Talk:Yoruba religion
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[edit] Meaning of orisha
Just one thing- I was taught that "orisha" doesn't exaclty correspond to "god" in English, since there is a whole hierarchy of Orsishas in many shades of diminishment to humans- for example, Olorun is the most like the God (with a captial "G"), the ruler over all, and the most abstract (in that sometimes he is androgynous, like the Christian god technically is.) There are also orishas that are more like anamistic gods and have control over specific elements in nature, and finally there are orishas that are more like heros (like Odysseus or Achilles in Greek mythology).
I think it would be good if someone who knew more about this than me could make this point in the article (if I'm right.) --DGB
Why do people keep making the error of assuming Vodun must necessarily be Yorùbá-derived? Anyone with a cursory knowledge of the Yorùbá language would recognize the absurdity of this claim; for one thing, the v-sound is absent from the language. As a factual matter, Vodun is actually of Éwé origin, and is still known and practiced under the name Vodun in Togo, the country of its birth. --User:Abiola Lapite (Talk) â 12:58, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I am trying to clean up the Candomblé pages, the best I can. (I know very little of the subject but as a Brazilian I can at least read the relevant webpages in Portuguese). From what I read, it seems that Candomblé has three major "sects" created by slaves from different regions of Africa: roughly, Yoruba, Ewe-Fon, and Bantu(?). Each sect has its own liturgical language, and their spirit-gods are called Orishas, Voduns, and Inkices, respectively. However, it seems that, apart from names, the three sects have roughly similar beliefs, and there is a rough correspondence between the pantheons.
So the mistake that Abiola is pointing out probably was caused by this connection. Namely, Haiti's Vodun is probably derived from the Ewe religion, which the author of the page considered that it was "the same as" Yoruba religion, at some level. Is that view valid? What is the relationship between the Ewe and Yoruba religions? Jorge Stolfi 02:33, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Oduduwa female?
Oduduwa was not the daughter of Olodumare. He was the son sent down to create the earth —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.67.6.3 (talk • contribs)
- You're quite right. I have pulled the following paragraph out of the article, pending verification:
- The primordial, first-existing, Orishas are called Obatala and Odùduwà, brother and sister respectively, and their father Olorun. Obatala created humanity and Olorun gave life to the hollow shells Obatala had made. Obatala and Odùduwà later had a son, Aganyu, and a daughter, Yemaja, who was a mother goddess. Her son, Ogun, raped her twice; the second time, her body exploded and fifteen Orishas came out. They included Oshun, Olukun, Shakpana, Shango.
- I agree with you that Oduduwa is most commonly thought of as male. The tradition you are referring to has it that Oduduwa is the son of Oludumare, the supreme god of the Yoruba, who let him down from heaven on a chain to create earth where there was previously only water; the spot where he first landed was Ile Ife (this version is found for example in Law, 'Traditional History', in Biobaku (ed.) Sources of Yoruba History, p32). Additionally, Johnson's collection of oral traditions, the best known and the most widely spread one, records Oduduwa as a son of Lamurudu (S. Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, p. 2f.). I have yet to come across a tradition which records Oduduwa as female; until then, I think it's best to leave these unsubstantiated statements out of the article.
- On a related note, I suspect that this article thoroughly confuses proper Yoruba mythology (as it exists in Yorubaland, Nigeria) and the various derivates of this in the diaspora; I do not expect them to be identical so it would well be that some of the internal inconsistencies of this article are caused by this confusion. I'll add {{tl}cleanup}} or a similar tag and I hope someone will get to improving the article. I'm really more into the language, so I don't think I'll do it. — mark ✎ 18:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV?
The Iya Nla section needs to be rewritten for NPOV (and some grammar). It currently reads more like a recruiting pamphlet than an encyclopedia. Here is the current version:
"Ìyá Nlá wise discipline teach us that if we transcends the consciousness of the physical form and allow ourselves to flow and be nurtures into the essence of Awon Iya Wa (Our Mothers) maternal caring we be able to access both form, the Forces in Nature and the wisdom of our first ancestors. If we learn how to develop an ongoing relationship within the harmony of creation to develop the sensitivity of these forces that, they assume the characteristic of a particular Imale or Irunmole or first African ancestors that they were elevated to the Òrìsà status.
Iyá Nlá aspects, roads, paths, manifestations, roles, attributes, synonymous, concepts, or praise names are directly related to her ability and authority to heal strike or destroy at will. Ìyá Nlá the self-existent energy who gives life and harmony on earth, endowed by inherit attribute to her daughters the infinite and eternal gifts of working with Õrõ (Egungun), Eleiye (the force that gives the power and mystical abilities) in order to intensify cause, effect and changes. With these gifts an Ìyá Àjé is able to meld the terrestrial and astral power to cure, curse or to cause retributive justice on anyone who disrespects woman and motherhood. Ìyá Nlá is the sacred womb who gives life; she is the doorway to existence and the origin of the biological tools, manifested in every woman
From "The Source Iya Nla Primordial Yoruba Mother" Iyalaja Ileana Alcamo ISBN 1-890157-41-4" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.95.128.33 (talk) 18:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
If this is the POV of notable practitioners of the Yoruba religion and is reliably sourced as such, it belongs, as long as it is characterized as such. The Yoruba are entitled to explain their own religion in their own words. Best --Shirahadasha 08:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree that it is important to represent a religions beliefs fairly, and if by 'reliably sourced', you mean writing something like "followers of the Yoruba religion believe" before belief-based statements I agree--of course statements like the Iyá Nlá paragraph is 'reliably sourced' in the sense that it can proved it came from one of their religious texts. Based on WP rules, I think it is best to summarize their beliefs as objectively as possible and to use quotes from primary sources in small doses and with proper context. In my opinion the language in this section is flowery, jargon laden and confusing. Antonrojo 14:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
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- Agree summarization can be useful, as long as the POV is fairly presented. I'm not familiar with Yoruba religious sources so I'm not expressing an opinion on whether this is a reliable representation of the Yoruba POV or not. Just pointing out that "inside" POVs deserve representation, in non-Western as well as Western religions, just as much as "outside" perspectives. --Shirahadasha 04:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Article title
I believe, consistent with articles on Western religions and Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy, that this article should be titled Yoruba religion rather than Yoruba mythology. --Shirahadasha 08:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Have renamed the article for these reasons. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Use of undefined terms
The article includes the phrase "Eshu be propiated". A Google search for "define:propiate" doesn't return anything useful, nor do m-w.com or dictionary.com include definitions for propiate or propiated. Can someone either replace the term with a well defined term, rewrite the sentence, or link to a definition of the term? Please also remove this comment after that's done :-) BobbyDeanMartin (talk) 16:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
