Talk:You'll Never Walk Alone (song)

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Contents

[edit] MIFK and YNWA

I am from Mariehamn in Finland and I follow MIFK (or IFK Mariehamn as their real, official name actually is nowadays) diligently and there is no substance to the claim that the fan club, Green Mean Machine, would sing You'll Never Walk Alone. Therefore I took the liberty of deleting that statement. -Andy80 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.232.218.17 (talk) 12:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adicts Cover

There is a cover of this song done by the little known British band the Adicts and it is not mentioned in the article. I personally think it is a worthy cover and it is a shortened version of the song. vtmarxist | talk 8:23, Nov 22, 2007 —Preceding comment was added at 01:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Miner's strike

Wasnt the song also popular among miners on the picket lines during the Miners Strike? I think it has also been sung during other strikes and demonstrations. -DaveHUFC

[edit] Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

Is this the song that Eddie the Shipboard Computer sings during one of the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" scenes? Joyous 22:12, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

It certainly appears like it: [1]. That mightn't render properly if you're in Mozilla/Firefox or Opera. A cursory control+f for "walk alone" should give you the bit you're after, though. - Vague | Rant 10:08, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Eddie definitely sang the song in the radio series. As I recall, it was the ship's way of being helpful in the face of oncoming missiles. dbenbenn | talk 05:12, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] You'll Never Walk Alone and other clubs

On which club's supporters sang the song first, please discuss at Talk:Liverpool F.C.#You'll Never Walk Alone and other clubs. --Pkchan 16:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

RoyalBlueStuey, can you please present some evidence in support of your claim that a) YNWA was immediately adopted by Celtic supporters, and b) the song is invariably sung by them at football matches. I have spoken to a Celtic supporting friend who is unable to tell me exactly when the Scottish club started singing it, but that in his own personal experience Celtic supporters have sung the song "on and off over the last twenty years." Thankyou. Ste B 18:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea which club sang it first however the fact is that Celtic and Liverpool were both responsible for it becoming a football song (neither was copying off the other)...this was subsequently adopted by other fans. Just planting a liverpool flag on the song and adding Celtic to the list of Dutch, German and Australian clubs that might occasionally sing it is innacurate...still don't let that bother you. Not like a liverpool fan to try and airbrush history is it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RoyalBlueStuey (talk • contribs) 08:08, 24 May 2006

The unsupported claim that Celtic supporters started singing the song first is firmly rejected as being untrue. But yours is an interesting fallback position where we are now expected to believe that both Liverpool and Celtic supporters are equally responsible for making the song popular, presumably by adopting it at exactly the same time? But where is your evidence? I can't see it.
Historians have determined that Liverpool group Gerry & the Pacemakers' cover version made the song more popular in England than ever, and that it was immediately adopted by the Liverpool faithful who stood on the Spion Kop. No serious historian has ever claimed that Celtic had anything to do with the growth or popularity of the song at precisely this point in time.
For example, I can point to a BBC Panorama Television programme of 1964 that documents the mood of the Kop at the time (John Morgan, 'The Other Mersey Sound', BBC Panorama, 20 April, 1964. Partial audio here). I have also supplied quotes from Liverpool native Gerry Marsden himself explaining just why, and when, the Kop started singing it. You, on the other hand, have set about arguing backwards and submit your own unsupported opinion as if it were supporting evidence. This is unacceptable.
And so I will revert back, and will keep doing so, until you present something in the way of compelling evidence. Ste B 16:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Both of you are to STOP EDIT WARRING or risk a block. NSLE (T+C) at 00:43 UTC (2006-05-25)


Even before it was a anthem for casual people from a part of Antwerp called "'t Eilandje" !!!


Then what do you suggest I do when the same user persists in passing off his own unsupported opinion as fact? Ste B 02:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you both read the following: WP:CIV, WP:CITE, WP:NOR, WP:CON. Cheers, NSLE (T+C) at 02:10 UTC (2006-05-25)

All I'm saying is that Celtic's contribution needs to be acknowledged...you seem intent on stating that the entire world is copying lfc. This is not the case. You seems to think Gerry Marsden's popularisation of the song gives liverpool ownership of it but it was around for 15 years prior to this. The Bhoys have been singing the same song for basically the same period however you insist on lumping them in with teams from Australia & Japan. There's no point me trying to correct your bias 'cause you'll just revert it again. You've decided history (based on a chat you had with one Celtic supporter) so airbrush away. The facts are both sets of fans have been singing it for years, the others listed are clearly copying off liverpool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RoyalBlueStuey (talk • contribs) 08:34, 25 May 2006

Let me re-emphasise. WP:CITE. Unsourced claims do not belong in encyclopedias. Please provide sources for your claims. Should you go ahead and reinsert it into the article, then on the other side Ste B should not revert, or risk a block. Both of you got me? NSLE (T+C) at 08:45 UTC (2006-05-25)

Sources eh? Can't argue with "Historians" or "A friend" of some liverpool fan who claims, quite spuriously, that Celtic supporters only began singing YNWA in the mid-80s (and then only sporadically) or Gerry Marsden who insists it's his cover version (and his cover version alone) that started the whole thing. Both clubs have a long tradition of singing the song but one liverpool fan insists on stating that Celtic are just copying 'The Mighty Reds' & deserve lumping in with teams from the A & J Leagues. Anyway, it'll not be edited by me again 'cause I've got better things to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RoyalBlueStuey (talk • contribs) 09:30, 25 May 2006

RoyalBlueStuey, I am aware of the history of the song and where it originated; I simply stated that Gerry Marsden's version made the song more popular than before on this side of the Atlantic - that's a fair comment, is it not? I most certainly did not try to argue that the song is his, ours!, and ours alone (of course, I know people who still prefer the Doris Day version). The fact that Liverpool supporters have been singing this song consistently for decades is not in doubt (in the 60s and 70s, many supporters would sing the song when their team had lost a game, and were looking dejected). Further, I didn't "lump" Celtic in with any other team - the formatting you see before you was basically settled before I arrived here. Nor did I argue that Celtic supporters only ever started singing the song in the 80s, I merely said that I had spoken to a Celtic supporting friend - who had attended many matches during that period - and he told me that they had sung the song "on and off." It is not my responsibility to commence a detailed research project aimed at ascertaining exactly when, and how consistently, Celtic supporters started singing the song. However, if you do some basic research and present compelling sources then I'm sure no-one will have a problem with incorporating your findings. But as things stand, your transparent 'appeal to be friends' (can't we just get along and say both clubs made the song popular at the same time?) simply won't suffice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephen M. Birmingham (talk • contribs) 16:20, 25 May 2006

I'm not saying that we should agree that both teams started singing it at exactly the same time. You seem obsessed with establishing that lfc started singing it and that everyone else is copying off them. I'm merely stating that both clubs have long, long traditions of singing it (anecdotally I've been told it's at least 30 years in the case of the Bhoys), the text you insist on reverting does not acknowledge this (It basically say this is a liverpool song that other teams like to copy) and so is inaccurate. Anyway rewrite to the lot, have it so Rogers & Hammerstein copied off the kop. As I said, I'm done editing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RoyalBlueStuey (talk • contribs) 09:01, 26 May 2006

The following video clips help explain why and when Liverpool Football Club supporters embraced this song.
[2] John Morgan, 'The Other Mersey Sound', BBC Panorama, 1964.
[3] Archive footage of unknown origin, circa 1966.
[4] Liverpool vs. Everton, 1970.
SMB 21:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's quickly review the evidence. The song was released in the UK in 1963 by Liverpool Merseybeat group Gerry & the Pacemakers. This rendition had a slightly faster tempo than previous cover versions (which remained faithful to the slow moving original). [5] It was immediately played over the tannoy system at Anfield where they would routinely play the most popular songs of the day (it stayed at the top of the charts for four weeks). BBC Panorama recorded cast-iron video of the Spion Kop's "gay and inventive ferocity" in 1964. [6] Other news footage from that era captures the mood brilliantly. [7] The singing of YNWA at Anfield is also recorded in print media (newspapers, matchday magazines, souvenirs, etc). From empirical to anecdotal evidence we can safely conclude that Liverpool embraced the song from the early 1960s to the present day. On the other hand we have a handful of Celtic supporters who belatedly claim that, some years earlier, they made the song popular at Parkhead. And yet there seems to be nothing in film or print to substantiate their account. Furthermore, as the Anfield faithful observed directly, their Parkhead friends could not even muster a single verse of the song when they faced Liverpool away from home in 1966. Indeed, many longtime Celtic supporters do themselves agree:

The Kop sang YNWA beginning in 1963, when Gerry and the Pacemakers had it at No 1 in the charts, years before Celtic fans. Celtic fans started singing it in 1969-70. I remember being embarrassed by the Dons support at the 1970 Cup Final chanting "Ye're English" at us. Please don't quote Carousel as the starting point of it being sung by Celtic fans. [8]
Dennis O'Neill, who stood in the Jungle at Celtic Park in the 1970s, cannot recall any occasion when it was sung in his presence, saying that it was looked on as a "distinctly English" song. [9]

Historians agree. Liverpool are both early adopters and by far the most consistent singers. Now if anyone wants to overturn 40 years of documented history, then they should be prepared to present some verifiable evidence. smb1971 22:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I have always understood that the first time this song was sung by Celtic supporters was toward the end of the famous 7-1 Scottish League Cup Final victory against Rangers in 1957, as it was the first trophy the club had won in quite some significant time. I cannot source it, and I don't know that I'd say it was used regularly - not like, say, Bob Dylan's "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue" which was sung throughout the sixties whenever Celtic played and beat Rangers - but that's my understanding.I've a funny feeling that "Carousel" was either released not long before this in the Glasgow cinemas, or was perhaps being staged of the time in one of the city theatres/music halls. Perhaps someone can verify this or otherwise? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.194.100.111 (talk • contribs) 23:20, 19 March 2007
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility -- 'You'll Never Walk Alone' was not strictly exclusive to Liverpool Football Club in the 1960s early 1970s, as fans of all colours would occasionally belt it out on big occasions -- but I certainly have no impulse to falsify your speculative impressions ("I have always understood", "I cannot source it", "I don't know that I'd say it was used regularly", "I've a funny feeling", and "perhaps" etc). As stated above, Liverpool are both early adopters and by far the most consistent singers. The record firmly supports this. smb 01:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
liverpool and Celtic are the two clubs who have this song as part of their heritage & tradition. It should be acknowledged in the article. To just have it down as a liverpool song followed by a list of the other clubs who've sung it is inaccurate and smacks of cultural imperialism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RoyalBlueStuey (talk • contribs) 12:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Audio?

Is it possible to somehow include an actual recodring of this song? I'm sure there must be a "free" version somewhere. Surely someone must have recorded the fans singing? Lars 15:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

This link [10] will direct you to a partial video of Liverpool supporters singing the song. -- Ste B 23:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German clubs

I'm from Germany and I've never heard the fans of Mainz 05 singing that song!!! It's the Westkurve in Kaiserslautern who use to sing that song before the games,especially the last seasons.--84.166.166.121 15:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

also FC St. Pauli and about every club with a little bit of culture. (84.227.130.243 19:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC))

It seemed strange to see German fans singing this song in English after their shock defeat in the 2006 World Cup Semi-finals. My German friend tells me that 'You'll Never Walk Alone' is actually based on a German World War One soldier's song of the same name (in German, obviously :-). Why is there no mention of this?. Perhaps the song's origins were glossed-over due to the date of the musical and the ancestry of the composers?.160.84.253.241 10:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Australian

How can an Australian school team of a sport that is not even popular in that nation (soccer) be considered part of the list? That is just plain rediculous. Especially when you put them in the same category as 60,000 passionate supporters at Celtic Park. There is no comparison, that is like comparing a small toy Daewoo to a real Ferrari.

[edit] Marty Robbins

According to a PBS special I happened to be flipping through tonight about the late Marty Robbins, he also recorded this song somewhere around 1962.

Also, while the whole long discussion about UK football clubs is probably relevant, it does not need to be over 50% of the description of this song! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.35.80.77 (talk • contribs) 03:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

I agree. Perhaps some detail could be retained under the heading "Inspirational Sports Anthem", but the information about one specific cover version being performed at various testimonials, and how well it was sung on those specific occasions, is best probably removed. SMB 23:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tidy up

Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Perry Como etc, all them great singers. So what makes the Robson and Jerome version particularly noteworthy? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smb (talk • contribs) 23:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Recorded Versions

I've thrown out the list of Recorded Versions as it was too long, confusing, had no dates and contained various entries of doubtful importance. I've replaced it with a smaller but dated list taken from a book. Feel free to add other versions but make sure there's some kind of reference and add the date. Piet | Talk 19:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Should we have a table that details the various times the song charted?Yip1982 (talk) 13:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BBC Radio Scotland

John Cavanagh covered the history of this song for BBC Radio Scotland, Songlines, December 2006:

"From its origins in a Broadway musical to its adoption by football fans, You'll Never Walk Alone has proved to be one of the most inspirational songs of the 20th century. John Cavanagh traces its history."

Here is a link to the BBC Radio programme above [11] Is there any room for this perhaps? SMB 21:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A.C. Milan

It seems quite strange to me A.C. Milan fans sing this tune, since it is the anthem of the team which incredibly smashed them in the UEFA Champions League 2005 final, coming back from 3-0 to 3-3 and then winning on penalties... Where is the source? --87.10.191.199 21:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know wheter they sing this at AC Milan, but lets say Liverpool smashes Celtic or Feyenoord, do you think the supporters will no longer sing the song, just because the fans of another team who beated them sings the same song? I don't think so. SportsAddicted | discuss 01:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to add,I remember as a child (now 50) Jerry Lewis used to sing this song at the end of the Labor Day muscular dystrophy telethon. I have not seen that mentioned here.KelJack 17:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] As inspirational sports anthem

I strongly object to Barryob's edits. I have tried to reason with him on his talk page (thus far with no success). By moving Celtic off the list of clubs that adopted the song at a later point in time, the page serves to misinform, suggesting to readers therefore that Celtic adopted the song at about the same time as Liverpool, when clearly they picked it up at a much later date. Help in resolving this matter would be most welcome. smb 17:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Fine but I have moved Celtic to the top of the list as they are more associated with the song than any other of the teams on the list. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 17:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] not to be weird but non USA centric

Just wondering why, given the debates going on, that the first para mentions nothing of the sporting anthem... actually some stuff about USA grads... I absolutely get the decision to give the encyclopaedic definition to the R & H song, but I feel with the usual use (esp in the UK)(and I know this is terratorial but still the main use) the liverpool use should be mentioned Basmandude 23:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and add something to the lead section. Be bold. smb 00:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Shoved something in, thanks. Was a bit tired when seeing it a originally and couldn't think of a way to put it into a very tightly written intro. Basmandude 08:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First football (soccer) fans to sing the song?

I disagree with the wording "the song has SINCE gained popularity with other football fans around the world...". Unless someone can provide some conclusive evidence that Liverpool fans sang the song first, I think it has to say that the song is "also" popular amongst other fans. If I remember correctly, I think Celtic fans claim that they sang the song before Liverpool fans. Mr. Wood 16:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Please see previous discussions above. There is plenty of evidence that Liverpool Football Club supporters were the first to sing this song en masse. The song was famously covered by Liverpool group Gerry and the Pacemakers in 1963. [12] At this time, supporters standing on the Spion Kop at Anfield began singing popular chart songs of the day. The mood was precisely captured on camera by BBC Panorama in 1964. [13] One year later, when Liverpool met Leeds United in the FA Cup final, the travelling Kop sang the same song and Kenneth Wolstenholme commended the "Liverpool anthem".
So Liverpool have been singing You'll Never Walk Alone since 1963. Fully 44 years. Celtic sang it once or twice during the 1970s (the same as Aberdeen and Hibernian). Then nothing worthy of note until 1989, when they hosted Liverpool in a fundraiser for the victims of the Hillsborough disaster. Both sets of fans sang it together as a symbol of unity and support. Only in the years to follow - as both clubs repeatedly came together in a series of friendly matches - did Celtic begin to sing it with any degree of frequency, otherwise they have no legitimate claim to this song whatsoever, nor is there a shred of evidence seriously linking them to it. Liverpool can adduce written materials and video evidence. Celtic only supposition and hearsay. [14] smb 21:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Celtic association with the song

Celtic association with the song with the song means that is should be placed in the main paragraph, Im not denying that liverpool sung it first and neither is the text, and a reference is provided stating that it was later sung by Celtic --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 16:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Celtic Football Club is already recognised. The text you insist on inserting to the page is repetitive and disruptive of the present formatting (observe reference number two). This was pointed out to you once before, do you remember? On that occasion you responded to reason and withdrew from the discussion. So perhaps you can understand my slight annoyance with your sudden reappearance and unfriendly edit summary (diff) in which you scold me for edit warring!
Your argument for abandoning the current formatting and elevating the selective position of Celtic is not persuasive. It's based on the circular notion that, because Celtic are known to sing it, they therefore "should be placed in the main paragraph". It's not logical. Liverpool are unique among sports teams in that they started this tradition forty-four years ago; hence why the focus remains squarely on them. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - not a soapbox for you or I to promote our favourite teams. smb (talk) 20:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
It is not a circular notion that celtic are know to sing it did you read the reference its states that song is also associated with celtic. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 20:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
That is not my contention at all. Please take the necessary time to carefully read what I write, as opposed to something I didn't. It's not nice to be warned (solely) for edit warring and wrongly accused of using a sock. And now with page protection we have precisely one week to resolve our differences. For me the issue remains exactly the same: the unnecessary and unwarranted promotion of non-notable information relating to the history of this song. Please address these very issues and the ones previously raised in the back links above. smb (talk) 21:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

No Barryob, please stop. We were told we had one week to resolve any outstanding issues. I fully accepted this process and attempted to engage you in conversation, politely requesting that you address a number of legitimate points. You were unresponsive and failed to do so (as the page history attests). Now page protection has expired, up you pop again, inserting the same problematic wording into the article. You cannot be allowed to hold this page captive. On what basis do you insist on lifting Celtic from the list of soccer clubs that adopted this song at a later date? In all this time, you have failed to advance a reasonable explanation for your edit. smb (talk) 18:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The entire list is unsourced, and the one and only source provided for the liverpool talks about how the song is associated with celtic. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 18:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The source (here) addresses the question of which soccer club sang this song first. Nobody disputes that Celtic are known to sing it; which is why they are properly recognised as one such club that adopted the song at a later date. If you want editors to provide sources for each and every club on the list, then make that case separately. Please don't conflate two separate issues. smb (talk) 19:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The section heading does not say Which club sang the song first it is As inspirational sports anthem and the song is widly recognised as an inspirational sports anthem for Celtic with a source to back it up hense why they sould be included in the paragraph per its heading. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 19:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The section heading is not intended to convey an answer to the question of which soccer club sang the song first. The answer is implicit in the paragraph immediately below (complete with source). But you keep switching tracks. You misrepresent the source before reverting back to your circular argument that Celtic are somehow special and deserve more attention than those other clubs. Hence by their very nature, Celtic deserve to be in the opening along with Liverpool, who, after all, only started this inspirational tradition! And as I put to you before: "if we plunge this slippery slope, then why elevate only two such clubs - why not three, four or possibly five? Is it because you want to lend greater significance and weight to Celtic than is historically accurate?" This page isn't Who sang You'll Never Walk Alone first? or Who sings You'll Never Walk Alone loudest? or I like Celtic lots. It's You'll Never Walk Alone (song). Sporting tradition is only one part of it. But your actions are turning it into a battle ground. smb (talk) 20:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be under the impression that because Livepool sung it first the song is most associated with them even though the soure providing the former also shows the latter is not the case, you are the one turning the page into a battle ground by refusing to allow the section to mention anyone but Liverpool and relegate anyone else into a serperate list regardless of their assoication with the song. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 20:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
But the song is most associated with Liverpool. A Google News search for Liverpool produces 1,710 results [15] whereas Celtic returns only 224 hits. [16] Liverpool started this tradition in 1963; Celtic copied them decades later. And that is why they sit correctly on a list of soccer clubs that adopted the song at a later point in time. All of the evidence goes against you. smb (talk) 21:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
A google news search is irrelvant using a normal google search [17] liverpool 797,000 [18] Celtic 355.000 compare that with some of the other teams on the list [19] Ipswich 33,100 [20] VfB Stuttgart 9,230. No one is denying that Liverpool sung the song first but that is not what the section is about As inspirational sports anthem again the song is an inspirational sports anthem for Celtic and is closly associated with the team as the provided source states which would warrant its inclusion in the team not on some usourced list of teams --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 22:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Again, your are in error. A plain Google search produces 497,000 results for Liverpool [21] and 68,200 [22] for Celtic (not 355.000 as you had falsely claimed). You cannot ignore these results. There is nothing wrong with the current formatting of this individual section, which is but one part of the page. It tells how/when 'You'll Never Walk Alone' became an 'Inspirational sports anthem'. It's not there for you, I, or any anybody else, to promote our favourite teams. This is an encyclopedia, not a Fanzine. smb (talk) 07:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
having Celtic as just another team that sing the song would be as invalid as just putting liverpool in the list too. whilst other the teams that sing it those two clubs in particular have it as part of their heritage. The article doesn't reflect this. I'd suggest stating it at the start of the "As an inspirational sports anthem" also is that section not a bit clunky "Why not just have "As a sports anthem". What is the consensus? RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 09:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no consensus, which is why users shouldn't start making difficult and unintentionally misleading edits to the page. A number of false statements have been made. In truth, Celtic adopted this song long after Liverpool and Ipswich Town. The latter may not have had anything to sing about for many, many years, but that does not detract from the historical truth that dozens of other soccer teams sang this song long before Celtic ever did. And yet you repeat Barryob's dubious assertion that somehow they deserve special treatment, without providing a persuasive reason why. As I argued previously, by removing Celtic from the list and onto the main section, you also alter the meaning of the page to suggest that Celtic adopted the song near or around the same time as Liverpool, and before Ipswich Town, both of which are flatly wrong. Please don't make any more inaccurate edits until consensus is reached. smb 19:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Again for the umpteenth time the section is not about who sang it first and even then only one source is provided and it only states when Liverpool started singing not when anyone else did. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 19:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the section is not solely about where this tradition began, though this question must be answered in order for readers to understand 'how' and 'when' it became associated with soccer, hence the main paragraph. Next we have a list of clubs that later adopted this song as their own, and more importantly, then several words devoted to the Valley Parade fire in which fifty-two Bradford City soccer supporters lost their lives. Its origin as a sports title is notable. So too the fact it was released in solidarity with the people of Bradford. It may also be partly responsible for Spain gaining lyrics to their wordless national anthem. But exactly what is notable about countless other clubs singing it, that one in particular, Celtic, needs to be elevated into the main paragraph beside Liverpool? Because you happen to support them? Tell me, why? You still haven't provided a coherent answer to this and other questions. smb 20:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
It's nothing to do with who people support. The article doesn't reflect the the fact that it is part of Celtic's tradition & heritage and has been for two generations, this is not the case for the likes of Ipswich or Rapid Vienna. Why is the problem with the article reflecting this? Also labelling the article as and 'inspirational' sports anthem is a form of Weasle words. Thoughts? Recommendations? RoyalBlueStuey 09:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
"The article doesn't reflect the the fact that it is part of Celtic's tradition & heritage and has been for two generations... Why is the problem with the article reflecting this?" Because it's plainly incorrect. This misconception is compounded by the misuse of the second source, which only explains when Liverpool adopted it. The same source does not not provide a date for Celtic. On the issue of the header, would you like to expand on why it's weasel? smb 12:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Because it's an opinion given as a statement of fact. It is most definitely a sporting anthem...whether or not it's inspirational is in the eye of the beholder. As to the Celtic/Ipswich/liverpool issue the article already mentions that it was liverpool fans who first sang the song before going on to mention the Shankly Gates in the sports anthem section...it seems odd that any mention of how other clubs treat their anthem is ommitted from this section (Celtic for example sing it before and after each game, played it at Jimmy Johnstone's funeral and dedicated a rendition of it to the victims of the Madrid train bombings). The article as it stands basically reads as if liverpool have somehow taken sole ownership of the song. I have no idea on how close YNWA is to the hearts of Ipswich fans but even a cursory knowledge of Celtic & it's history (or even a 5 minute web search) show's it's part of their heritage so why not have the article reflect it? I would suggest that any mention of origins be taken out of the sporting anthem section with the "tradition began at liverpool" remaining in the article's into. Agree? RoyalBlueStuey 15:37, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
That seems fair enough, I pretty much agree with that. By the way I removed the inspirational bit, as that is WP:NPOV, certainly without a source stating it is inspirational for all the clubs in that section. John Hayestalk 15:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I oppose any proposal to remove information pertaining to its origin as a sporting anthem. That section needs expanding, not removing entirely. Gerry Marsden explained to BBC's John Cavanagh in 2006 why Liverpool supporters began singing it on matchday moments before kickoff. I plan to include (and source) this history in the very near future. The lead section is intended to reflect the article, so deleting "any mention of origins" elsewhere means the short reference in the summary could quite legitimately be removed too. Quite why RoyalBlueStuey would propose ditching well sourced and relevant information, then replacing it with trivia, one can only speculate. I also oppose the inclusion of any non-notable information, in keeping with Wikipedia guidelines. smb 20:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't think anyone is proposing to remove such information, I'm certainly not. I only removed the word "inspirational" from the section title. Has RoyalBlueStuey suggested something like that? John Hayestalk 22:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, exactly four posts above. RoyalBlueStuey: "I would suggest that any mention of origins be taken out of the sporting anthem section with the 'tradition began at liverpool' remaining in the article's into. Agree?" You responded: "That seems fair enough..." Moreover, I would have thought consensus could easily be achieved on 'Inspirational sports anthem'. There are innumerable reliable sources who express this view (and none, that I can find, who object to it). Perhaps it takes a rival supporter to disagree. :) smb 23:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I have misunderstood what he meant, but I assumed he meant removing the details of that version of the song, and moving it up to the main section, as the Gerry & The Pacemakers version is more than just a sports anthem, and as the most successful version (based on charts) needs to be mentioned outside of the sporting context. Maybe that's not what he meant, but it's what I think. On the issue of inspirational I think that while it probably is (to Liverpool, we would need to provide evidence that it is inspirational to all those teams, not just another chant, otherwise it is a misleading title. I think that issue can be much better dealt with my mentioning it in the paragraph on Liverpool. Finally I am wondering if we need a generic sports section with football as a subsection, as in North America marching bands, and drums corps can be considered a sport too, and we shouldn't be too euro-centric.John Hayestalk 07:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately Stuey hasn't thought to clarify his position, so I can only go on what he has actually written. smb (talk) 20:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Anyone else got any thoughts on this? Can anyone chip in with the Ipswich details...I could concentrate on the Celtic ones? RoyalBlueStuey 16:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I am glad to see progress is being made I still beleive given Celticsa ssociation with the song should be given more than just a simple mention on the list. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 00:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
This is sounding more like a consensus. What Celtic and Ipswich facts should be included? I think Jimmy Johnstone's funeral and the fact it's played before and after every game at Parkhead is worthy of mention.RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 12:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Well as long as it is notable and verifiable anything can be added. It's up to you to decide if it meets those policies (and show it by citing sources). John Hayestalk 17:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Are we now going to maintain a list of burials at which the song was played? I can add twenty-odd, easy. Can't you find something about Celtic's embrace that is the least bit notable? How about when Celtic hosted Liverpool in a fundraiser for the victims of the Hillsborough disaster. Both sets of fans sang it together as a symbol of unity and support. That's commonly thought to be the occasion when Celtic adopted it, as both clubs repeatedly came together in a series of friendly matches in the years to follow. It's better than saying it was played at player-x's funeral or that Celtic fans sing it on matchday. smb (talk) 20:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
If any of the burials are notable, and relevant to the article, then yes. If not then no. John Hayestalk 00:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
And can you provide a source for the "commonly thought to be the occasion when Celtic adopted it"?.John Hayestalk 00:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I haven't seen anything reliable in print that firmly establishes when Celtic adopted it, though it's not essential to assert a starting point; I merely thought Celtic extending their hand during those darks days was sufficiently notable for inclusion. According to Chris Bascombe, "it wasn't the European meetings which sealed the bond between the clubs. It was a game in 1989 at Parkhead. When Liverpool needed a friend most, in the aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster, it was Celtic who offered their hand". (Liverpool Echo) Kenny Dalglish said he was deeply touched when the Celtic fans "held up their scarves and sang You'll Never Walk Alone". (Daily Record) smb (talk) 20:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
You are definitely wrong there. The Celtic fans were singing it a long time before Hillsborough. And there's no need to be facetious. I just thought it was relevant & noteworthy 'cause jinky was one of their greatest ever players. They played ynwa as his coffin was carried out by 4 of the Lisbon Lions : http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/-Parkhead-Pics-t5432.html RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 10:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Celtic fans may have sung it a long time before, but they did not sing it with any degree of frequency (i.e. adopt it) until after the Hillsborough disaster. Manchester United belted it out at the 1983 F.A. Cup Final, joining in with Brighton and Hove Albion supporters, but that doesn't qualify as anything other than an individual, isolated case. The same applies to Aberdeen, Everton, Arsenal, etc etc. On the other hand, Ipswich Town sang it fairly consistently for a number of years. The only way I know to source this is to list commercially available video recordings of historic fixtures. For example, I know Celtic sang it at Parkhead in 1989 (and many times after) because I retain a CBS Fox recording. If you wish to say that Celtic sang it long before, and often, then source it to specific recordings. If it's allowed. See for example www.youtube.com/ynwa smb (talk) 20:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

smb has requested some other users look at this issue. Before I start I should mention that I am a supporter of Liverpool, but I try my best to remain neutral when it comes to articles involving the club (please look at my edit history to confirm this). Firstly this sort of editing behaviour is disruptive to wikipedia, just reverting changes without reaching some sort of consesus is not ideal, that goes for both sides. Secondly the subject of the article is the song, not any football clubs, and while its place in sport is part of the song's history, it is only a part of it. Liverpool is briefly mentioned in the opening paragraph, and I would suggest this is reasonable enough, as it probably is associated with them more than any other club, though it would be nice to have a source which backs this up. In terms of the sporting section I wouldn't mind seeing more info on Celtic, as it is also strongely associated with them, certainly more than most of the other clubs in that list, notice Sky's coverage when both Liverpool and Celtic play at home in the Champions League; twice this season they have shown both sets of supporters, simultaniously singing the song. But any info needs to be carefully worded, and well sourced, something like "two generations" is simply to vague, especially without a source to back it up. I would suggest that before this is edited again, the users agree on this talk page about what info should be added, with sources to back this up. John Hayestalk 14:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disruptive behaviour

When a 'content dispute' arises, users are required to politely talk about it - not keep making the same edit over reasonable objection. smb 19:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reaction to Hillsborough Disaster

{{editprotected}} EDITOR: Please consider adding, under the section 'An Inspirational Sports Anthem', after the sentence regarding the song and the Valley Parade Fire, the following text: On 19th April 1989, a few days after the Hillsborough Disaster resulted in the deaths of 96 fans of Liverpool Football Club, a European Cup semi final between AC Milan and Real Madrid was played. The referee blew his whistle 6 minutes into the game to stop play (the game at Hillsborough stadium had been stopped at 3:06) and hold a minute's silence. About 20 seconds into the silence the Milan fans began to sing "You'll Never Walk Alone" as a tribute to those who died. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZrVfMRyoE0 **Thank you for your consideration of this edit.Jmg38 (talk) 22:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the request per se, but some sort of consensus should probably be reached first. Would any of the other editors like to chime in on that proposal? — Coren (talk) 04:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:S283932.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)