Talk:Yeraz
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An entry from Yeraz appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 19 December 2006. |
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It is better to keep cited extensive version. Of course, the article should be united with the article "Azerbaijanis in Armenia". It is abouth the same
[edit] Clan
Is this the best word to describe them? I understand that they are "different" from other Azeris but clan suggests some sort of a genetic bond, no? The same applies to Armenians from Baku, they stick together and are "different" from other Armenians because of some cultural differences but they are surely not a clan.--Eupator 23:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- It surprised me too: The term clan was used by virtually all the sources I found (and I merely searched "Yerazi"). While I first had some pause with the word (especially since the US connotations are weird), I read the Wikipedia article on clan and felt it worked. --Bobak 23:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
changed back since Azerbaijanis lived there from before Republic of Armenia was established in 1918. --adil 09:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Yeraz"
I think this article is writtem in unprefessional and immature form which irrelevantly assocciates Western Azerbaijani people who lived in modern-day Armenian Republic. with "clan". Additionally, in my opinion it might well sound offencise to call them "Yerazi" or "Yeraz", this word is used in slang, not to be used in scientific-literary circules.
The word 'yeraz' which became widespreadly used in Azerbaijan after Armenian azerbajanis were forced to flee Armena in 1988, derives from "Yerevan azerbaijanis" which had been living in Armenia shortly before Soviet Union collapsed. Yerevan is the modern-day capital of Armenia and historically was populated with noteciable number of azerbaijanis. Thus Armenian azerbaijanis are thought to be indigenous people of Armenia and were expelled from Armenia and thus became refugees due to political tensions between Armenia and Azerbaiajn. The esatimamted amounts of azerbaijani refuggees driven out of Armenia is reported to be around 300 thousand people or so.
In short, I protest the association of "clan" which sounds quite political with ethimological term-western azerbaijani people. In addition they dont stick together, on the contrary they are very well integrated into Azerbajani society, involved into political, economical and cultural spheres of the country. I would not use "cultural difference", but rather "pseudocultural difference".
- Do you have citations? The term "clan" is used in currently cited sources and falls well into the very definition used in Wikipedia's article on the word. Right now your statements come off as strong POV. In fact, I cannot see how things are "unprefessional and immature". --Bobak 18:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 213.189.187.251's issues
My concern with your edits is that we already have an article on Azerbaijanis in Armenia, now added to the "see also" section. This article is about the present people today. I think the articles compliment each other. --Bobak (talk) 21:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- I also welcome comment from the brand new user, Vardenik (who's first edit was on this talk page), as well as the anon 194.78.24.82. Because topics related to Armenia/Azerbaijan/Turkey/Armenian Genocide/Nagorno-Karabakh, etc have all been under massive POV disputes from subjective parties (which have resulted in bans and partial bans of partisan users), sweeping changes require discussion and thorough explanation. It's just how things are done on Wikipedia. --Bobak (talk) 19:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Ara, Bobak.
Yes, there were Turks (Azerbaijanis) in Armenia untill 1990. Most of them now are now living in Azerbaijan. If someone calls them Yeraz or something else, it is then just a small aspect of the main problem, which is Azeris from Armenia. And there is the mentioned article. we have to concentrate on that article. Soon or later the adminstrator will unite them.
Personally, in your previous I knew many of them. It is bullshit about their difference from rest Azerbaijanis. By the way none of your sources do not support this thesis at all. At least find some. It does not help simply to undo 213.189.187.251.
Better to concentrate on the article Azerbaijanis in Armenia.
Vardenik.
- The nice thing about Wikipedia is we have unlimited space. We can write articles to compliment each other, and link them in-text as well as in the "See Also" section. The Azerbaijanis in Armenia is good, and it covers the situation of past and present Azeris in that country. The Yeraz article has been about those who left in the past and what their status has been as a political force in modern Azerbaijan government and society, so in a way they are comparable to our two articles on Volga Germans and the History of Germans in Russia and the Soviet Union (or looking at how Nisei compliments the article on Japanese American). In this case as in those, while there is some overlap we can accommodate both. It can even offer better organization. I think these two articles can distinguish themselves and share prominent links both in-text and in See Also. --Bobak (talk) 23:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
SOMEONE SHOULD HAVE EXPLAINED IT
I could agree what Bobak's obvious countryman Vardenik says. We have the Azerbaijanis from Armenian, but there is an article about only Azerbaijanis in (?) Armenia, which sounds exotic. There is no proof on existence of Azerbaijanis in Armenia. Anyway on your approach.
1. On the name of the article
As you and yourselfs state, yeraz is can be construed as a pejorative. Why should we then create an article about a group of people with an insulting name? That contradicts core prinsiples of Wikipedia. Certainly we should not keep silence on that, but is not the identifying factor. Last but not least, these people are surrently increasingly called west azerbaijanis (qərbi-azərbaycanlılar). see
http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN016499.pdf page 17
and any Azeri newspaper (if you can read). just search "qərbi azərbaycanlılar"
2. On the level of expertise
I am deeply impressed with your stubborn insistance to keep passages on ill statements, which even your source does not support.
PROOFS
1.
You say
"...Because they developed with some different customs and cuisine from Azeris in Azerbaijan, the Yerazi have maintained a cohesive sub-culture within the country. Due to tension and cultural differences between Eastern Azeris and their Western cousins, the term "Yeraz" can be construed as a pejorative".
You refer to http://www.c-r.org/our-work/accord/nagorny-karabakh/political-glossary.php.
But your source says
"Yerazi An informal and for some pejorative term used in Azerbaijan to denote Azerbaijanis of Armenian origin. The term means 'Azeris from Yerevan'. The Yerazi form a cohesive political clan that, together with the Nakhichevani clan, has been a dominant force in internal Azerbaijani politics since Soviet times".
I have not found any hint about your grandious statements on "different customs and cuisine" and "tension and cultural difference".
May be you have personal experience or are one of them. But it does not matter. You have to refer and do it correctly. Otherwise, we will soon witness an ethnogenesis of new nation named "yeraz" created by Bobak.
2.
You say
"The Yeraz have two non-political movements: Ararat (Azeri: Alindja) and the Yerevan Unity (Azeri: Erevan Birliyi)".
You cite http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN016499.pdf
which says in its page 24
"The Yerazi have two Agridag (the Turkish/Azeri name of Ararat), led unofficially by Ali Insanov, and the Yerevan Birliyi (Yerevan Unity)founded in May 2001 by Ramiz Mehtiev".
Here you have factual mistake with Alindja. As your source states, Alindja belongs to different clan.
213.189.187.251 (talk) 00:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
