Talk:Yesterday and Today

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 Yesterday and Today was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: March 19, 2008


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Contents

[edit] Butcher cover

I think the 'butcher cover' ought to be displayed within the article. It's the one thing that makes this album infamous outside the US. --kingboyk 23:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

NOT an external link! Sigh. If you want something done, do it yourself right? :) I'm gonna merge the article on the cover into here and add a picture. --kingboyk 04:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It was my understanding that Lennon and/or the Beatles had nothing to do with the use of the butcher photo on the cover of this LP. Snopes [1] has a very persuasive article indicating that the photo shoot was for a different purpose entirely, complete with an interview with the photographer wherein he states emphatically that the shoot was not intended for any LP cover. Is there any source indicating that anyone in the band or their management had "insisted" that the photo be used for the cover, as the article claims? --G0zer

It is stated here and in other articles about the Beatles that the 'butcher' picture was originally used on the cover of the UK single of "Paperback Writer". This is incorrect. The picture was used only for promotion of the single, which was not issued with a picture cover in 1966. For the 1986 reissue, the 'butcher' picture was incorporated in the sleeve design. I will try to correct this wherever it appears. --Jd204 00:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

What is up with the title of this article? Not only does Yesterday...and Today redirect here (and Yesterday... and Today not), but the title it redirects to has some oddly spaced periods in it! If the title should have an ellipsis in it, then it should be Yesterday… and Today (compare Let It Be... Naked vs. Let It Be… Naked), but I see no indication on either cover that it should have any ellipsis at all! I'm really in favor of moving this to Yesterday and Today. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 03:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree. The ellipses in the name seem to be a common convention but plenty of Google hits show references that ignore them. As you say, the acid test (pun unintended) should be what's on the cover and they ain't there... Cheers, Ian Rose 10:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Looks like the ellipsis does appear on the back cover (at least on the horribly damaged version that I have, which has no front cover remaining), but I still stand by the fact that the article title should be without an ellipsis (or a horrible excuse for one). —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 03:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The ellipsis also appears on the record label itself. [2] In fact, according to the label, the title (with full punctuation) is "Yesterday" …and Today. Note the ellipsis is actually shifted to the word on the right. Also, as depicted in Nicholas Schaffner's The Beatles Forever, an interim cover was proposed and scrapped prior to the official "trunk" cover. I found a picture on the Web which matches the one in the book. [3] On this cover, the ellipsis is visible on the front. That said, I don't have a problem with moving the article to the less confusing title. Critics seem to split the difference. Schaffner doesn't use the ellipsis, but the Rolling Stone Album Guide does. Due to Capitol's inconsistent typography, I think we have multiple valid options availabe to us. --GentlemanGhost 13:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Not only is their spacing and punctuation inconsistent, but Capitol is also inconsistent with their capitalization. The front cover has "And" while the back cover has "and". Obviously, all of these possible interpretations would be a redirect to the actual article, which I still suggest we move to Yesterday and Today, as per the final front cover and Wikipedia's capitalization policy. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 06:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Since this discussion has been posted for so many months and no one has objected, I've gone ahead and moved the article. Next, I will fix and double redirects that have resulted. --GentlemanGhost 06:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Alas, I did a cut-and-paste move and consequently truncated the edit history of this article. (Newbie mistake, send me hate mail if you must.) In order to redeem myself, I have made a request at WP:MOVE to fix this, if possible. --GentlemanGhost 23:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Belated follow-up: An admin moved the article name properly and restored the edit history, so we're in good shape. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 01:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ninth album?

The first paragraph states that this is the ninth official album, however it is not in the sequence at the bottom of the page. The information in the box below the photo shows this album between Revolver and Sgt Peppers, and would be the 7th in the series of official album releases. Does anyone have any objection to updating the information in the first paragraph and at the bottom to match? --Baronvon

Actually, the first paragraph states that this is the 9th Capitol release by the Beatles, not the 9th official album. This is accurate and not in conflict with the template at the bottom of the page. The trick is that the Beatles' album releases in the U.K. and the U.S.A. were not synchronized. Yesterday... and Today is a U.S.-only release, containing mostly songs that were previously released in the U.K. on other Beatles albums. I presume that is why the creator of the Beatles template did not include it in the list of "official" albums. Since the Beatles were a British group, it is reasonable to consider the U.K. record chronology as official, especially since these releases usually preceded their American releases. I hope that helps to clarify. --GentlemanGhost 12:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section on Record Collecting, etc

My apologies in advance to whoever labored over the lengthy and exceedingly detailed section about Peter Livingston, etc. -- but that section is far too long and detailed to belong in this article. It is simply disproportionate, and actually somewhat off-topic. A short paragraph summarizing the story would be fine, and more than adequate. I strongly suggest that it be taken down. Perhaps it can be moved elsewhere -- possibly incorporated into the article about record collecting? I'd like to know if there are any serious objections to my proposal before I proceed. Cgingold 11:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text for Butcher Picture

It previously read "Alternate Cover." I think it should read "Original Cover" maybe "Banned Version" or something of that ilk. I would like the jury to look at this. Sixstring1965 21:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

As I've noted before, the original cover should be listed at the top of the infobox, and the alternate cover should be listed in the {{Extra album cover 2}} section, using the upper caption "Alternate cover", per Template:Infobox Album#Cover and Template:Infobox Album#Template:Extra album cover 2. I think an argument could be made that either cover is the original cover. The field "Caption" for the upper image and the field "Lower caption" of the bottom image is the place to note what the respective image refers to. I don't see what's wrong with using "Alternate cover" as the upper caption in either case, or why this article should not adhere to the album article guidelines. --PEJL 22:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's plainly not an alternate cover. Sixstring1965 22:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I would also consider dropping the Butcher picture into the Butcher section. Sixstring1965 22:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

We've discussed this before, and you keep stating that it's not an alternate cover, but have yet to explain why that is. --PEJL 22:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Reformatted the picture. Hope you like it!Sixstring1965 02:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have a couple of questions remaining:
Through the evolution of this statement, there still remain no citations for this. If we cannot cite the provenance of the reasoning behind the title, we cannot tweak the wording enough to avoid the need for a citation. I don't think it can stay in its present form. I will wait until morning to wait for some feedback from others here. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I must object to moving the cover out of the infobox as well. When there are alternate covers, they should be listed in the infobox in the Template:Infobox Album#Template:Extra album cover 2 section. As I've said before I see no reason why this article should not follow album article guidelines. --PEJL 05:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


Arc, I have a citation I'm going to add for the "early album proofs. It was getting late and I didn't have time to finish.


The Butcher picture is now in it's section which explains the story behind it. I think it works better that way then having it as an alternate cover which is misleading. Sixstring1965 13:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

To explain a little better, having the butcher cover photo moved to it's section makes the story more encyclopedic and I think it flows better. Sixstring1965 13:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

While I was at it, I added the citations requested. Why isn't time spent on fixing these problems instead? Sixstring1965 14:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Six, I am still a little concerned witht he last sentence at the end of the Lead. While the citation does indeed say that the word yesterday is indeed in quotation marks, how does that make it noteworthy? If you are implying that the quote refers to the song of that name that is the sort of quote you should be looking for. The way it is, it isn't noteworthy and runs into WP:UNDUE problems, especially since its in the Lead. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know where to go on that one. Perhaps you can reword it. My main concern was the butcher problem. Sixstring1965 21:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Six, just so I understand the situation as it stands now, you are saying that you prefer the original Butcher image not be used as the placeholder (even though it has every right to be there) because you thinkt he image is better utilized as a descriptive image in another section? I'm not faulting your judgment here, i am just asking.
On the yesterday topic, I am strongly tempted to remove the sentence entirely, for without a connection to the song Yesterday, it has no value to the article. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Arc, Exactly. The butcher cover shouldn't be recognized as an alternate cover in the main section as it was the original cover. The trunk cover would be best described as the alternate. Since this poses a problem in description, I think it works much better with the section of the same name. As far as the "Yesterday" thing goes, I could very well take it or leave it. Althought they did quote the word as a play on words for the song. Do what you want on that one, I trust you'll do it proper.Sixstring1965 22:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I gotcha. I agree with your reasoning that the article is better off describing the original cover in its own section, as there is more to say about it (and there are more references for the topic). I will remove the Yesterday thing, as the citations doesn't really speak to the Yesterday song reference as well as it could. Some refs aren't very strong. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

Strange that this has been nominated without any recent discussion (9 October 2007?) Hmmm... Anyway, it needs more references, but I hope it will pass.--andreasegde (talk) 23:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I've never nominated an article for GA before, but I thought that this one might meet the criteria. If not, I'm sure whatever suggestions are made will help move the article in that direction. As far as the lack of recent discussion, I presume that there was enough compromise on the issues to satisfy all concerned parties who made points here on the talk page previously. However, I didn't actually verify this. I suppose someone may have just given up fighting for their point of view. :) I did, however, re-read the article to make such it didn't have anything that I considered to be a glaring fault. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 00:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Maybe bringing it up here beforehand might have proven to be helpful. As I don't think we can withdraw it now, we are stuck with this premature action. I am unsure as to how long we would have to wait if the article is refused GA - since I don't think its representative of GA-quality articles - but perhaps it would be very, very wise in the future to work within the community of discussion before doing something like that again, GG.- Arcayne (cast a spell) 09:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Too true, compadre Arcayne. BTW, the nominator can take it off the GAN list anytime, and even if it has failed, they can put it back on straightaway (although this is probably not a good idea.)--andreasegde (talk) 09:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Arcayne, I'm sorry that you feel that the nomination was premature. However, I don't see how receiving impartial feedback will hurt the article. Also, I'd like to point out that discussing the nomination on the talk page beforehand is not a requirement for nomination; it's not even suggested as a "good practice". However, I will certainly think about doing so next time as I don't like being bitten. Moving on, where can the article be improved? --GentlemanGhost (talk) 01:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Andreas, are there items in particular that you think need further reference? Or is it that you would like to have more sources in general? Thanks! --GentlemanGhost (talk) 05:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

Find as many as you can. Sentences such as ""first state" covers, are very rare and command the highest prices", "Nevertheless, the album reached #1 on the U.S. Billboard charts by 30 July 1966 and was certified gold soon after", "Apart from the butcher cover, this album is of interest to collectors for the appearance of unique mixes of Revolver-era tracks unavailable elsewhere", "In particular, John Lennon pushed to use it as an album cover", all need references. That's just a start - there are a few more.--andreasegde (talk) 12:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Click on this to see an album of photos. Click on the photos to enlarge them.--andreasegde (talk) 13:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

This is also good.--andreasegde (talk) 13:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I think the "Lennon pushed" quote (and ensuing material) were all sourced by the Schaffner book, but I'll double-check. I wasn't sure if you needed to reference each sentence or if one reference was enough to cover multiple sentences. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 00:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
They cover one subject, even if it is spread over two or three sentences. As soon as the subject changes, it needs another one.--andreasegde (talk) 14:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unsuccessful GAN

I don't think this meets the broad criteria of WP:GA?. Compare it to some of the GA Beatles articles (here) - a lot of the songs there have a lot more information, including much more reception and release info, plus more on songwriting. I don't think this article is quite there yet, but I'd be happy to take another look if you wish to renominate it at some stage. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)