Talk:Yehoshua Sofer

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[edit] Is there a place for Yehoshua Sofer (Nigel Admor) in Wikipedia?

Conjecture regarding the historical veracity of Abir is one thing, but to build a Wikipedia page regading Yehoshua Sofer (Nigel Admor) is quite another.

Given the dances performed by the Yemenites, and the long warrior history of the Arabian Penninsula, plus the extensive trade with India and China, the existence of a martial art form is possible, although not recorded (although Abit, itself, is tradmarked - can you do that with Qigong, Tai chi chuan, Kungfu, karate, taekwondo?).

But, given the published evidence regarding Yehoshua Sofer's origins (born to a Chasidic, Bretslaver, family, in Jamaica, raised in Los Angeles, he came to Israel and recorded reggae music, before being reincarnated into a Yemenite, Habani warrior, with a family background that existed in Jerusalem for generations (I am not sure which story I like better).

Because Yehoshua Sofer's background is known, most other Wikipedia foreign language pages (especially Hebrew), would focus on the martial art, rather than the grandmaster. SZAgassi 13:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

I am currently working to make this article more than just a stub. It is going to take some time to go about seperating information in terms of what his historical and what is a claim of the Abir Martial art.--EhavEliyahu 17:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I am also going to add information about the Habbani Jews who are said to have been warriors for some of the Sultans in Arabia.--EhavEliyahu 17:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please Leave Signatures

Also Benforman and user 130.88.132.175 can you make sure to sign your comments using the signature button. It makes it easier to keep up with. Thanks.--EhavEliyahu 17:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of Adullah with bodyguards

The picture "Abdullah I of Jordan with his Habbani Jewish bodyguards Sayeed, Salaah, and Saadia Sofer, c. 1922."

I'm sure is not what it claims to be. I have a picture of Ibn Saud who became ruler of Saudi Arabia in 1902. The picture was taken in 1911 and the man standing on the left of the picture on this page I'm sure is Ibn Saud.Benforman 11:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The men in the photo all wear pe'ot in the Habbani style (i.e., braided). None of them is ibn Saud. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 23:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at this image below it is a picture of Ibn Saud the 1st ruler of Saudi Arabia taken in 1911 and compare it to the man on the far left of the picture [1]

[2]

he also appears to have his hair in a braided style but the cannot be pe'ot. Maybe I am wrong but I thought at first that they do look a little similar. The link doesn't work, will need to copy and paste it into your browser address window.

Here is a picture of Abbdullah 1st of Jordan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_I_of_Jordan Benforman 11:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

read this article about Yehoshua Sofer from 2000 - his martial arts skills are excellent, but I'm not sure about Abir: http://www.kuksoolwon.co.il/jerusalemreport.html130.88.132.175 14:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Greetings. I looked at the picture that you provided of ibn Saud and they don't look like the same person. The picture that is in the article actually came from a photo from the Sofer family in Israel. In terms of the picture you provided of ibn Saud I edited the first link and it should work now. I could not make the second one work. His hair is not in the style of Simonim i.e. Pe'ot (Pe'ot in Yemen were called Simonim). The picture of ibn Saud shows his hair in what looks like several braids. Simonim, as Yemenites braided them, are only two and are curled in a certain way. Also, his eyes look different. Do you have some specific evidence that the picture in the Abir article is a fake and acually of ibn Saud?
In terms of whether Abir is authentic. I recently received two letters from two Rabbis in Israel (one Yemenite and one Ashkenazi) who say Abir is authentic. I will have to translate them into English since they are in Hebrew. I need to check into how these can be presented in the article. Yehoshua Sofer mentioned that there are some articles out there that do not represent Abir correctly. The Abir web-site is being updated and it will include the letters from the Rabbis soon. Based on the evidence that the Habbani and the Jews of Daghestan had fighting techniques and soldiers, Abir isn't an impossible concept. As I get more information that can be verified with sources I will add it. The Abir web-site does explain why he learned the other martial arts styles such as Kuk Sool Won.
By the way Benforman I looked into it the picture you provided. It is not what you think it is. It is actually a photograph of Sa'ad Ibn Abdul(r) Rahman Al-Saud, brother of Ibn Saud, with his hair in ringlets which were called 'Dalik'.--EhavEliyahu 16:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ehav, you may have a point, I certainly have no proof that the picture isn't what it claims to be, although I would point out that the link I posted to the image of Ibn Saud comes from the Royal Geographic Society, it says it was taken by Captain W.I. Shakespeare in 1911 so I would be surprised if that wasn't who it said it was. That said your point about the Abir photo being him or not is totally valid, it was just my opinion.
Regarding the Abir style, it is certainly impressive, and I am not doubting Sofer's skill, the youtube videos prove that. In fact I have been interested in Abir since I read about it on the shoferinstitute Yemenite list many months ago. I am just not convinced yet by the story, as I know you aren't given your posts on other websites. I have been trying to research the story and have found interviews from several years ago online with Yehoshua Sofer where big parts of his story are missed out. Using google you can look for Yehoshua Sofer Jamaica and Nigel haAdmor for more information. Again I stress I am not questioning his skill or indeed his knowledge of Torah, but if the Abir story isn't true I don't see why he should need to embelish his story which is fascinating and note worthy in itself, and of course his martial skills which speak for themselves. At the end of the day I suppose I am an internet cynic, and this is only my opinion.
For more information on Jeiwsh warriors I would also recomend: The Itinerary of Benjamin of Tudela, Travels in the Middles Ages. I can't find the quote at the moment but there is a section on Jewish Warriors. It is briefly described here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1793&letter=A

--Benforman 20:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Greetings Benforman. I understand about being skeptical about Abir, I was also based on the same articles. I was very skeptical when I first heard about it, because the web-sites and the articles weren't clear. It wasn't until I actually contacted some Teimanim in Israel about it and I also contacted Grandmaster Sofer concerning proof that I changed my mind about it. As mentioned before I received letters from a Yemenite Rabbi and an Ashkenazi Rabbi who state that Abir is ancient and authentic. In terms of the article, it only reflects what is on the web-site which Grandmaster Sofer states is not completely accurate. Grandmaster Sofer mentioned to me that he is working on getting his webstie corrected.
In terms of the picture I looked on the site you provided and it said that the picture was of Sa'ad Ibn Abdul(r) Rahman Al-Saud, brother of Ibn Saud, with his hair in ringlets which were called 'Dalik' (Those were the exact words from the http://www.toursaudiarabia.com/ibn-saud.html under the 1911 title). The 1910 photo has a picture of Ibn-Saud sitting on the left side. As you can see he doens't look anything like the photo on the Abir article. Also, another way to tell is that for Ibn Saud to be in a photo standing behind King Abdullah would imply that he is the servant of Abdullah. In the fashion of the Middle Eastern culture since Ibn-Saud comes from a royal family, he would be sitting next to Abdullah if he were posing with him for a picture.
There were some people I know in Israel who said Abir was not authentic because Aluf Abir, Mori Yehoshua Sofer was into Reggea and he did Reggea. Yet, I found out not long ago that Shaolin Fighting Monk Shi Yan-Ming (best known the the Shaolin Iron Body or Iron Shirt techniques) who teaches Shaolin Kung-Fu in downtonw NY is into rap music (specifically he has been working with Wu-Tang Clan on one of their records).--EhavEliyahu 01:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Proofs for Abir

Hi Ehav, for what it's worth (non-Jewish) Yemenis I know have heard the stories of a Jewish fighting style and Jewish warriors also. I knew that Wu-Tang were into Shaolin, I didn't know that Shaolin were into Wu-Tang - great post.87.113.25.165 07:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Greetings. Yes, I was checking out a forum from 2005 where a number of martial artist were criticizing Abir, but there was an Arab man who posted a number of times that Abir was authentic and that a number of Arabs knew of it and it was well respected by them. He specifically knew of the Sofer/Abir family and talked highly of them and their techniques. He mentioned that he hoped that no Jews would ever take it since he prefered them not to know it (for political and stratigic reasons).
Also, on the subject of Shaolin Monk Shi Yan-Ming and his interest in rap. There was a program I was watching where the RZA from the Wu-Tang Clan went to the Shaolin Kung Fu school here in New York and he met Monk Shi Yan-Ming. They became friends, and there was a segment in the program where they showed the RZA with Monk Shi Yan-Ming in the recording studio working on a Wu-Tang Clan album. Monk Shi Yan-Ming mentioned that there were people who criticized him for his interest in hip-hop and he stated that he did not see any contradiction in it. It was interesting.--EhavEliyahu 11:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tags

I didn't add them but can see why they were added, try reading WP:NPOV, about phrasing things neutrally. Secitons of this read like an advert to recruit for and promote the art, rather than dispassionately reporting facts. I removed the title as it is normal not to include them repeatedly. --Nate1481(t/c) 15:41, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I have done some major rewording to that technique sections. I think that should address the NPOV issues. Let me know.--EhavEliyahu 18:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Great improvements! The only and last NPOV issue I see is the first paragraph under "Modern System": "...expertise in various aspects of "cold" combat that few come close to matching." Do something about this and feel free to take the "new release" tag down. Also, the Sofer's name should not be preceded by "Grandmaster"; you can say "Sofer is the Grandmaster of...", but you can't refer to him as "Grandmaster Sofer". After that the article is a very solid B-Class article. If you're interested in improving it further, check out WP:GA?. It still needs some general manual of style-related cleanup, but in particular, the article spends considerable space reviewing the history of Jewish warriors, without specifically stating the relevance of that information. Is the article trying to say that all of the those warriors practiced Abir? This is unclear at present. It would also be helpful to have information regarding the actual development of Abir (which from the pictures of its modern practice, appears to strongly resemble Chinese martial arts), or discussion of how the information is lost or disputed (if such information does not exist or is disputed). Bradford44 20:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I will work on the last NPOV for now, and work on the rest later. The connection between the ancient Abir information and the modern system is that they are both connected and that some of the ancient form was passed down in certain Jewish communities. One of the biggest arguments about the article and Abir in general was that some people believe that there was no evidence of a Jewish martial art that ever existed. According to the Abir information FAQ the sources like the Sefer Ha-Yashar mention the Qesheth aspect of Abir that had been passed down through Jewish communities in North African, Asia and Arabia. I haven't seen any information that disputes, with evidence, that Jews in Arabia, Asia, and Africa didn't pass down any form of martial arts techniques. I have seen people claim that the information didn't exist and when provided with the info in the beginning of the article I have seen any refutations. I think the main basis is that Abir, in terms of some of its look, is not completely different than other martial arts. One of of the videos listed at the bottom of the article there is a video Grandmaster Sofer showing the difference between a certain Abir technique and some of the Japanese martial arts. The videos do more justice for the techniques than the pictures. Besides there are only so many ways that a body can move. I would also say that the categorization of the moves is different the Chinese martial arts. In fact, there are elements of Abir that look similar to Silat Mumbai.--EhavEliyahu 00:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I almost forget the section on the Banu Abir mentions that the Sofer family claims to have partial come from Habban where the Jews there were known for their fighting prowess. I have two letters provided by two Rabbis in Israel who say that Abir is ancient was practiced by various middle Eastern Jews. I will post them as images.--EhavEliyahu 00:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Far, far better, it's a lot easier for someone who knows the subject to rewrite things. A skim looks good will have a closer look later, Thanks --Nate1481(t/c) 09:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Wikisource would be the place for images of the letters --Nate1481(t/c) 09:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Auto review

This tool automatically reviews the article for areas of interest it's not far of b-class now this may help to improve it to a Good Article:

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Nate1481(t/c) 15:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review

Hi EhavEliyahu, I noticed that you placed a "peer review" tag at the top of the talk page, but you didn't go through with creating the response page or listing the article at Wikipedia:Peer review. Have you simply not gotten to it yet, or would you like some assistance? If you haven't done this before, the instructions for how to submit for peer review are right there at WP:PR. Bradford44 18:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey. I am just getting started. I am doing some moving, but I at least want to start getting the ball rolling. As I have more time I will go through the entire procedure. Thanks.--EhavEliyahu 19:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
No problem, I'll stand back and let you have at it. :) Bradford44 05:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
If you see any other areas you think could be improved let me know. I am still trying to make things are clear as possible.--EhavEliyahu 11:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Peer review tag has been removed till a later date.Peter Rehse 02:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russian and Serbian article

I hope, you are not ashamed of the Russian and Serbian articles about this theme. Because the English article was changed from Abir to Yehoshua Sofer I didn't consider as a reason to remove the link to the Russian and Serbian article. I look this story very interesting. The German article soon arrives:) --Carski, 29. december, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.199.129 (talk) 12:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)