Talk:Yo-yo

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Contents

[edit] Disambiguation

h is not at all related to the yo-yo skill toy), I believe there should be a disambiguation page. Thoughts? I'm afraid I don't know how to put on together if it is given the go ahead either, but I'm sure someone can help :-) --Wilfred 20:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh well. I'll try to be bold and just get on with it. --*Wilfred* (talk) 10:03, - Wilfred

[edit] Chinese ?

Does anyone know if the word "yoyo" comes from the repetition of the Chinese word of approximately the same sound meaning "again and again"? Ursamajor13 02:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

afraid dante is correct.. look at this reference..

http://www.spintastics.com/HistoryOfYoYo.asp

64.131.205.239 13:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Dante is not correct, read your source again. They're talking about rocks, not yo-yos. --Tommy Gun 07:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)




i like chocolate milk and vanilla pudding in cereal and cookie crisp. COOOOOOOOKIEEEEEEE CRISPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.93.67.172 (talk) 15:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Banning of yo-yos

Hasn't Yo-yos been banned in several places including the UK and some Australian states?

PMelvilleAustin 04:45 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Where did you hear that? Don't think it's ever been banned in the UK, as I've owned a number of Yo-yos myself, although it's been at least 5 years since I last had one.

Smoothy 13:42 16 March 2005 (UTC)

You're thinking of a different kind of toy which is sometimes called a "yo-yo". Those are rubbery toys with weights on the end that stretch so you can bounce it up and down. The controversy on those was due to being able to stretch the finger loop really wide and resulted in strangulation danger. Not sure where/if they were banned, but it wasn't the normal yo-yos with strings that were effected.

-- Shawn Fumo

A few UK schools banned them because of choking hazards of using the string. Not enough to be noteworth though IMHO. - Wilfred

Guns were banned in the UK, but not yo-yos. Because seriously, if they criminalize yo-yos, then only criminals will yo.


They were banned in my school - Clanfield Middle School, Hampshire - due to people swinging them around their heads and using them as slings. A window was eventually smashed, and the school enforced a complete ban. They banned conkers for the same reason. --MeteoriK 15:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History links

The origins of the yo-yo have been researched quite well. You can read related articles by real authorities on the subject here:

http://www.ayya.org

and Here:

http://www.yo-yos.net

Please note that both of these sites indicate quite clearly that the yo-yo was never a weapon. What is it going to take to stop the perpetuation of this "weapon" story??


Jim

COuld we talk about the yoyo before it arrived in the states? is its introduction to the USa particularly significant? -- Tarquin 21:57, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The introduction to the USA by Flores is actually pretty significant because of how "sleeping" yo-yos happened at the same time (though there were some yo-yos in the US prior to that). I think it is a little unclear on whether any yo-yos could sleep in the phillipines, but if they could, I don't know of any documentation for it. All the main accounts prior to the US introduction have yo-yos whose string is firmly attached to the axle. Still, it'd be nice to have as much information on the use of yo-yos prior to that point as possible.

In addition to the two links that Jim mentioned, this is good as well, as it gives a bit more depth to what happened with Pedro Flores. It seems as though Flores actually had a very substatial thing going before Duncan got involved. I'd trust Lucky's accounts the most due to his standing as a yo-yo historian and collector: http://www.nationalyoyo.org/museum/pedroflores.htm

The one from Val Krantz has a good reputation as well...

---Shawn Fumo


What about the first bearing yoyo (Tom Kuhn's design I believe) and the first transaxle. They both caused a stir when they were invented. - Wilfred

[edit] Physics of yo-yos

This article really needs more info on the physics of how yo-yos work. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 23:05, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] looped slip-string

I have uncovered contradictory information concerning the development of the looped slip-string. Was it developed in the phillipines or invented by duncan? myabe both, was duncan merely the first american to apply for a patent on it? popefauve 01:07, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Most of the more reliable accounts I've seen say that Pedro Flores was the one with a looped slip-string. I think it is less clear whether Flores came up with the looped string first or if that was done by someone else in the Phillipines. Most of the pages I've seen which claim Duncan invented the sleeping yo-yo seem to be derived from Duncan's history page, which is perhaps a bit biased. --Shawn Fumo

Shawn, I have some pre-Duncan Flores yo-yos with the original string. They were looped to sleep. This does not show that Flores invented the sleeping yo-yo, but it does show that Duncan did not. I understand that there is some controversy in the Philippines about who invented this, and they have another hear, not Pedro Flores who they say did this. We need to look more into this. -GReg Ghengiscohen 15:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

uh-oh... does that count as 'original research'? :) popefauvexxiii 20:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions...

The text refers to yo-yos 'in the future', but makes no real comments, then references pictures that don't appear to be there. Any clues? Trollderella 19:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

What on earth is a 'linear' walk the dog? -Wilfred

Sounds like a Walk the Dog that does a crab-walk. RandomEcho 15:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know whether the word YoYo comes from the Chinese words of the same sound meaning "again and again"? Ursamajor13 02:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relocation necessary

The line:

"In the old 60s Hanna-Barbara cartoon Yogi Bear, there was a (somewhat offensive stereotype) bear named "Yo-yo", whose trademark was delivering a Karate Chop to dispatch those who would get between him and a pic-i-nic basket."

doesn't belong on the yoyo toy page. Where should it go? - Wilfred

maybe Yo-Yo (Hanna-Barbera character)? popefauvexxiii 06:39, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yoyo in anime

There is a yoyo-inspired anime titled "Chosoku Spinner". Here's a link to the "Chosoku Spinner" page at Anime News Network: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=1276. Doberdog 03:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Doberdog

I'll add a "culture" section to enable future additions like this brain 09:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the yoyo as a weapon and history

On the yoyo as a weapon, Philipino marty-hero Jose Rizal has demonstrated its capabilities. He did this during his travel to Liverpool, England in the late 1880s. His accounts are recorded in the work Epistolario Rizalino, vol. 2 p. 25. On the origin of the word yoyo, I belive it was of Visayan origin (a Philippine language).

be bold: remember you can add this yourself! brain 09:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course, the 1880s occurred somewhat after the first documentation of the toy in ancient Greece... P.F. Bruns (talk) 08:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The unsigned comment which heads this session dates back to sometime prior to 13:51, November 15, 2006 — I haven't looked back prior to that. I don't have the time or resources to check out Epistolario Rizalino myself, besides which it would probably be in Spanish or Tagalog and I understand neither. Regarding "visayan" being a Philippine language, the Visayan languages article lists 21 languages in 5 language groups as being Visayan. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 08:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Just revisiting this to note the following info, which I got here: "... Defendants introduced the testimony of Dr. Henry Lee Smith, Jr., since 1956 Chairman of the Department of Anthropology and Linguistics and Professor of Linguistic English, State University of New York at Buffalo, who qualified as an expert linguist and etymologist, particularly in the Polynesian languages. No question was raised as to the qualifications or integrity of this witness. He testified that at the request of counsel for defendants, he made a special study of the word 'yo-yo,' and that in connection with that study he consulted, in addition to the documents introduced by plaintiff, major unabridged encyclopedias, current unabridged dictionaries, various bibliographical references, and with colleagues and children. As a result of his study, he expressed the definite opinion that the word 'yo-yo' is a Malayo-Polynesian word of Philippine origin; that the toy itself is of Oriental origin, and that the word 'yo-yo' was tied together with the toy in the Philippines and was introduced into the American language from that country. His testimony was buttressed by numerous documentary references, one of which was an article appearing in The Sunday Tribune Magazine of March 5, 1933, entitled, 'Is Yo-Yo from the Philippines,' which quotes the assistant director of the Philippine National Library as saying that the word 'yo-yo' is descriptive of the movement and sound of the toy and hence the toy is characteristically so called in Filipino languages. Further, the article states that 'Yo-Yo' is a game known throughout the entire archipelago, where it is consistently used in a generic sense." -- Boracay Bill (talk) 02:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Second oldest toy?

"Archaeologically, it is the second oldest toy known (after dolls)". Given the significance of this assertion, it needs a citation. 200.55.112.47 18:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC) Nahuel

I've heard this for years, but Nobody has ever shown me evidence of this. The boomerang (as a toy) goes back to at least 1500BC (an ivory one was found in an Egyptian tomb, and yes, they did have boomerangs in ancient egypt, it was not just the Australians who had them) What about the ball? There are images of balls being played with from about 1550BC, also in an Egyptian tomb. Wouldn't logic tell us that the odds are better that a ball, or a knocker, or something that is simpler was a toy that was invented first?

Also weirdly, the 2nd oldest toy reference I have never seen in any dated reference from before about 1987. Anyone have better evidence of this? -GReg Ghengiscohen 15:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

i will research the claim more thoroughly and try to uncover a definitive academic answer. regarding balls and boomerangs: i imagine it would be difficult to pin down an original application for boomerangs archaeologically, it may have been developed specifically for its utility as a weapon. surrounding evidence would be important... was the boomerang found in the tomb of a child? have contemorary artistic representations of boomerangs used purely for sport/leisure been found? as for balls, the first 'balls' were undoubtedly rocks and chunks of wood and the like, the point at which they transitioned from incidental junk to artifice (which i assume to be requisite of anything considered a toy) would be impossible to even approximate... additionally, a simple round formation of durable material is just as likely be a tool of some sort, so you couldnt even claim an artifact to be the 'earliest known' toy ball. —popefauvexxiii 22:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I was just thumbing through Panati's Extraordinary Origins of Everyday Things, and happened upon the section for toys. It claims that Yo-yos did in fact exist in china as much as 3,000 years ago--although the first two paragraphs of the section parrot the "YoYo as filipino weapon" fiction, so im not sure how dependable this book is as a source.this website

[edit] An interesting collection of images

I stumbled across this page today, and thought it prudent to post the URL here since these images could really add a lot to the article if anybody wanted to take the time to make digital derivs and integrate them... might be a while before i have the time:

http://www.theyoyomuseum.com/museum_view.php?action=profiles&subaction=hybrid

popefauvexxiii 18:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antonacio Flor

The man's last name is Flor he was also in the 1976 Guiness book of world series for tricks. His name was Antonacio 'Tony' Flor. He did live in CA for a long time. It was my grandfather, I would know. You can erase what I wrote but please get your information right. Not Pedro Flores, but Antonacio Flor.

Above comments originally posted in main article by 1Joemoma. Moved here so they can be discussed, sourced and consensus reached. --Tkynerd 00:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
renamed talk section for clarity. This text was originally in "The yo-yo in modern times" brain 10:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yo-yo talk (slang)

I added the "incoherent" tag to this section because it's, well, not understandable as it is currently written. I don't know whether there really is something called "yo-yo talk" or whether this is just nonsense, so I decided not to delete it in the hope that it might be a real phenomenon and someone else can write something sensible in the section. Otherwise, feel free to delete. --Tkynerd 13:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rubber yo-yo

I put the cleanup taggy-thing in the rubber yo-yo section. It deviates considerably from the rest of the article in overall quality. Which is to say it declines. I don't have a login here! Rawr! 24.5.168.228 20:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone inclined to clean it up should reference pp. 11-12 of the 2004 PIRG toy safety review found here. They call for a US ban on the toy, but I don't know what came of it. --24.215.188.177 07:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1A

I fixed the 1A line; it said "looping tricks" when it is accually string tricks. Mines bigger 00:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Ancient Origins" clean-up

My gods...reading the entry under "Ancient Origins" was positively painful, as the grammar and content was so poor it seemed as though it had been written by a five year old child!! I can't believe such rubbish is permitted to be exhibited on the main page. I suggest that someone rewrite it at once!! --Promus Kaa 07:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not just the ancient origins. the entire article is in need of cleanup. 203.185.215.190 05:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll go with that brain 09:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I came onto this discussion page solely to make sure someone had made this point. Please, someone cleanup the unintelligible grammar on this whole page! --Mrcolj 22:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll clean up as much as possible right now, but in the future please make your incremental clean-ups to the article rather than simply requesting others do the work for you. Wikipedia is based on a community effort! brain 09:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Law?

I don't see what yo-yos have to do with law. At the top of this talk page there's a WP Law tag which I see no reason for.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

its possible someone added it due to the landmark trademark case involving the term yo-yo. See Donald Duncan. --popefauvexxiii 02:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A weapon or not?

The article says: "There is no conclusive documented evidence that the yo-yo is derived from, nor even existed in any form intended for use as a weapon." And it also says: "Yo-yos were originally used as weapons by the indiginous inhabitants of the Philippine archipelago."

Which is it? 83.245.172.78 05:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's safe to put our foot down and say that yoyos were originally used as weapons by philippines. Jackson Smith 21:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


I'm not sure exactly how these were used as weapons, but I'm certainly aware of a way of making a yoyo a pretty lethal if inaccurate projectile. If you put enough spin on it, lift it up into the air, then do a half-loop by dropping your arm under the yoyo and thrusting it forwards in a hard underarm motion, the yoyo will catch the string with such grip and accelleration that you can then let go of the string (otherwise, it will just snap under the force and practically rip your finger off in the process!), and fly forwards along the tangent of the loop for several hundred feet. I once got into a lot of trouble by smashing a yoyo through the ceiling plaster into the attic with this technique. --MeteoriK 14:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I guess I really do need to source this well, because it keeps getting muddled as a result of careless edits. this is how i understand it, and originally wrote it. Yo-yos have never been used as weapons as far as any historian knows. the IDEA of using a yo-yo as a weapon is just that: an obviously intuitive idea... in my research i found an interesting side point that in the phillipines, the same place where the modern yo-yo evolved, the natives used a method of hunting which involved throwing rocks from trees to kill prey. they would attach ropes to the rocks for retrieval, but there was no yo-yo effect per se--some people might consider a rock with a rope attached a kind of "caveman yo-yo," but thats like calling a club a "caveman sword." maybe they got the idea from yo-yos, maybe the yo-yo was a sophisticated variant on this idea, or maybe they were two totally separate but similar things that happened to develop in the same area and the confusion between the two created the legend, but Yo-yos have never been used as a weapon any time in recorded history. --popefauvexxiii 09:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the analysis - I should probably point out I never said that my random-direction flying lethal yoyo-trick was likely to be the way that a yoyo would ever have been used as a weapon. I certainly wouldn't use it in a fight for fear of hitting an innocent bystander and having the shit kicked out of me by both my assailant and a friend of the person who just got hit in the head by an indirectible yoyo projectile. I never got that yoyo that smashed someone's ceiling back. Then again, it's probably highly trivial, but it may be relevant to the article for me to describe how a yoyo can be an utterly useless and indescriminate weapon, even for humour's sake. I can't do justice to explain how hard you can throw these things.
Uhh... one year later Pepsi releases a Mountain Dew commercial that yo-yos were originally used as weapons. What are the odds? Anyway, there are TONS of sources that say yo-yos were used as weapons in the Phillipines. There are also sources saying that the yo-yo is the world's second oldest known toy (doll being the first). Just look up yo-yo weapon. I believe that this should be added.--132.198.252.6 (talk) 04:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Add the info in, along with a citation of a reliable supporting source. A Pepsi mountain dew commercial would not meet the supporting source reliability criteria, but if there is a reliable supporting source among those tons of sources, cite it. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 10:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I'm new here. I found sources stating the idea of yo-yos as weapons in the Phillipines is false. I cited the sources. My contribution was removed, and I restored it. Ok? (Les Descuzette (talk) 09:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Why is an important chunk missing?

I'm not a pro at this stuff so i'd like to make a request. There is no page for the Duncan yoyo company. There is a page for the founder and toy that he produced, but no page about the company. Can someone please create a Duncan Yoyo page about the company? I'll add some stuff if someone can get it started. Please and Thank you, Jackson Smith 21:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Her you go: Duncan Toys Company. brain 06:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Now if everyone is reading this, it would be nice if you could help out too :) Jackson Smith

[edit] Ancient Origins

[edit] Ancient origins

Since this section is a complete and total mess, I've opted to remove it entirely, and slowly re-add material from it as credible sources reveal themselves. Please do not add material without citations. Thanks! brain 20:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The toy has spread throughout Asia (Chinese yo-yo) and Europe via trade routes, and is known to have enjoyed periods of popularity in Scotland, England, India, and even Egypt. The emigrette gained particular notoriety in the western world during the French revolution; it was seen as a welcome source of relief from stress. There are museums with yo-yos from 400-500 bc. These are from Greece. They may also appear in ancient Egyptian drawings.[1] The yo-yos may have been used as toys, as well as given as offerings for their rights of passage into adulthood. There are yo-yos from this era made from metal, wood, and even clay. Yo-yos would develop for a time in the South China Sea near their hypnotical point of origin before being imported across the Pacific and gaining popularity commercially in the New World to become an international phenomenon. Yo-yos were originally used as weapons by the indigenous inhabitants of the Philippine archipelago.[2] Originally constructed from wild boar sinew and papaya tree wood the outer edge of these ancient yo-yos were carved into teeth, which ensured maximum damage, but made the return catch particularly hazardous. When Captain Cook arrived in the Philippines in the 1500s he is said to have remarked, "Nowhere have I seen a people so devoted to the mastery of a weapon so useless."[citation needed] There is no conclusive documented evidence that the yo-yo is derived from, nor even existed in any form intended for use as a weapon. Generating enough force to create a fatal blow with a yo-yo would also be difficult because as the toy is reaching the end of the string it is slowing down. This rumour was possibly started by Tom Ives, Duncan's PR man in the 1930s. There is speculation that he created the weapon myth during the 1930s fad for the publicity. Another origin may have been stories of hunters in the Philippines in the 16th century using sharp rocks with strings attached to kill prey from trees. The development of the modern yo-yo began in the Philippines at around this time, which is probably the source of the confusion.

I'll sort it out when i get the chance. part of this is stuff that I wrote before the source inquisition, and the sources used to be in the external links, but now, who knows. as for the rest, if you're new to this article, be warned: its a prepubescent content magnet. the sheer volume of nonsense that it attracts will likely overwhelm you to the point of surrender. I thought about protection for this article, but part of its charm is that it's the first introduction that a lot of school-aged kids have to concept of open content. it'll really take an organized and concerted effort to maintain it. are you up for it? --popefauvexxiii 08:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


Hello right i disagree with the plastic wood thing i have tried many plastic yo yos and they were awful.Then i got a free wooden one and it works a treat.Aaaaaaaaand my da is a yo yo king and he only ever had a wooden one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.31.188 (talk) 18:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Explaining various changes

I've edited this section today as follows:

  1. I've changed "whirligig" (incorrect) to "bandalore" (correct) and recast the inline link to the patent as a citation of a supporting source.
  2. I've added a supporting cite for the Greek terra-cotta yo-yos c.500 bce which provides additional info and photos.
  3. I've changed "usually credited" to "often credited". An alternative might be to qualify "usually" with "in the U.S."
  4. I've changed Filipino language to Tagalog language, since the Filipino language dates back probably only to sometime subsequent to 1973 (the best date is probably 1986, but arguments could be made for dating it earlier).
  5. I've tagged mention of the allegedly Tagalog word tayoyo as {{dubious}} as my 1583-page Tagalog-English dictionary don't mention the term and my 1211-page English-Tagalog dictionary doesn't list it among its five translations of the term spin (these are the Fr. Leo English dictionaries), and my Tagalog-fluent wife does not know the term. My guess is that Joe Radovan, the Filipino founder of Royal Tops, may have coined the word himself in order to argue in the trademark suit that the term yo-yo derived from a generic Tagalog word. (this is what led me to this page, the other changes are incidental)
  6. I've tagged the assertion that term tayoyo comes from a dictionary of Tagalog words printed in 1860 as {{cn}} (changed from "Filipino words", since such a dictionary would predate the creation of the Filipino language by more than a hundred years).
  7. I've added a supporting cite for the Pedro Flores info.
  8. I've moved the info about the trademark suit out of the 1940s "Duncan era" section and into the "1960s resurgence" section.
  9. I've corrected the info about the suit (Duncan sued Royal, not the other way around).
  10. I've eliminated the term "Royal yo-yo", as all references which I've found to the suit referred to the Royal Tops Manufacturing Company. I've cited a source which provides some info about Royal Tops and the suit.
  11. Regarding the ruling on the suit, I've changed "Supreme Court" to New York Supreme Court and cited that 6th Circuit ruling.

-- Boracay Bill (talk) 04:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yo-Yo Ball

Could someone add the Yo-Yo Ball? It was released in the 90s as a "beginner's yo-yo", designed to "always come back to you". 76.126.29.36 (talk) 00:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Find me a reference and I'll add it. User:Pedant (talk) 06:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
YouTube Yo Yo Ball Commercial, Govt notice: Deadly Yo Yo Ball banned, The bill to ban the sale of Water yo-yo's in the state of New Jersey was signed into law today, January 3rd, 2008, by Governor Jon Corzine!!, etc. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 08:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minor cleanup

Removed the text added by 24.149.132.35. The "== YO YOS ROCK ..." stuff adds nothing to the article.

I've also added this page to WikiProject Toys Oldiesmann (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1990s fad???

I added the yo-yo to the 1990s fads category and it was taken off. I know they were invented way before the 1990s, but the yo-yo is definitely a pop culture signature of the 1990s. Taking the yo-yo off of the 1990s fads category is like saying Alternative rock or the Skateboarding revival wasn't popular in the 1990s. It should be noted as a 90s fad. (Tigerghost (talk) 04:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC))

Maybe we need a new category for Recurring fads to include things like pogo stick, yoyo, skateboard, hula hoop (or just hooping, whatever it's called now)... Solution to having yoyo removed from 90's fad category: cite references that it was a 90's fad when adding it back to the category. User:Pedant (talk) 06:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First USA Patent

Altered the description to make it more clear that the patent was for an improved bandelore.

The first USA patent is ambiguous if one of the co-signers was Charles Hettrich or Hettrick. The figure page is clearly titled as "Haven & Hettrich". But, the patent letters page clearly shows James L. Haven and Charles Hettrick. Altered to show the ambiguity.

Is there any information that can be cited to show if the device was marketed as a Whirligig?

ElWet (talk) 08:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] No Category?

Until now this article was in no category and had not been for some time I entered it into Category:Physical activity and dexterity toys Carlwev (talk) 16:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

That's an excellent choice! User:Pedant (talk) 06:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)