian? Why isn't it (at least once!) Serbian? Or Greek? Or Turkish? Or Albanian? Or Vlach? It's always Bulgarian. But let it be... They don't even have a song to be proud to... Except, maybe, Ратка пиратка, if one can be proud of that... Filipgd 22:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Did you even read Jingiby's edit? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Good work tracing the refs for the song Jingiby. --Laveol T 18:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I really don't understand why someone read Filip's bullshits. With Filip I know from MK.W, where he abuse all bulgarians issues, he don't work for good Wikiproject, he work for some his beliefs, for exaple non stop in MK.W he define bulgarians like fashists and chauvinists. For several times especially for him, editors showed and showed sources but he just said "I don't trade with my history" and did't show even one source. This is your style, Filip just dispute and express your hate to bulgarians. For him I know that i tnink his father is serbian and his mother is macedonian, and he live in Serbia. It's possibly this info to be a serail lie. For me Filip is clacical vadal who transform Wiki in FORUM. --Li4kata (talk) 11:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

The user Titikaka1 has removed sourced material and all references to Aleksandar Sarievski. Please discuss changes on this talk page before making such huge changes. --Hegumen (talk) 15:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The song is not a song from Sarievski, this is folk song. Please remove the infos about Sarievski! --Titikaka1 (talk) 22:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

This song (lyrics + musical accompaniment) is not the same song as Cernej goro, but rather a derivative work (and then, only in terms of lyrics). When Bulgarians sing Zajdi zajdi to Sarievski's music and claim it as their own, that's just preposterous. --Hegumen (talk) 00:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
We're such monsters, ain't we, stealing your cultural heritage (sarcasm warning). --Laveol T 00:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I still think Chernei goro should have it's own article. BalkanFever 01:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
That would be good. But still, calling it a Bulgarian song has no basis (other than the "Macedonians = Bulgarians" reasoning). --Hegumen (talk) 10:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
You mean besides the song being sung in Bulgaria? And besides the fact that the text is written by a Bulgarian revolutionary (from those that have nothing to do with Macedonia). --Laveol T 10:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
My class sung Time of Your Life by Green Day at our matura evening, does this mean I can go ahead and add that it's popular in Macedonia? --Hegumen (talk) 03:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This is exactly my point. Karavelov did not write Zajdi Zajdi. He wrote Chernei goro. They are two different songs. Therefore, there should be two different articles. BalkanFever 11:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

So what is the relation between these two songs? The text seems to be quite different, if the opening words are anything to go by (even I with my non-existent knowledge of you language(s) can see that), and the article says that the melody is "completely different" too? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The lyrics are loosely based on two old poems by Vasil Levski and Lyuben Karavelov, translated into standard Macedonian by Aleksandar Sarievski, neither having been put to music as far as I know. Sarievski composed the song — which is why it's funny when some Bulgarians sing it to his tune and claim it as being "100% Bulgarian". Many ordinary Bulgarians, and indeed many Macedonians, don't know that Sarievski actually composed Zajdi, zajdi and believe it's a folk song from some remote mountain town (or something along those lines). --Hegumen (talk) 05:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Therefore, in my opinion, there shouldn't be a problem in simply calling it a Macedonian or Macedonian song (unlike Makedonsko Devojče, Jovano Jovanke, More Sokol Pie, etc.). --Hegumen (talk) 06:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
This whole issue goes a lot further. Bulgarian television programs will play Macedonian songs only slightly changed (example). The singer only changes a few words; "Macedonia" to "Bulgaria", "Alexander" to "Asparukh" while keeping the rest of Vojo Stojanovski's song unchanged (original song). Ironic how Macedonians are accused of stealing songs and such by the very same people on that television program. --Hegumen (talk) 06:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

At the moment the article is a somewhat contradictory. The introduction states it's a Macedonian and Bulgarian song while the follow up section says it was written and composed by Sarievski. --Hegumen (talk) 06:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I added a template to the page. I'm not making the obvious edit, just so we don't start another war. BalkanFever 07:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cernej goro?

I don't think there should be a Cernej goro article because, as far as I can tell, there is no such song. It appears that he loosely based Zajdi, zajdi on a small section from an obscure poem written/collected by Lyuben Karavelov (?):

Сбирайте са, моми, булки, и млади ергене! Да чуете барем една песен и от мене. Събрахте са. Знайте сега, че моята песен не весели младо сърдце, мерише на плесен. Слънце ярко, слънце светло, зайди, помрачи са; а ти, ясна месечинко, бягай, удави са! Не светете на турските кръвави тирани, които са телата ни покриле със рани (...)

and on a few lines from another poem by Karavelov titled Bulka varvi iz gora zelena which Sarievski calls "Cernej goro":

Булка върви, булка върви през гора зелена, като върви, като върви, жално-милно плаче, жално-милно плаче, джанам, плаче и нарежда: Черней, горо, черней, сестро, двама да чернейме, ти за твойте листи, горо, аз за първо либе. Тебе та е, горо-ле сестро, слана осланила, мене ма е, горо-ле сестро, мама оженила, мама оженила, горо-ле сестро, за лудо-младо либе (...) твойте листи, горо-ле сестро, пак щът да покарат, мойта младост, горо-ле сестро не ще се повърне.

Can we now fix the article without editors like Laveol and Titikaka1 claiming it's a Bulgarian folk song? --Hegumen (talk) 10:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The interview is clear enough, sorry. The fact that you don't like it is only up to you. --Laveol T 17:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
There is no such song by that name he simply referred to as that. To be honest, I couldn't care less whose song it is. My problem is with people like you. --Hegumen (talk) 07:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
So you question his words? I don't care whom you have problems with - since the information is valid, your problem must be elsewhere. --Laveol T 20:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm only speculating, but I'd say he either didn't know the actual title of the poem or that it was colloquially referred to as that by people back then (the latter is least likely in my opinion). Either way, there's no poem by Karavelov called "Cernej goro" whether Sarievski referrer to one by that name or not. --Hegumen (talk) 03:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Instead of having a useless debate about whether those precise words are a valid title for the text/song/whatever in question, can somebody please clarify in the article in what form those words (or any other material from that song) were actually incorporated in the final song? The whole question of the relation between these songs is totally opaque to a reader who doesn't already know both. And then let's all weep together, my wiki-brothers, for fate has thrown us together with some mad young edit-warriors, every night they bring us fresh revert warring, and all the hours of our youth that we have wasted on it won't ever return.
Nifty poetry, by the way, if the web translations of the Karavelov stuff are anything to go by. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
It turns out at least two different works by Karavelov were used in the creation of the song. One of them is na Vasila Levski and it has:
Слънце ярко, слънце светло,
зайди, помрачи са;
а ти, ясна месечинко,
бягай, удави са
and the other is Bulka varvi is gora zelena which has "Черней, горо, черней, сестро, двама да чернейме" in it. It was published as early as 1878. Hmmm, could the relatives of Karavelov actually sue Sarievski since his relatives want to sue Bates? --Laveol T 15:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I gathered that much from this talk page. But why is nothing of this described in the article? To what extent is it literal copying of words from those older poems, or just re-using poetic motives? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
It is copied as a whole
Слънце ярко, слънце светло,
зайди, помрачи са;
а ти, ясна месечинко,
бягай, удави са!
has become
Zajdi, zajdi jasno sonce,
zajdi pomrači se,
i ti jasna le mesečino,
begaj udavi se.
and
Черней горо, черней, сестро, двама да чернейме -
ти за твойте листи, горо, аз за първо либе.
Твойте листи, горо-ле сестро, пак щът да покарат,
мойта младост, горо-ле сестро не ще се повърне.
is pretty much the same:
Crnej goro, crnej sestro,
dvata da crnejme,
ti za tvojte lisja le goro,
jas za mojta mladost.
Tvojte lisja goro sestro,
pak će ti se vratat,
a mojata mladost le goro,
nema da se vrati.
So it is a copy of two older songs - Bulgarian. What should we do now? --Laveol T 15:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Nothing, unless you want to write an article for both of those poems. I guess one could say it's a derivative work (and then, only in terms of lyrics). Zajdi, zajdi belongs to Sarievski and his family want to sue Bates because he used Sarievski's music. I'm glad this was finally settled. --Hegumen (talk) 04:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cheap propaganda

Sorry but I can`t let you spreading propaganda.The song isn`t Macedonian(from the historical-geographic area of Macedonia) but Rhodopian(from the Rhoropi mountains).I`m not even gonna waste my time explaining why the song can`t be from the region of Vardar Macedonia because everyone who is aware of the local folklore rhythms knows what I`m talking about.

The song originates from the Rhodopes, consequently it`s Bulgarian.It can`t be considered as Macedonian only because some composer got paid by the Jugoslav communists to change 10% of the text in order to create Macedonian "folklore". --BulgarianPatriot (talk) 19:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The song is loosely derived from the poems you mentioned though it still belongs to Ace. About the style of music... why would Sarievski have had to compose music in a distinctly Vardar way? BTW, Your figures are a little off. It's more like 8% as Tito was born in 1892 (100 - 92 = 8). It's all a huge conspiracy, you see. --Hegumen (talk) 20:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually the text is 100% taken from Karavelov and from Sarievski's own words the music is influenced by Cherney goro which it turns out actually is a song from the Rhodopes region. The article should be edited properly. I'll give it a day's thought and try something NPOV. --Laveol T 21:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
We are quoting the composer that the music is "completely different" from the original, aren't we? Any evidence to the contrary? (Note that with folk-style music what is or what isn't "completely different" is probably not an easy matter to decide, as such music tends to rely heavily on stereotypes anyway. In the absence of reliably sourced analyses, it's probably safer to stick to what we have and treat the melodies as separate.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Oooops, I was just gonna say he says the opposite when I saw it was completely. I can't imagine how I saw slightly ... or wait ... I can :) --Laveol T 22:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Question: Do you know that original melody? Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we just fully protect the page? It seems the last 50 edits consist of vandalism and me/Hegumen/Future/bot reverting it. BalkanFever 02:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


The melody "of Sarievski" isn`t simply similar to the origianl Bulgarian melody but utterly the same.The fact that he says that was only slightly influenced means totally nothing.He might had stated whatever he wanted but this doesn`t change the fact that the song is stolen and what he did is called plagiarism everywhere, no?.Furthermore the author of the soundtrack of '300'(from where started the dispute for the origin of the song) said that he used the Bulgarian folklore song "Zajdi, zajdi" and just changed the text with some artificial language. Now I`ll post the Bulgarian text of Karavelov which dates back to 1878:

Зайди, зайди ясно слънце, зайди, помрачи се, и ти ясна месечинко, зайди, удави се!

Плачи, горо, плачи, сестро, двете да заплачем - ти за твойте листя, горо, аз за мойта младост.

Твойте листя, горо, сестро, пак ще се завърнат, мойта младост, горо ле сестро, няма да се върне!

Transliteration: Zajdi, zajdi jasno slance, zajdi, pomrachi se, i ti jasna mesechino, zajdi, udavi se!

Plachi, goro, plachi sestro, dvete da zaplachem - ti za tvoite listja, goro, az za mojta mladost.

Tvoite listja, goro, pak shte se zavarnat, mojta mladost, goro le sestro, njama da se varne.

The performance of the original(Bulgarian) version of the song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP-c_-lxus

Macedonian version of Sarievski(transliteration):

Zajdi, zajdi jasno sonce, zajdi pomraci se, i ti jasna le mesechino, zajdi udavi se!

Crnej, goro, crnej sestro, dvajca da crnejme - ti za tvoite lisja le goro, jas za mojta mladost.

Tvojte lisja, goro sestro, pak ke ti se vratat , mojta mladost goro le sestro, nema da se vrati.

The performance of Sarievski(in Macedonian): http://youtube.com/watch?v=jqMWYahVEc8

You can clearly hear how he sings "SLANCE"(literary Bulgarian) instead of "SONCE"(Macedonian).If he had written the song himself, he would use the standard form in codified Macedonian, not the Bulgarian one.And pay attention to the melody- there is absolutely no difference which proves that Sarievski`s statement contains lies. When I`ve time I`ll edit the page giving source to every single statement, including the interview of the composer of "300", who says that the song is Bulgarian and will remove all untrue facts about the history of the song.If you keep reverting the propaganda article I`ll be forced to contact the admins. --BulgarianPatriot (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

1) The question if Sarievski committed "plagiarism" is nonsensical (the original song would never have been copyrighted in the first place, so it was free for grabs) and doesn't concern us here.
2) How do you know that what you describe as the "original Bulgarian" version in that youtube link is in fact the old, preexisting melody S. was familiar with before he wrote his, rather than just another modern re-performance of S.'s song? Have you got a recording older than S.'s version? Note that Karavelov's folk poem doesn't actually begin with the words "Зайди, зайди ясно слънце" (be it with "slance" or "sonce") but with "Слънце ярко, слънце светло", the first line is among the few that Sarievski actually changed; so the version you linked to can hardly be the original Karavelov.
3) The composer of the 300 soundtrack would hardly be a reliable source about the prehistory of the song.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
On #3. If there is an interview of Bates citing Bulgarian folklore influencies then this can and should be mentioned in the relevant articles. If he specifically refers to this song, then here to. If not, then no reference to this song, composer(s), singers and whatnot must be made or implied, assuming that there are no other reliable sources raising the "issue". --157.228.x.x (talk) 18:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
You think the video you gave proves anything? You ended up contradicting yourself. If there's a song from the Rhodopes called Zajdi, zajdi it's Karavelov who plagiarized it as Bulka varvi iz gora zelena is awfully similar. If Bates said that he was inspired by "Bulgarian music", that's simply his explanation (or possibly a way of avoiding plagiarism accusations?). What you posted was not Karavelov's original text! Look a little further up on this talk page and you'll see where I provided an excerpt of Karavelov's poem. Whichever way you look at it, the song sung by Macedonians, Serbs and Bulgarians alike belongs to Sarievski.
The word "sl'nce" is typical of the Galičnik dialect (interestingly, Sarievski happens to be from Galičnik). Admins? Go and tell Jimbo himself, vandal. Is there anything I missed?
You know... it may be worth while explaining all of this on the talk page in the article. At least then we won't have sock puppets like BulgarianPatriot spamming every Macedonian forum on the net with crap like "Zajdi, zajdi is Bulgarian!". I mean, just read the comments on the video for fuck's sake. --Hegumen (talk) 04:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This! IS! Spartaaa

Since many of the interested parties are around here, I would kindly request some reliable sources regarding this 300 Soundtrack sensation (some might even say brouhaha). Mind you I have already seen the piece (with all that Uber-elite youtube references) circulated in the early days by "RealityMacedonia.org.mk" (R.I.P. - BTW has anyone even noticed, back then that the site was "hacked" i.e. defaced?) plus that one by On.net allegedly carrying a responce by Bates himself. None of the above justified, even remotely, the notion that we must take for granted that this song was the inspiration of that song, that the composer committed plagiarism and all that, well, brouhaha. What exactly is this Valentina Gjorgievska talking about for us poor souls who can not read Cyrillic? What exactly is the status of her online publisher? --157.228.x.x (talk) 17:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Any takers? I'm afraid that without any reliable sources all references to this "identical melody-implied plagiarism" claims of "our most sacred" song and all that must be removed from every single article that have crawled into, including this one. --157.228.x.x (talk) 18:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I would tend to agree with 157, sources are required for statements that are likely to 'make waves'. However, before we go changing the article to reflect this need, let's get it ironed out here first and then post the results of the discussion in the article discussion for 300. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Putting aside that who-did-what, here's a follow-up summarizing this (non) issue. --157.228.x.x (talk) 21:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)