Talk:Yin and yang

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[edit] 'Yin is often symbolized by water and earth, while yang is symbolized by fire and air'

Can I point out that this is NOT part of the Chinese beliefs. The 4 elements mentioned here are the ancient Greek elements. The ancient Chinese did not have the 4 elements system (In fact they used a system which had 5 elements, and I think earth wasn't even one of them). I really doubt there's any historical accuracy in that statement. It could be possible that connecting the 4 elements with Yin and Yang was a western idea; if this is the case it should be stated in the article.

Also there's no source linked to that fact, it should be (citation needed) anyway.

The "5 elements" in Chinese philosophy does't include air, but it does include earth, in the sense of "soil" -> metal, wood, water, fire, earth. I'm not sure that its meant for Yin and Yang to be directly representing the 5 elements. But yeah, its confusing here. Hope someone actually knowledgeable can clean it up.--tessc (talk) 22:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese Text Box...

That's honestly just offensive, and should probably be edited soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.138.148 (talk) 22:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] edit table?

hi, i cant figure out how to edit the table on the page that shows yin-yang oppositions. i would like to enter an additional such opposition: sugar as yin, salt as yang. any info on how i can do this?

Black color is the absence of light, since black colors are supstances that absorb light, and white colors reflect all light that is cast. And more so, black and white are not colours at all, their definition is 'black=absence of light' and 'white=all wavelenghts'. But a interesting fact is, that if we want to experience total darkness we should have at least a bit of light to emphasize its absence.

[edit] Korean Flag =

This article should discuss the presence of the yin/yang in the flag of Korea. 1) That it is there 2) Why it is there

If anyone is going to write anything on it, the red means heaven and the blue means earth. A lot like the re-representation of the Trigrams. Chrs Dailly Rubbings 15:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

CrankyK

[edit] Related to Hegelian concept of dialetic

Hegel is one of the few Western philosophers to really attempt to digest and articulate this profoundly occidental philosophical paradigm. In particular, the Hegelian notion of Aufhebeng (becoming and going away) is about as close as you get in Western philosophy to really describing the paradox of describing the stable process of constant change from thesis to antithesis.

CrankyK

_______________________________________________________________

It's OK. That's what I've written in the French version on "Interprétations occidentales".

Ce "contraste harmonisé" du Yin-Yang est celui du chaud-froid, haut-bas, lumière-ombre, blanc-noir, femelle-mâle, des complémentarités antagonistes enchevêtrées avec les antagonismes complémentaires entrelacés. En optique physique, c'est le jeu de l'onde et du corpuscule en alternance et altercation réunies par la constante de Louis de Broglie. En chimie, c'est l'acidité et l'alcalinité réunies, séparées et contrastées au pH 7. En phiolosophie, c'est le verbe "Aufheben" de Hegel qui signifie, à la fois, "apparaître", disparaître et "conserver" (dans la composante alémanique Souabe), verbe utilisé par Freud pour décrire l'inconscient.

  • "[...] Change is the result of combinations and separations of the four indestructible elements, like a painter mixing colors, said Empedocles; it is governed by two cosmic principles, Love ( attraction or Aphrodite), the original source of organic unity and creative combination, and Strife (repulsion or Quarrel), the principle of diversity and differienciation. The life cycle of the cosmos thus oscillates in cycles between unity and diversity (Kahn, 1968). (In the Chinese tradition the cosmic principles are Yin and Yang, and the elements are five: earth, fire, water, wood, and metal. Aristotle reserved the fifth and unchanging element, the 'quintessence' or 'ether', whose 'nature' is to move in circles, for the heavenly bodies, which he held to be perfect and imperishable)". Anthony Wilden, "The Rules are no Game. The Strategy of Communication", p. 153, Routledge & Kegan Paul, 432 pages, London and New York, 1986.

Takima 21:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text moved from Yin-yang

Often used contemprarily as a symbol of peace or love, the Ying Yang is a sign of Eastern origin, specifically of Chinese Taoism philosophy and representing interpenetration and interdependence of all universal things. One half of the symbol being 'Ying' and the other 'Yang', the two entities embody and complement eachother.
One might derive personal meanings from the Ying Yang such as the relationship between man and woman or that of the individual and society.

The text above was written at Yin-yang. I moved it here. I ask the author or anyone else to merge it with the main article at Yin yang. Optim 16:08, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I don't think Yin-yang should redirect here. The yin-yang is a symbol more than it is a concept, and as such I think it shold redirect to Taijitsu instead of here. Anyone else have an opinion?Shaggorama 05:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text moved from Traditional Chinese medicine

The text following is removed from the traditional Chinese medicine page as an effort to thin that page down. Please feel free to merge it into the main yin yang article. heidimo 15:56, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Why remove this? Yin and yang is central to the understanding of TCM. In fact, it can be said to be the basis of TCM; without it, it can't be well understood. Mandel 23:25, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yin Yang

The most fundamental concept in TCM is the philosophical construct of Yin Yang, complementary qualities seen in all natural phenomena. Yin and yang are not forces, energies, or material substances; neither are they irrational mystical concepts (though they do not work well with Aristotelian logic). Yin Yang is a way of thinking about phenomena, and a way to describe how things function and interact with each other in the Universe.

The Chinese characters for Yin and yang are derived from pictographs for, respectively, the shady and sunny sides of a hill. This relationship is an example of several elements of the Yin Yang dynamic; there can be no shady side without the sunny side, and one transforms into the other as the day progresses. On the sunny side there are shady spots (under a tree, for example), while on the shady side there are bright spots (in a clearing). These exemplify yin within yang and yang within yin, respectively. By extension, the artificiality of discriminations between yin and yang is posited, informing the traditional Chinese medical practitioner that in some cases yin and yang are plastic metaphors based on relative points of view rather than an absolute identity, a non-dualistic dynamic represented by the Taoist and Neo-Confucian icon known as the Taijitu.

Yin is used to describe phenomena which are dark, cool, at rest, down, inward, female, still, and/or decreasing. Yang corresponds to bright, warm, active, up, outward, male, and/or increasing. Within the human body, certain elements are considered more yin and some more yang: the front is considered more yin, the back more yang; the upper part yang, the lower part yin; the interior yin, and the exterior yang.

Simplisticly speaking, fever, irritability, and redness from blood rushing to the skin are signs of too much yang, or not enough yin to balance the yang. Coldness, lethargy, and paleness are signs of excess yin or deficient yang. Medicines and treatments are classified as to their ability to strengthen or disperse yin and yang. Because of the continuous movement of change and the interactions between yin and yang, actual situations are usually far more complex than this example.

In the West, Yin Yang are sometimes associated with sexual terms, which leads to some major misconceptions about Chinese medicine. One such misconception is that a Chinese herbal medicine such as rhinoceros horn is used primarily as an aphrodisiac. This is not true, as rhinoceros horn is intended mainly as a fever reducer, and has a number of substitutes.

[edit] Qinway Qigong link

I've removed a link that seems to be plain old advertising: I saw a bit of content on the linked site that seemed generally informational (though I can't speak to its real relevance to this page or to the subject of qigong), but it all seemed to be leading you toward signing up for some workshops and/or buying some products. (Any site whose front page has "before" and "after" pictures . . .)

From what I've seen of Wikipedia and read on the help pages, I get the pretty clear impression that this is not the sort of thing that should be here. Apologies if I'm dead wrong.Iralith 22:15, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Question

I was under the impression that the Yin-Yang concpet could not be used for Good and Evil, yet in this article I found refernce to that. Can anyone explain? I thought the dualty of Good and Evil was used only in Manichæism. Here is a link to an article that talks about this: [1]

Thanks for pointing this out. I believe that the definition of yin and yang in the article is consistant with what you are suggesting. There was one example that used good and evil which seemed inconsistent with the rest of the article, so I removed it. I think that the following statement from the article is clear on this point:
Yin and Yang are equally important, unlike the typical dualism of good and evil. Sunray 09:46, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)

Can the sun and the moon be use as symbols of yin-yang and if so are this related to yin-yang?

It helps to consider a condition of two transitions, one a quick transition taking only a few days, and another transition taking several years. If the quick transition is part of the dynamic of the slow transition, it plays one role at the beginning of the slow transition, and a somewhat different, almost opposite role at the end of the slow transition. As well as the relatively quick transition of sunlight and shade, transitions can span centuries or more. Discoveries of the geological record and the exceedingly slow galactic rotation make it clear that evolutionary transitions often span millions of years. Most significant transitions have both light and darkness at the outset, and at the completion. 67.150.173.171 (talk) 07:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 666999 =YinYang

"5. Yin and yang can transform into one another.

At a particular stage, yin can transform into yang and vice versa. For example, night changes into day; warmth cools; life changes to death"

see also 999 / 666 Number of the Beast (numerology)

[edit] Yin Yang or Yin and Yang?

Lowellian moved the article of Yin yang to Ying and yang. Does this reflect common usage in English? As far as I have checked on Google, the former is commoner. In Chinese, Korean, and Japanese, the terms for the dualism are equivalents of yin yang, not yin and yang. - TAKASUGI Shinji 00:08, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

Yes, I was wondering about this too. It might have been nice if Lowellian had communicated his reasons for the move. Yin Yang certainly is more common. One reason that Lowellian may have done it is because for years, in English, there was a rude expression ("up the Ying-Yang"), sometimes still used, which was likely a bastardization of Yin Yang. He may have wished to avoid this association. Sunray 02:00, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
Uh, if you guys were curious, why didn't you just ask me directly on my user talk page instead of speculating about my motives on this talk page and assuming (incorrectly, in this case) that I monitor this page all the time (which is the reason why this response comes two months late)? In any case, here's a couple more reasons why the page should be at yin and yang: Googling "yin yang" does yield more results than "yin and yang", but this includes results which shouldn't be counted, such as pinyin transliterations of the Chinese term or the term "yin-yang" used to refer (not quite correctly) to the taijitu rather than the concepts of yin and yang. Also, the article is actually about the concepts of yin and yang. Suppose we had an article about the concepts of light and dark, as compared with each other. We would not name the article "light dark"; we would name the article "light and dark". Yes, the Chinese term, 陰陽, does transliterate to yin yang in pinyin but a translation into English might well be "yin and yang" since the "and" is implied (as in many other Chinese two-character compounds). —Lowellian (talk) 15:31, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that Yin and Yang makes better sense in English than the (IMHO) inelegant "Yin Yang," and is therefore better for the primary article. Redirects are cheap! Fire Star 19:50, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Copyvio

Marked with copyvio due to two source links leading back to Encyclopedia Britanica[2], yet without an actual account on that site, it can't be verified. The links were added by Curtis Davis ([[User:]]) on June 13 (hist)

…Guy M… (soapbox) 11:01, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Can't we simply revert back to the 12 June, 2005 version? there was a lot on here that wasn't sourced from EB. Fire Star 02:54, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
From the copyvio policy page: "Pages where the most recent edit is a copyright violation, but the previous article was not, should not be deleted. They should be reverted." I reverted article to 12 June, 2005 version. Fire Star 03:07, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

When the article starts the section Meaning of Terms it states the following: Because yin means "sunny", it corresponds to the day and more active functions. Whereas yang, meaning "shady", corresponds to night and less active functions

Isn't that wrong? Shouldn't yin mean shady and yang be sunny? Throughout the rest of the text the mistake is continued, even though we are told to look at the chart: Yin and yang can be compared in the chart to the right. But looking at the chart would only confirm that the article got yin and yang backwards.

-greenheart (chuck1815@yahoo.com)

[From: former Taijitu article, now merged] as of the 1/1/06 edit, there is a quote at the bottom of the article cited as "others say:," and ending with an opinion. unless the quote can be attributed to an individual, it should either be removed entirely, or the quotation marks shold be removed along with the opinion statement at the end ("the second version is more complete")Shaggorama 04:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The entire quote is by Wu from a much longer didactic essay. I have a copy of the original essay, it was also published in a 1995 issue of T'ai Chi magazine. Unfortunately, Wu quotes two different quotes within his quote, and the single quotes I used to differentiate don't show up too well. Taijiquan is actually named after the subject of the article, and the quote seemed illustrative of a practical use for what most Westerners probably consider a mostly decorative design. --Fire Star 04:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section to Add

I would like someone to add something on this, but I don't want to because I don't have proper sources and I wouldn't know where to add it.

My history teacher explained the meaning of the yin yang symbol to me like this: At the height of yin their you find yang. At the height of yang - you find yin. This is the meaning of the two dots in the symbol. They are supposed to be the most important part. A bit of yin at the strongest point of yang. I think the point is that they are in-seperable. Could someone who understands this better please add this?--God of War 18:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add the following external link. It is a good translation of the basics of Yin and Yang theory from historical chinese text.

[edit] three part yin/yang

There is also sometimes seen a three part yin/yang, what does that signify? Chris 00:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

May have a partial answer at Taeguk Chris 08:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

perhaps the three is 1: the whole 2:the polarities 1+2=3

[edit] Title

The Title should be reverted to Yin and Yang as Yang is a proper noun.--JP 15:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yang is no more a proper noun than "light and dark" are proper nouns. —Lowellian (reply) 21:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 07:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Yin and yang → Yin-Yang – I think Yin-Yang sounds better, Yin and yang cannot be split, so that is one single concept, and that is also the Chinese name (陰陽) for it. Yao Ziyuan 04:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support as above Yao Ziyuan 04:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose: what matters here is the common English name by which the concept is known. Jonathunder 04:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose the proposed rename. Jonathunder is correct. See last July's discussion earlier on this page. "Yin-yang" should redirect to the current title, not vice versa. What "sounds better to" one editor is not a primary reason to change away from the most common form used in English-language reliable sources. Barno 02:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose common english terminology is current title. 70.51.10.35 05:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I agree with Lowellian's rationale for naming the page "Yin and Yang" (see "discussion" section, below). There is plenty of comment on this talk page to support keeping its current name. Sunray 05:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose present more common--Aldux 17:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

In case you folks hadn't noticed, this issue was discussed about one year ago on this page. Lowellian renamed the page "Yin and Yang. Here are his reasons:

Googling "yin yang" does yield more results than "yin and yang", but this includes results which shouldn't be counted, such as pinyin transliterations of the Chinese term or the term "yin-yang" used to refer (not quite correctly) to the taijitu rather than the concepts of yin and yang. Also, the article is actually about the concepts of yin and yang. Suppose we had an article about the concepts of light and dark, as compared with each other. We would not name the article "light dark"; we would name the article "light and dark". Yes, the Chinese term, 陰陽, does transliterate to yin yang in pinyin but a translation into English might well be "yin and yang" since the "and" is implied (as in many other Chinese two-character compounds). —Lowellian 15:31, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Sunray 05:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Principles item 6

I like the item, but the part about the 'dots' is a personal annoyance. They have not always existed in the image to the taichi, though I am having trouble determining the origin. I will likely complete my research, and start a new wiki topic regarding the taichi symbol itself. In the mean time, I propose that reference to the 'dots' be taken out in this context, as it works just as well to say that in any radial from the center of the taichi there is both black and white on the radial (though technically there are 2 lines where this is not true) Technotaoist 06:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I read the Yin and Yang article and was thrown of course when the first sentence said "the misconception of yin and yang..." Whether or not we belief the Yin-YAng philosophy, is it not still a concept, rather than a MISconcept? I changed it from misconcept to concept, because I suspected it was vandalisim.

Was I right in my edit? What are your opinions?

Thanks,

--Bewildered reader

You were right in removing the 'mis' part, Bewildered. It was probably another damn hell-forsaken troll trying to be funny. I hope he gets leprosy and starves to death in a dumpster in New England. Smith Jones 23:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Yin" or "Ying"... "Yan" or "Yang"?

The title of this article is "Yin and Yang". "Yin and yang" is the most common name for this concept. So why does the entire article use "ying" instead of "yin"? While the popularity of a term is a factor, in the end, as an encyclopedia, we have the obligation to set things straight with what the correct term is. Now since I have no expertise in this matter, I'm asking this as a question (as opposed to rhetoric): What is the proper (Pinyin, Wade, etc.) transliteration for these terms? Are the vowels long (implying no 'g') or short? 24.126.199.129 02:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The correct transliteration, whether using pinyin or Wade-Giles, is yin (not ying) and yang (not yan). The absence or presence of the g has nothing to do with the length of the vowels, though; it has to do with the ending sound. —Lowellian (reply) 21:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Error?

After correctly connecting yin with the the Moon and yang with the Sun, the first paragraph ends with a summating sentence: "Yin is often symbolized by fire, while Yang is symbolized by water." However, the Sun is explicitly linked with the element of Fire in the Daoist cosmology, as with the Moon and elemental Water. Typically, yin is linked with Water, and yang with Fire. I don't know whether whoever wrote this sentence was just confused, or whether they have some alternate source to support this sentence. I'm changing it for now. SumeragiNoOnmyouji 07:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

There has been a long history of drive by editors reversing the attributes. Since "Yin never leaves yang and yang never leaves yin" they may feel that they are correct, but I agree that the most attested correlations should be those listed, as in your recent correction. --Fire Star 火星 13:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] which is which?

Which is yin, and which is yang? I can never remember. 69.205.56.80 23:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Keyblade Mage

.... It says right in the article. Disinclination 02:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HELP! Vandalism!

I can't seem to get rid of this. It doesn't show up in the editor, so far as I can tell. End of the Summary section, just above See Also. Not quite sure why I can't erase it, but I would if I could. 70.176.178.118 02:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You might be seeing a previous verson of the page. If there was any vandalism, it is gone now. :) Disinclination 05:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm seeing vandalism too, and while it's not gone when I refresh, I can't edit it out. It's Spongebob-related.

[edit] Which side is which?

I'm not sure which side was yin, and which was yang, does anyone know? And shouldn't this be in the article somewhere anyway? Keyblade Mage 15:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Keyblade Mage

I don't think it matters what 'side' it is on. You could simply turn the symbol around, and find them on opposite 'sides'. Yin and yang isn't about what side is 'right' and what side is 'wrong. It's about.. well.. read the article. :P Disinclination 18:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I mean, is the black side yin, or yang? And is the white side yang, or yin? Get me? 'Cause Yin represents this, and that, and yang is supposed to be there for one thing and another, right?

Yin is dark, Yang is light. Disinclination 19:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
It can be said though that, in accordance with the theory, the tai-chi must be presented with yin on the right with the bulging portion downward; yang on the left with the bulging portion upward. In the simplest explanation, this makes sense since yin represents the cool element, and cold drops (ie, the bulge on the bottom); yang represents the warm element, and heat rises (ie, the bulge on the top). Furthermore, having them side by side allows this correspondance of opposites to be represented without hindrance. Stacking the portions horizontally also is incorrect in two ways: if yang is put on the bottom it would represent heat as not rising, although the bulge itself would. If yin is put on the bottom, it would show cold as dropping but its bulge would represent it as rising. It is contradictory. In my understanding of the theory, my aforementioned method for presenting the symbol is correct, and I believe the way the symbol is shown in the photo for the article philosophically is the only way it can be presented. Just something to consider. --Bentonia School 13:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Western culture views Yin and Yang as Good and Evil?

In Western culture, Yin and Yang are often inaccurately portrayed as corresponding to "evil" and "good" respectively.

Really? News to me. There is no citation here; I'm not qualified to edit the article, so I'll leave it to an expert, but in my perception, it's a more common Western view to equate Yin & Yang with masculine and feminine. This article's reference to the misconception seems unencyclopedic with any context or source. Eeblet 23:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, you kind of answered yourself right there as to why that statement is up there (it's a more common Western view to equate Yin & Yang with masculine and feminine. ). If you go around and ask almost anyone, they'll tell you that. So how do you source a common Western myth? Disinclination 23:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Heh, exactly -- can I nix the generalization altogether? Eeblet 07:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] yin yang in Albania

Does anyone possibly have any insight into these yin yang symbols found in Albania (ancient Illyrian city of Bylis)?

http://picasaweb.google.com/mhussey/BylisAlbania/photo#4986605740618285074 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Popcontest (talk • contribs) 00:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] original research

The summary of yin and yang concepts does not cite any reliable published sources and seems to contain original research. Please comment/reference or I will be instigating a bold cleanup. VanTucky 21:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Just add sources. Sunray 06:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Original research cannot by definition be sourced.VanTucky 06:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge of Taijitu article with this article

Strong Oppose Yin yangis a concept while tajitu is just a symbol, just like someone decide to merge Freedom with the Liberty Statue, how is that? --Saigon punkid 06:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose A merge tag at Yin and yang propose to merge that article into this one. As stated clearly at Taijitu, the latter is a diagram and the former a concept. Thus, I oppose the merge, especially a merge into Taijitu. Arguably, we might redirect readers from the diagram to the concepts it illustrates, but certainly not from the 3000 years old concept to the less than 1000 years old diagram.--Niels Ø (noe) 12:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose for the following reasons: 1) A merge tag was not placed on this page, suggesting bias. 2) The Taijitu article is stated, or at least insinuating, that the ying-yang concept is false, than that Taijitu is the correct. Which would make every editor that contributed to the Ying-yang article incorrect in their beliefs. 3) These articles seem to contrdict eachother, or at least don't match very well, other than that they share common.. similarities, it seems. In the event that the article does merge (which I doubt it will) it should be properly placed under the name Ying and yang, rather than Taijitu. But I don't think it should be merged at all. Disinclination 19:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't read both articles from beginning to end recently, but what's the contradiction? Yin and yang are are pair of concepts; taijitu is a famous diagram illustrating this pair, and often simply denoted "yin-yang" or the like, though some think that is incorrect. Is anything in either article at variance with these facts? - As stated above, I too oppose the merge.--Niels Ø (noe) 08:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Support I proposed the merger because they are articles that, while currently focusing on different aspects (concept vrs. symbol), cover one topic. The Taijitu is the symbol of the Taoist metaphysical concept which is called Yin and Yang in Western culture. Having separate articles for different cultural conceptions of a single topic is unnecessary. As far as bias goes, I have not previously edited either article and I did place tags on both pages. A merge does not mean the diminishing of one aspect of the topic, only one comprehensive article. Furthermore, even on it's own, the Yin and Yang article needs cleanup for original research in a bad way. VanTucky 21:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I have requested comment on RFC. VanTucky 21:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Support They should definetly be merged. There should be subsection in the yin/yang article explaing the symbol.Zeus1234 22:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. The Yin and Yang article is rather stubby on its own, but would make a reasonable section in a merged article. The Yin and Yang page should then become a redirect to Taijitu. While some Western readers may not be familiar with the latter term, it is the correct term and a merged article would promote learning. Sunray 06:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

comment: okay, its been sometime and it looks like we have three for support and two for oppose. This is too close for my absolute comfort, so I'll do another RFC or something similar. If this elicits no more response, I'm going to go ahed with the merge. The only question is about title. I think yin yang should redirect to a combined article entitled taijitu. any comment? VanTucky 06:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I have already cast my vote (the first one, an<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Lupin/navpop.css&action=raw&ctype=text/css&dontcountme=s"> "oppose"), but I don't think any of the subsequent "supports" have answered my objections. If you want an article about yin-yang in Western culture, or in taoism (at least as perceived by Western culture), then of course the symbol and the concept is "one" - usually known as "yin (and) yang", not as "taijitu". "Western culture" here referes to pop culture, New Age, and alternative medicine; in Western academic tradition, more nuances are recognized. But in a Chinese historical context, the concept is at least 2500 years old - and I think one could document or at least make a good case for it being a lot older than that, but I am no expert. The concept is central to some branches of taoism (it is mentioned once in the Tao Te Ching), but it also plays a role in other Chinese schools of thought. The symbol, on the other hand, is less than 1000 years old (I haven't located my source, but I think it was invented around 1100 CE), and is specific to taoism. So I really cannot see any reason to merge Yin and Yang into Taijitu as proposed, but perhaps the other way (which hasn't been formally proposed) since Taijitu is logically and historically subordinary to Yin and Yang, and also because relatively few outside China know the name Taijitu anyway, where as most people know the words Yin and Yang. The main argument against this merge is that it's two different things; the main arguments in favor of it are (i) that they are related and we can avoid repeating some info in two different articles that way, and (ii) that both articles as they stand would be extremely short if all unsourced material was removed. However, instead of a merge, I think both articles should be improved, especially by referencing appropriate sources--Niels Ø (noe) 15:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

"logically and historically subordinary" seems like a pretty good reason to merge to me. The main argument against keeping them separate for your last reason is that a stub referring to just the symbol and just the concept can only go so far (this is a symbol, this is what it means, this is where it comes from) and would be more comprehensive and informative as one article connecting the two. It seems to me from your timeline explanation, that it makes another argument for merging. If the taijitu is a younger Taoist symbol of an ancient, syncretic idea in Chinese philosophy and culture then shouldnt it be a part of the Yin Yang article? VanTucky 17:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I see Niels Ø (noe)'s point. I also don't think we have consensus on a merge in either direction. Perhaps it make the most sense to keep the two articles in any case since readers may be interested in either concept. As long as there are good links between the two, it shouldn't be a problem. Sunray 19:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I guess it just seems silly to keep two poor stubs separate when together they would make an interesting and comprehensive article. VanTucky 19:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, agreed. So the challenge is for users to expand and improve both articles. Failing that, it sounds like we should try to work at a consensus to merge Taijitu into Yin and Yang. Sunray 20:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I frankly think that's a waste of time. The scope of a Taijitu stub alone is very limited, and the only work that has been done to expand the Yin and Yang article has been insipid original research (philosophical interpretation). VanTucky 21:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
According to A.C. Graham, the "yin-yang" school dates at least to the third century BC, and is separate from other schools of Taoism at the time in lists of schools provided by contemporary chroniclers. The categorisation is implied in the I Ching, and the Taiji concept is mentioned in other philosophical works dating to that time, too, but I agree that the symbol itself is probably of Neo-Confucian origin. It may have been used earlier, but I don't know of any surviving examples. That being said, I feel there is no harm having Taijitu (at least until we have enough material to make a decent article) as a subsection of Yin-yang. --Fire Star 火星 22:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I have no objection to that. But please note that the proposal was to merge Ying and Yang into Taijitu, not the other way round; I still oppose that.--Niels Ø (noe) 08:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
No, I proposed it as a general merge, I placed a tag on both pages and I didnt specify which into which. VanTucky 17:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
VanTucky, you're right; sorry. I wish someone would improve both article to the point where a merge would not make sense, but I don't have the time to do so myself. A problem in this context is to distinguish between serious and not-so-serious sources. As the articles stand, converting Taijitu into a redir and moving its info to Yin and yang would not be unreasonable. I have therefore stroked out my "oppose" above. However, VanTucky wrote above: I think yin yang should redirect to a combined article entitled taijitu - I still oppose a merge in that direction.--Niels Ø (noe) 07:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, so you support a merge of Taijitu into Yin and Yang then? VanTucky 20:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Support a merge into Yin and yang, which is the better-known (and arguably superordinate) term. -- Visviva 12:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Support They are essentially the same thing, so they should be merged into the article with the better known name, per Visviva.PierceG 02:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poll tally

  • Support merge: 6
  • Oppose merge: 2

We thus have a supermajority (75%) who favour a merge. From the discussion, I note that generally those who commented saw Taijitu being merged into Yin and yang. Even the two opposed saw Yin and Yang as being the main subject (e,g, freedom) and Taijitu as being the symbol to embody it (e.g, the Statue of Liberty). Disinclination, who opposed, stated: "In the event that the article does merge (which I doubt it will) it should be properly placed under the name Ying and yang, rather than Taijitu."

My sense is thus that there is a consensus to merge Taijitu into Yin and Yang. If there are no objections, I will complete the merge. Sunray 19:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Result: Articles merged

Merge completed. Sunray 19:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yin Yang symbol used for WikiProject Alternative medicine

I have just created the banner template for this WikiProject, and I thought it somewhat appropriate to use this symbol (I couldn't immediately think of any other). If anyone thinks that was a bad idea, let me know. (I notice the martial arts project already uses it, maybe others too. It is pretty versatile.) __meco 20:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Overall

It is amazing to see (as of 01/01/2008) a Wikipedia article about such a fundamental symbol of Chinese philosophy so incomplete and of such a poor quality. Especially strange is the part at the end which not at a right place pushes the information about the Greek notion of dualism, furthermore, all (some of them not working or to amateur websites) references are to pages also about Greek philosophy! I do not know about Yin Yang much, I want to learn about it, that's why I came here, but I would really recommend someone who does know to fix the overall article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.32.149 (talk) 01:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This page misrepresents the Christian concept of suffering

Under the "Duality in other philosophy" heading this article claims that Christianity posits a supernatural dualism to explain suffering in this world. This is absolutely false. Christianity does not claim that good and evil, light and dark, God and Satan, etc., are equal and that one cannot exist without the other. Christianity teaches that God (who is good), created all things as "very good" (Gen. 1:31), including Satan. Satan chose to rebel and deceived Eve (the first woman) to rebel, too. Adam soon followed suit and all of creation now suffers from their choices. Christianity also teaches that someday all evil will be done away with. This cannot be seen as the same as or similar to the duality of the yin yang. Would somebody please correct this error? Thank you. Theologyguy (talk) 21:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You bring up some good points, I am not completely satisfied with the wording, either. Yin and yang do not represent any "divine duality", in Taoism at least they represent man-made category. I think comparing duality in other religions is mixing apples and oranges. We really should be able to demostrate direct connexions, otherwise we are merely indulging in trivia sections. The only outside religion that China was really dealing culturally with (at least after 2-300 AD or so) was Buddhism, and other concepts (with the possible exception of Tocharian Manichaeanism) just can't be demonstrated as having an influence on yin yang theory, or that yin yang theory had any influence on Western culture until the 17th century at the earliest (Liebniz being the first example I can think of). If the article has to mention other religions at all, we shouldn't be concentrating on orthodox Christianity exclusively, there is also gnostic Christianity to consider, which is much more dualistically themed. There are some elements of dual categories in Christian iconic traditions; the sponge held up and the spear used to impale Jesus on the cross, for example. --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 17:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Removed reference to Christianity. Sunray (talk) 08:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 10 Yin Yang from the sky (Google Earth)

Hi,

Maybe this should be usefull for external links : 10 Yin Yang from the sky French text.

Thanks,

Stéphane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.100.63.124 (talk) 19:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

While interesting, I see some problems with this. It has little to do with the concept of "Yin and Yang". It's also a French Language site. This is the English Wiki. While the images do speak for themselves, I'm not sure that it fits. If you have more information on the topic, I think it would make a very interesting topic on it's own in Wikipedia. --Technotaoist (talk) 04:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Equation

Can somebody verify the mathematical equation? -Spansign (talk) 06:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems as though the link I provided doesn't provide the correct website. i will try to find some other means of verifying this equation.

[edit] A Third Concept Missing

The article thus far omits explanation of an important part of the image, namely the meaning of the existence of the opposite parts within the other. I believe this relates to the notion of non-well-foundedness (as opposed to "well-foundedness" at it is known in mathematical set theory - there is also "non-well-founded set theory"). So, we have an outer circle symbolising unity, two black and white "drop shapes" representing duality and a third component black/white "eyes" representing a third concept. I believe the third concept might also be thought of as a kind of recursion. As an example, in human endeavours we might think of three parts, namely intent, capability and awareness. The non-well-foundedness comes in bringing about the duals, so to have intent in capability becomes attent(ion) in awareness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.61.229 (talk) 09:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] English slang expression: "out the ying-yang

Just dropped by to comment about this English usage, which may be, but most likely isn't, rooted in the context-meaning of this article; the phrase means "very thorough", every last detail, "the whole shebang", and then some....Skookum1 (talk) 21:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)