Talk:Yosef Sholom Eliashiv

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Contents

[edit] Age

Rabbi Eliashiv may be old, but he's got his senses. I don't think it is reasonable to blame his "entourage" for bending or reinterpreting responses. As for the Slifkin case, he is one of the signatories after incitement by an unnamed Bnei Berak Rabbi. He has signed many more proclamations in a similar fashion, and (as Slifkin's web page testifies) he stands behind his condemnation. Every rabbi may invoke Daat Torah as reason for his opinion. Whether this is accepted is an entirely different matter and need not be discussed specifically in his case. JFW | T@lk 11:35, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I would like references for:

  • The hetter to the IDF
  • The protests + damage to his property
  • His endorsement of GWB
  • His positions vis a vis disengagement
  • His cancer comment (the Jerusalem Post URL is broken, and bloggers do not update their links).

Please be aware that WP:CITE is the new black, and I am known for removing material that has not been verified. JFW | T@lk 11:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

    • Hi JFW. Here are the references.
  • Property damage: Apparently originally reported in the Jerusalem Report. It is cited in the an article The Politics of Israeli Archaeology: Between 'Nationalism' and 'Science' in the Age of the Second Republic, by Rachel S. Hallote and Alexander H. Joffe from Israel Studies 7:3 (2002), which I have access to via my university's access. The article says this:
Also in 1998, an interesting dispute arose within the ultra-Orthodox community when Rabbi Shalom Eliashiv of the Jerusalem Rabbinical Council ruled that a Roman burial ground on the course of a planned road to the new suburb of Pisgat Ze'ev could be moved, a decision which was met by denunciations and stoning of the elderly rabbi's car.
The original site that reported it can no longer be seen but the cache is still available here: http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:USpqLYp8m74J:www.live.at/gsnewsme/gsnbase/980710/16090.html+eliashiv+road+stoning&hl=en&client=firefox-a
Please note that it is an article by the Associated Press, which I assume is a reliable source. That said, I don't know the policy regarding references for facts that can't be easily fact-checked. It only says he made a "ruling", not whether it was a hetter, and not if it was to the IDF per se. Those things should be clarified.
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:cLxZvvO90NEJ:www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm%3Ffuseaction%3Darticle%26articleID%3D11415+elyashiv+bush&hl=en&client=firefox-a
The same source also gives this link. http://www.nrg.co.il/online/11/ART/764/618.html As I can't read Hebrew I have no idea if it confirms (or adds context) to the claim. Perhaps someone else could take a look. The controversy is also addressed on this Orthodox listerv: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n066.shtml
It is also significant that per the original agreement Eliashiv had with Sharon, all 6 UTJ MKs were to join, and the fact that the Agudat ones refused seems to be what split the party back into its two original groups. The Ger rebbe is now trying to appease Eliashiv, and this should probably be added, either to this page or to the page on Degel Ha Torah, UTJ, or Agudat Israel: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1132475665176&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Eliashiv's support for referendum here: http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/5221.htm It would be interesting to have someone look futher and try and determine his exact position regarding the disengagement itself.
Hope this is helpful. Even if you decide that some of these references aren't good enough, I hope it will convince you that I'm not just making stuff up. Please also feel free to give me some tips as to what sort of references are acceptable. ShalomSlomo 12:31, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't question the facts, and I was certainly not accusing you of making things up. I just requested sources. As you may have noticed, Wikipedia has had somewhat of a scare about unfounded allegations, and only scrupulous sourcing will protect us against criticism. JFW | T@lk 16:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Could you turn these URLs into references? See here for some tips. JFW | T@lk 16:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

"He was supportive of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon during the Gaza disengagement of 2005, even though he had repeatedly stated his support for a public referendum." This seems a bit misleading as the Rav did not support the disengagement at all--until he was sure that the vote wouldn;t make a difference

I rephrased the section to make the distinction clearer. ShalomShlomo 16:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] youth/family

Would it be possible to expand on place of birth, parents, and youth. The article assumes that he was born the great rabbi he is today, with no information on how he got there, which schools he studied in, significant events in his life, parents occupation, siblings, wife, other children, etc... --Shuki 14:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help write some of that if someone could point me in the direction of a source, preferably online. I just don't have time to do massive amounts of Googling at the moment. ShalomShlomo 04:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I finally confirmed his mother's name two different sources. I wasn't sure the first time I heard this name since it means that the Rav's mom was born to a Chassidish Chabad family, which is quite interesting. Anyone know his father's name?

[edit] Place of birth

I am moving [[Category:Belarusian Jews|Eliashiv, Yosef Shalom]] here. I was under the impression that Rav Eliashiv was born in Jerusalem, can anyone confirm this? Thanks. IZAK

[edit] Bans?

I am not inclined to keep this segment in this bio. More significantly, however, I think these are written solely from the perspective of one side of the controversy--which violates standard Wikipedia NPOV rules. DavidCharlesII 21:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

If you feel this is the case, then why not help make it NPOV, instead of rejecting it out of hand? ShalomShlomo 01:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

David, you cannot state things as if they were facts ("Defenders of the bans and Rabbi Eliashiv's decision have found that opponents of the bans of hold deeply jaded views") without backing them up. The 'citation needed' notation is appropriate.ShalomShlomo 19:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with David. We all know what Rabbi Slifkin's supporters are about.

How nice for the two of you, Anon. Let the rest of us know when you're done hugging and we can get back to actually backing up statements with facts and information.ShalomShlomo 01:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Do we have to back up facts like the sky is blue with sources?

Interesting you brought that up, David- if you take a look at sky: During daylight the sky has the appearance of a deep blue surface, but this is the result of the air scattering sunlight. Thanks for proving my point- sources are important, if only so you can back up what's being asserted, and challenge it, if needed. Turning back to the actual page- who "has found" this? Give some examples of people saying this in print or speeches. If this is on the record, sourcing it shouldn't be that hard- unless it's just you trying to editorialize. This isn't unreasonable- you made an assertion, so back it up so we can move on. Incidentally, David, if you've got time for impressive wit like this, why aren't you helping resolve the issues you raised on the Elazar Shach page almost two months ago?ShalomShlomo 19:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not David. I do not even know who he is. He can be one of many hundreds of people working for this company, though. In response to your unwarranted sarcasm, you have too much time on your hands to be so prissy about the point I was making. Notwithstanding your obvious sincerity, you fail to notice the gut reaction of the MO world and how blatantly is reveals what I would delicately call its bias toward Torah practice.

My apologies for the confusion. Your point is noted, but I feel that my point still stands- just because you think something is obvious does not make it so- and if it is so obvious, as I said, it should be easy enough to find a source for it. I am all in favor of putting in material that talks about how the Slifkin/Eliashiv interchanges have been received in both the haredi and MO communities- but I would prefer to substantiate them with some sources instead of just making assertions, particularly with such sharply-worded phrasing as the "opponents hold deeply jaded views". That's a very specific charge; I don't see why asking who's saying these things is such an unreasonable request.
This isn't a Jewish issue, it's a sourcing issue. I would have similar objections to something like, "Democrats have found that Republicans are racists"- that's a claim, not a fact, and therefore it is necessary to attribute it to a source, not only so it can be checked, but also evaluated by readers.
ShalomShalomShlomo 09:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)