Talk:Yugoslav dinar

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Two pictures, no text. Enochlau 11:28, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] copyright on banknotes

i saw the remarks on the copyright concerns.

heres my thoughts: i own the bills i have posted pictures for. i took the pictures myself. the country they were issued by is no longer an institution. i value them for their artistic beauty. many times people take pictures of coinage, however, this issue is not brought up.

what are your thoughts? --Aryibcki 00:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

See discussion here: Image_talk:Deset2.jpg --Dijxtra 08:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] succession box

I tried to follow the style guide from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Style. I filled in some of the "none"s since even though the country didn't exist before/after in some cases, the people used some form of money, and that's the purpose of the succession box. If you want to switch back from Euro to Deutsche Mark again, please explain why (FRY says that Serbia uses the dinar and Montenegro uses the Euro). I got the date of 1918 from Kingdom of Yugoslavia; if that's not right for the use of the dinar, please explain why. Also, I assumed that Yugoslavia was occupied by Germany and using Reichsmarks, but am not certain. Feel free to fix that if I'm wrong. Mom2jandk 21:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hm. You just entered the hell of Balcans... The verb to asume is a no-no here, because you cannot assume anything about such a crazy region :-) To get the record straight - I think that succession boxes don't have any sence here. The successions of this area are so complicated that succession boxes are inapropriate. Now lets go to the details. On November 6, 1999 Montenegro decided that besides Yugoslavian dinar, official currency is Deutche Mark. When Germany addopted Euro, Montenegro did that too, so now currencies were Dinar and Euro. In 2001, Montenegro decided to abbandon Dinar and now uses only Euro. Then, Yugoslavia didn't exist prior to 1929, it was called Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes 1918(or is it 1919?)-1929, so Yugoslav Dinar didn't exist too. And finally, Yugoslavia was occupated by Germany, but some parts of Yugoslavia were a) anexed by Germany, b) anexed by Italy, c) anexed by Hungary, d) anexed by some more countries, but I'm not sure which (Bulgaria is a safe bet I think) e) used to create Independent State of Croatia f) used to create Serbia, and I'm not sure what was the legal status of Serbia. Therefore you don't want to write down every single currency that succedeed Yugoslav dinar in 1941 because it is damn long list. And you have to keep in mind that pictures presented here are scans of just one of editions of SFRY Dinar, because SFRY dinar had a number of editions because of high inflation (it devolved at least once). So, this article in fact is not about Yugoslavian dinar but about SFRY dinar... Now, I got lost in everything I wrote here and I think that it would be far better to just abandon the succession boxes and maybe write and paragraph in the article about succession... --Dijxtra 10:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your detailed reply. I like what you did, using "number of other currencies". That seems like a good compromise compared to trying to list everything. I'm going to update the boxes to make it a bit more obvious that they're referring to different countries/currencies. I'm not sure how to handle the KSCS. It's linked into the Kingdom of Yugoslavia page, so I assumed (again :) that it would be reasonable to call the KSCS dinar a "Yugoslav dinar". Otherwise, maybe the "KSCS" and "KSCS dinar" should be their own pages. My goal is to link the Austro-Hungarian krone to the Yugoslav currency, which admittedly is challenging, but I find it interesting to follow the paths of currencies. I embarked on this task to learn something new, and appreciate your help (and patience). Mom2jandk 20:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I'd say User:Dove1950 did a fabolous job and solved our problems with succession boxes :-) --Dijxtra 17:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ISO code?

Which ISO codes have been used for the Yugoslav dinar? The last one was YUD, and another one was YUM. Between which revaluations was YUM in use, and what codes were used for the other dinars? (218.228.195.44 12:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Serbian, Yugoslav dinar, krone

(moved from User talk:Dove1950)

Hi,

Before your recent edit, the article Serbian dinar, Yugoslav krone, and Yugoslav dinar conclude a linear succession relation: Serbian dinar - 1918 - Yugoslav krone - 1920 - Yugoslav dinar. Now that your edits suggest that it's more complicated than that. Currently they read:

In 1918, the Serbian dinar was replaced at par by the Yugoslav dinar, with the Yugoslav krone also circulating until 1920.
The krone was a short-lived, provisional currency used in the then newly formed Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes from 1918-11-12 until 1923.
Until 1918, the dinar was the currency of Serbia. It then became the currency of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, circulating alongside the krone until 1923, with 1 dinar = 4 kronen.

So I guess my questions are:

  • Did Serbian dinar and Yugoslav krone co-circulate? If yes, from when to when?
I can't tell
  • Did Yugoslav krone and Yugoslav dinar co-circulate? If yes, from when to when?
It seems that the answer is 1918 - 1923
  • Did Yugoslav dinar and Serbian dinar co-circulate? If yes, from when to when?
I can't tell

Thanks. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Another set of questions.
  • Around 1941
It seems that both articles say that the Serbian dinar replaced the first Yugo dinar at par. It is consistent. But I can't seem to find a source the specifies the ratio?
  • Around 1944/45
Your edit on Serbian dinar says that "This dinar circulated until 1944, when the Yugoslav dinar was reintroduced, replacing the Serbian dinar at a rate of 1 Yugoslav dinar = 20 Serbian dinara.", but then the succession box says 1945. Yugoslav dinar says 1944. GFD says 1945.
--ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Yet another question - how do you know that the novi dinar replaced its previous dinar at exactly 12 million to 1? I tried to find a number, but I got a few different numbers, that's why I put 10~13 million there in the first place..... --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 08:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for looking over my edits. With regard to the Yugoslav krone, there's no evidence that this replaced the dinar in those parts of Yugoslavia where it already circulated (i.e., Serbia). One GFD page says "The Dinar was introduced in Yugoslavia on December 25, 1918 to replace the Austrian Krone. The exchange rate was officially set at 1 Yugoslav Dinar = 4 Kronen on December 30, 1922." which indicates that the kronen was in circulation until at least the end of 1922. Unfortunately, I'm now struggling to find the source for the 1923 withdrawal date. The Serbian dinar became the Yugoslav dinar, so to ask if the two circulated alongside each other doesn't make any sense. Perhaps that needs clarifying.

In 1941, this was reversed, with the Yugoslav dinar becoming the Serbian dinar when the country was split up. Evidence for this comes from the fact that Yugoslav notes were issued for use in Serbia according to Pick (Something else that can be inserted). The 1944 date comes from the fact that the first notes are dated 1944 and that the liberation, though completed in 1945, was underway in 1944. The GFD table actually gives the date as 1943, though that must be wrong.

The explanation of the 7th to 8th conversion rate also comes from GFD. It's worth noting that GFD has two pages for each currency which don't always contain the same information. Your very nice template only links to one of the two pages.

Now it's my turn to ask a question. You've replaced the ordinals with years in the designations of the different dinara. I really don't like this for two reasons. First, in the succession boxes, we now see 1 1992 dinar = 10 1990 dinar, which is bound to confuse some people. Secondly, the currencies do have "real" names, although most never appeared on the currencies. These were

  • 1944 - Federation
  • 1966 - Hard
  • 1990 - Convertible
  • 1992 - Reformed
  • 1993 - October
  • 1/1/1994 - 1994
  • 24/1/1994 - Novi

Obviously, novi has to be in the article as it was on the currency for several years. For the others, can I suggest the following titles?

  • First dinar, 1918-1941
  • Second (Federation) dinar, 1944-1965
  • Third (Hard) dinar, 1966-1989
  • Fourth (Convertible) dinar, 1990-1992
  • Fifth (Reformed) dinar, 1992-1993
  • Sixth (October) dinar, 1993
  • Seventh (1994) dinar, 1994
  • Eighth (Novi) dinar, 1994-2003

Dove1950 11:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that the Serbian dinar became the Yugoslavian dinar, at least in Serbia. And in the new part of Yugoslavia, which were obtained from A-H Empire, the Yugoslav krone circulated for some time? If so, then the only valid question is when did the Yugo krone co-circulate with the other two. And I presume it should made clear that the Yogo krone circulated in what was approximately the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, but not in Serbia?

GFD also says "Before World War I, the Dinar had been used in Serbia, and the Austrian Kronen had been used in the Austrian parts of Yugsolavia. Yugoslavia eventually adopted the Serbian Dinar as its single currency with 1 Serbian Dinar (YUS) equal to 4 Kronen (YUK). The National Bank, first of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, and later of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, issued banknotes between 1920 and 1941." It seems that the Yugoslav dinar started in 1920, not 1918. Your edit on coins and banknotes also say that the coins and notes of hte first started in 1920 (I didn't made changes there).

The excel file shows

Currency Date
Bosnia section
Austro-Hungarian Kronen 01/24/1857-11/12/1918
Yugoslav Kronen 11/12/1918-12/25/1918
Yugoslav Serbian Dinar 12/25/1918-10/03/1929
Croatia section
Austro-Hungarian Kronen 01/24/1857-11/12/1918
Yugoslav Kronen 11/25/1918-12/25/1918
Yugoslav Serbian Dinar 12/25/1918-10/03/1929
Macedonia section
Serbian Dinar 1913-1918
Yugoslav Kronen 1918
Yugoslav Serbian Dinar 12/25/1918-1941
Montenegro section
Montenegro Perper 1910-11/26/1918
Yugoslav Kronen 11/1918-12/1918
Yugoslav Serbian Dinar 12/25/1918-04/17/1941
Serbia section
Serbian Dinar 11/08/1873-11/25/1918
Yugoslav Kronen 11/25/1918-12/25/1918
Yugoslav Serbian Dinar 12/25/1918-10/03/1929
Slovenia section
Austro-Hungarian Kronen 01/24/1857-11/12/1918
Yugoslav Kronen 11/25/1918-12/25/1918
Yugoslav Serbian Dinar 12/25/1918-10/03/1929

So what can we really conclude from these pieces of evidence?

Isn't it possible that 1944 was printed on the notes, but was not issued until 1945?

Regarding, 12 or 13 million in 1994. I just doubt that GFD is capable if providing such a specific information. We need cross-referencing.

And about the name of these different dinars, I just think that when people hear the term like "fifth dinar", he wouldn't know if that dinar suffered hyperinflation, if that dinar was issued before or after the break up. If I say 1992 dinar, then the answers are clear. Yes, the equality 1 1992 dinar = 10 1990 dinara can be confusing. I tried to address that by 1 "1992 dinar" = 10 "1990 dinar". But somebody rejected it. I believe that the names GFD gives are sketchy, or even made up. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 12:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll get on to the question regarding the krone. As to the dinar, the question is when we apply the name change. There is some validity to the idea of applying it in 1920 but, given that we want to call it the "Yugoslav dinar" and this country didn't exist until 1929, we're in danger of making things up ourselves. I'm sure the names in GFD aren't made up as I've seen them used elsewhere. I'll hunt that down too. It is possible that the notes were printed in 1944 and issued in 1945 so I'll look for some confirmation. Regarding the 12 million, I'll look for corroboration as that's the first time I've seen a fixed exchange rate.
Dove1950 11:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's one useful reference for 1994 which is a bit different from GFD. [1]
Dove1950 11:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into these matter. As my user page indicates, I'm busy in real life and is lagging far behind. I wish I could help. The reference you gave says "about 12 million". --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 01:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I have been trying to figure out exchange rates for this as well. This reference says 1DM = 6 trillion dinars on January 4, 1994. [2]
mreames 19:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language

So why was the Croatian version removed? |currency_name_in_local = Jugoslavenski dinar (Bosnian) (Croatian)
Југословенски динар (Serbian)
Jugoslovanski dinar (Slovene) Enlil Ninlil 07:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Because this currency is obsolete. And the infobox for obsolete currencies says "This infobox shows the latest status before this currency was rendered obsolete." This currency still lived until 2003. At that time, IMHO, there is only one official language in the Union of Serbia and Montenegro Yugoslavia. I will change the user to the more correct entity. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar

If you want to use Serbian grammar for dinar, at least use it correctly. This article uses genitive plural "dinara" and "novih dinara" on every occasion and it is used only after numbers ("500 dinara", "27 novih dinara"). The first section is about the declination and the article still requires a major revamp of all instances where dinar occurs. Admiral Norton (talk) 21:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you be willing to do this? I for one would be grateful.
Dove1950 (talk) 23:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
This is another advantage of using English: dinar/dinars. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)