User talk:Yume no Kishi/Sandbox4

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[edit] Lead

Refer to these featured articles: Palpatine and Jason Voorhees:

The first paragraph of the mentioned article concentrate on the character in the real word, i.e. first appearance, introduction to the real world, portrayed by etc. e.g. "Palpatine is a fictional character in George Lucas's science fiction saga Star Wars..." and the second paragraph then concentrated on the role of the character in the work of fiction, e.g. "Palpatine is a major antagonist in Star Wars fiction...". Maybe you can update these articles accordingly (if such a split is practical and possible)? G.A.S 15:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Will this be possible with such little amount of real world info? The actors are in the infoboxes (I even disposed of the "Voice actresses" sections), "first appearance" is also there, and what else can be added? 夢の騎士Yume no Kishi - Talk 16:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Lets see
xxx (Japanese text) is a fictional character in xxx's magical girl manga and anime series Tokyo Mew Mew. She was introduced in the (magazine + no) as (description of character at the time). (Character) appears in the anime as... (Country) voice actor xxx voices the character in the anime by... and ..... voices the character in the English translation by....
Second paragraph
xxx is a major (antagonist etc) in TMM fiction. (Basic background and role in the series information here.)
Regards, G.A.S 17:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Still looks a bit redundant to the infobox - and it's much easier to write such stuff about characters from well-known films than characters from a random Japanese animated series... 夢の騎士Yume no Kishi - Talk 18:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree, yes, it is redundant, and yes, sources are scarce; but unfortunately this is what the guideline for notability (fiction) and the guideline for writing about fiction requires. And some editors really go out of their way to merge (read: redirect) character articles without real world information and sources to lists. The examples I gave could easily be adapted for the articles, since that information is known. I guess for this purpose we should see the infobox in isolation. My, how the tables turn... Regards, G.A.S 19:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I just remembered: there is a draft character guideline, maybe there is something useful: G.A.S 19:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Lead: Summary of context, including that this is a fictional character, who she or he was created by, what works he or she are from, her or his role in these works, and why he or she is notable. The usual WP:SS/WP:LEAD material. This should ideally be able to stand on its own as a potted summary.
  • Infobox: (Info about {{Infobox animanga character}} to come; include: don't use Japanese name here.)
  • Profile: Information revealed about the character through the storyline goes in these sections—note, however, it should maintain out-of-universe prose (see Writing about fiction for guidance) and should not be mistakeable for a biography. This can have subsections, such as "Appearance and personality" and "History", if encyclopedic treatment suggests separating them; attributes/abilities would normally go in the former, but they can be treated in a separate subsection if warranted (however, do not list every single named attack of the character, as a long list gives that undue weight). For this section, citations to the series as primary sources are appropriate, though for personality and other aspects that require reader/viewer interpretation, reviewer/critical/academic comments are strongly desired.
  • Development / Production notes: Out-of-universe information about the creation process, including influences upon the CREATORS. Differences between adaptations, both between media and during translation, would also be discussed here. The best sources of information are interviews and critical analysis; be especially careful of original research here. The name is flexible, depending on what better describes the content.
  • Voice Actors or Actors/Actresses (optional): Voice and/or live-action actors for English and Japanese productions. (Other languages should be left to their respective Wikipedias.) This can be included as a subsection of "Production notes", particularly if information about how actors approached the role is available. Character songs can be listed here a subsection.
  • Reception/influence: Out-of-universe information on responses to, popularity of, and influences upon OTHERS. Appearences in other works, poll results, sales figures, etc. are all valid topics here, as are reviews, critical essays, and academic analysis. Per WP:FICT, you must have at least some of this material in hand before you create a character article—this is the meat of your notability.
  • References: The preferred method for sourcing information is inline citations with footnotes in this section. For instructions, see WP:FOOT and WP:CITE. In rare cases it might be advisable to include a "See also" or "Further reading".
  • External links: The last section, containing links to official sites relating directly to the subject (both the Japanese- and English-language sites are acceptable). Other notable and useful sites may be added, but please follow Wikipedia:External Links.

I give up. It's just easier to merge them into a list. With the old version of the guidelines it was still possible to make neutral, well-written and verifiable articles on fictional characters - but no, it was rewritten because some users mistake Wikipedia for a free hosting for fansites... 夢の騎士Yume no Kishi - Talk 22:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better to start with the list? I am sure there has to be some info out there, I will have a look later. G.A.S 05:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Come to think about it; we have at least some good information that we can make something of:
  • Name origin
  • Some other details regarding the characters' origin
  • Differences between the manga and the anime
  • Differences between the Japanese and the English versions
  • Character songs
  • The live version of Tokyo Mew Mew
It may not be much, but if we can write something good about the above, or at least include a great amount of it, it should be enough to justify a separate article. G.A.S 05:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just random thoughts, nothing more...

All of this basically means what I always supposed: if a character article cannot be expanded beyond a plot summary (the thing that is discouraged on Wikipedia) and/or the character's biography, with the only kind of "out-of-universe" info being the creators and, in case of a film/TV show, the VAs (which is what most of them have anyway), then it's not notable; same goes for episodes' articles and any other articles on fictional subjects.

Well, one thing I noticed is that people often blame fans for creating these kinds of articles. I don't consider myself a fan of TMM, not even of Sailor Moon (absolutely love it, yes, but still not obsessed with it); I usually say I'm too old for such behavior (i.e. discussing things like, in case of TMM, whether Ichigo should be with Ryou or with Kish), even though I do know people who are older than me and still spend time on random fan forums discussing this stuff. I simply like anime, as a part of the culture of Japan; I particularly like magical girl anime, and I like TMM not just because of this, but because of its environmental theme - something I've been interested in since I was about five years old.

But really -

These are not fans, these are people who have no clue about how to organize stuff properly.

I maintain a small Sailor Moon fansite. I do have some chapter/episode summaries there, so anything of that kind placed on a character's page is redundant. (And Wikipedia simply doesn't permit long summaries.) As a result, the description of many secondary/minor characters is only one or two paragraphs long; note that it is not a pure plot description, but a kind of analysis of the character in question, in different versions of the story where possible (if they appear in both the manga and the anime) - think something like I did here and partially here.

So if I make a separate page for every single character of this kind (remember how many MotD/VotD there is in SM, I already used this example once), it'll make it hell to navigate through the site! So why would I do such a thing if I can very well list them all on one or two pages? If I need a link to the description of a particular character, I can link to his/her/its section in the list. Yes, the lists are long, but it's much easier to maintain a couple of lists than countless pages with little to no text on them.

As you can see, all of this has nothing to do with notability (it's a fansite, for goodness sake), yet it does look similar to what is happening here on Wikipedia?.. Only in this case people justify this by the characters/episodes not being notable. Interesting, no? This was originally done to prevent such kind of articles from being created, right? (I'll say stuff at WP:FICT sounds just a bit too scary, though. Makes me feel uneasy...) 夢の騎士Yume no Kishi - Talk 17:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. If there was a separate TMM Wiki, it would've been much easier to deal with the stuff here... 夢の騎士Yume no Kishi - Talk 17:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you: the reason for problem articles are because people does not know how to organise information. There are examples where minor characters have articles, but even plot-wise, no information exists. I.e. worse than the worst entry in the current minor character list. That is one of the reasons why I am revising WP:WAF at the moment. Secondly, WP:FICT has a lot of opposition as it currently stands, and the discussions to revise it is probably only suspended until such time WP:WAF has been revised. G.A.S 20:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean like List of Sailor Moon episodes with external links to Wikimoon? G.A.S 06:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, not exactly, not neccesarily with links, but the very existence of WikiMoon helps - if a fan feels like writing about some minor SM character, he/she can go and write it on WikiMoon, where it is encouraged, not here on Wikipedia where stuff like this is not allowed. I know many fiction-related Wiki-based sites - man, what do they write in their articles... but at least they have a place to do this. 夢の騎士Yume no Kishi - Talk 14:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for lead paragraph

Ichigo Momomiya (桃宮 いちご Momomiya Ichigo?, also known as Zoey Hanson in the English anime adaptation, Mew Mew Power by 4Kids Entertainment) is a fictional character in Reiko Yoshida's magical girl manga and anime series Tokyo Mew Mew. She was introduced in the magazine Monthly Nakayoshi as (description of character in the first chapter). Ichigo Momomiya appears in the anime as (description of character in the first episode). Japanese voice actor Saki Nakajima voices the character in the anime by Studio Pierrot and American voice actor Amanda Brown voices the character in the English translation by 4Kids Entertainment.
Ichigo Momomiya is the leader of "Tokyo Mew Mew", a group of girls whose DNA was merged with that of endangered species. A part of the "Mew Project", she possesses powers of an Iriomote Wildcat, which allow her to transform into an "ally of justice" - Mew Ichigo (ミュウイチゴ Myū Ichigo?, Mew Zoey in Mew Mew Power)

I have drafted the above lead per my suggestion above. It is totally up to you whether to use it or nor, but:

  • Most of the first paragraph's wording has been adapted from Image:LinkFA-star.pngPalpatine.
  • In the said article, the actor is provided in both the infobox and the lead paragraph, but the lead paragraph gives a little more information.
  • The lead paragraph allows to provide information about how the character appears in the first appearance, and where the first appearance was, where the infobox does not.
  • The above section can be, and still needs references for probably every sentence with real world information (which should not be too difficult to find).

Regards, G.A.S 11:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks a little redundant, but nice. One thing - "description of the character in the first episode/chapter" will be the same, and I'm not sure how to better write it. 夢の騎士Yume no Kishi - Talk 14:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
If you can write the description - or even better - find a review with a good decsription - we can work a good solution out. G.A.S 15:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Also - this version once again makes the VA section useless - and I've already put some additional stuff into it. 夢の騎士Yume no Kishi - Talk 15:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
No, actually it just means we need to find information about the response to/attitude to the voice acting. I know MMPU had an opninion regarding this, so there has to be more out there. Regards, G.A.S 16:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TMM in character shows

I don't know if this info is relevant, but oh well - maybe will go into the main article.

[edit] Content

The content per the draft seems to be missing some information: I will do some research regarding the info we have, and how we can organise it to provide better coverage of content. Some content I have picked up is that the article needs an appearances section, covering the role of the character in TMM and the sequel (Have a look at Palpatine's appearences section). More info will follow, I will also go through the articles' history in case something is there. G.A.S 19:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... appearances and role?
  • Firstly, in the manga the characters, apart from Ichigo, are not even given much backgroung (though they still do get some action on their own); their only purpose seems to be forming a classic team of five people. In the anime, they at least get two or three "character-centered" episodes each, although Ichigo still receives more attention than her comrades.
  • Secondly, in A la Mode Ichigo is temporarily replaced with Berry, and when she returns, she doesn't seem to be a powerful leader anymore, for she mainly works only in tandem with Berry. (One reason for why some fans of the original story dislike A la Mode.) All others are still present just to form a team.
These things have to be mentioned in at least some of the reviews. I think it'll be possible to find references for this stuff. 夢の騎士Yume no Kishi - Talk 07:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, we need to mention basically what you just told me, but with a bit more "meat". I do not think it is needed to give a lot of information on character specific episodes, except if it is needed to understand the character in the series. E.g. In episode 36 it is revealed why Ryou Shirogane started the project. I think this type of information is worth mentioning, not necessarily in detail, but definitely worth mentioning in 1-2 sentence(s) (as opposed the 10 sentences in the current article) G.A.S 09:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)