Talk:Yeshivish Jews

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This article was nominated for deletion on 10 October 2007. The result of the discussion was No consensus..

[edit] to the left of hasidic judaism?

are you joking? why would you say that? Is R. Elyashiv left of Hasidic Judaism? Was Rav Shach left of Hasidic Judaism? This is a traditional form of Judaism tracing its roots back to R. Chaim Volozhin's founding Yeshiva in Volozhin. They tend to be stern, stringent, highly intellectual, rational, legalistic, and against emotional or mystical tendencies in Judaism. It is the last quality that differentiates them from Hasidic Jews. The laws are kept more stringently by the Yeshivish. I can give many examples...especially the minutiae. --Shigaon

Basically I rewrote the whole piece. I don't understand why this is the context to rehash the distinction between Judaism and Hassidus. Yes, chassidim are complete am ho'aratzim (about both Yiddishkeit, and the secular world) but that's covered elsewhere. This article's purpose should be to explain that Yeshivish = Judaism (i.e., hisnagdus) and that it may have some cultural implications as well. --BBB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.206.5 (talk) 06:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge/s

There is a lot of overlap between this article and the Yeshivish article. They should be merged to create one coherent article about what is the same subject really, yeshiva ("yeshivish") people who speak "yeshivish" -- after all, what type of "sub-group" are they really? Otherwise both articles should be merged with the Yeshiva article. IZAK (talk) 04:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Those favoring a merge of Yeshivish with Yeshivish Jews:

• Merge IZAK (talk) 04:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Those favoring some sort of merge with the Yeshiva article:

Those opposed to a merge:

[edit] Discussion

Personally, I am actually opposed to the notion of "Yeshivish Jews" because there is no such species. How are they different to Haredi Jews or even to many Hasidic Jews who study at Litvish yeshivas such as Torah Vodaas and Brisk yeshivas? This is a problem article. But it seems that some people like the topic, with so-called citations, so let's see how it pans out out. IZAK (talk) 04:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Are there any members of the Yeshivish speech community who are not Jews? If not, the term "Yeshivish Jews" is redundant and for that reason alone not a suitable heading for a Wikipedia article. It would also follow from this, that the target for the merged article should more appropriately be the one on Yeshivish. (If the essential attribute of Yeshivish is more than linguistic commonality, the article might benefit from highlighting that more clearly.) --Futhark|Talk 09:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The word "Yeshivish" is being used in two different ways, resulting in two different concepts here. "Yeshivish" is a pidgin or creole of English, but "Yeshivish Jews" describes a religious tradition and outlook many of whose participants speak no English at all, and many of whose English-speaking participants speak perfectly ordinary English. IZAK is right that Yeshivish Judaism is simply "Litvish" or Haredi Mitnaged Judaism. I think the Shamash source describes it well:

"Yeshivish" (colloquially, [sometimes pejorative, sometimes affectionate] "black hat" or "black") suggests an Orthodox outlook in which the focus of life is Torah study, as is done in Lithuanian-style Yeshivos. Secular culture is either tolerated or criticized for its corrupting influences. This group tends to be "non-Zionist" in the sense that they love the land of Israel and its holiness (many spend years in Israel for Torah study), but are unenthusiastic about secular Zionism and Israeli secular culture. In America, Agudah Yisroel is yeshivish. In Israel, Agudah Yisroel is chassidic, and Degel haTorah is yeshivish. [1]

Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 01:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Note: One could make an argument that two of "Misnagdim, Litvish Jews, and Yeshivish Jews should be redirects to the third. I believe Misnagdim best describes 18th and 19th century historical movements while Litvish Jews and Yeshivish Jews describe contemporary groups descended from them. Currently Litvish Jews redirects to Yeshivish Jews. But one could make an argument that this redirection should be reversed. I believe that per WP:Naming conventions usage should describe which term to use for the main article. I am open to the possibility the less-prevalent term was chosen if we could find evidence of use. Google shows 75,000 hits for "Litvish" and 112,000 for "Yeshivish", but in addition to the problem of "Yeshivish" having multiple meanings, I don't think the internet and ghits are a good gauge of usage in this community, and neither term would be familiar to ordinary English speakers. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 01:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Fully agree with Shira. Stick the term Ben Torah in here somewhere as well. Personally I think Yeshivish is the more popular term in America and Litaim\Bnei Tayrah in Israel but it's not really important.Wolf2191 (talk) 15:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Also agree (basically) w/ shira. Misnagdim refers to those who are fundamentally and ideologically opposed to Chasidism, a view which is almost nonexistant today. Litvish means Lithuanian (as opposed to chassidish) both literally and colloquially. Yeshivish, however, is a modern term (in its current usage; in Europe it was a pejorative meaning "juvenile") for a modern concept of Yeshivish which is only significant by its contrast to non-yeshivish Litvish Jews, who are themselves a product of modern, post-Europe Jewish evolution. Additionally, Litvish redirects to Lithuanian Jews, so Litvish Jews should also redirect there (I have fixed this). Yeshivish is definitely more common in America than litaim. Additionally, though Litaim in Hebrew is literally Lithuanian/Litvish, the Israeli usage of Litaim should not play a role in defining the "English" term Yeshivish, to be used in English wiki.
I also am removing the merge suggestion since there is no concensus, and if anything, more opposed. (I personally also disagree, since many people are ideologically Yeshivish and can be described as Yeshivish Jews but have no experience speaking the Yeshivish language/shprach. (The opposite also exists, though less commonly.) Keyed In (talk) 06:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)