Talk:Ye Xian

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[edit] AT-number system

There were scholars and there is a classification system for fairy tales --> Check out AT-number system at Antti Aarne: the Aarne-Thompson system catalogues some 2500 basic plots from which, for countless generations, European and Near Eastern storytellers have built their tales. As Europeans and Near-Easterners travelled to the New World, the Far East, Africa, and other distant places, their tales migrated as well, often flourishing in their new environments. Hence, the Aarne-Thompson system encompasses tales found around the world.
Cinderella is classified as 510A (see Cinderella), so is Rhodopis and Ye Xian. Rhodopis is recognized as older than Ye Xian. Hence, Windling's comment is unqualified and misinformed, and should honestly not be included in an encyclopedia at all. That means you should stop editing the article. Regards Gun Powder Ma 15:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Where does it mentioned about the connections on Ye Xian and Rhodopis in the quote right here? Please provided your sources instead of doing your Original research, if there's no mention of any relationship, then both must had written independently. Also your next revision doesn't seem to be pretty much encyclopedic. Do make a changes and back up your sources. And even you does have the sources to prove the connection that does not meant I should stop editing the article right here. Eiorgiomugini 15:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if we can't find mention of a relationship, it does not prove that they are independant. They may have both been drawn from a common source, or one might be the source for the other.

Alas for Gun Powder Ma's claims, there is no reason to believe that the Egyptian one is the source for the Chinese one merely because it was written down first. The tale could have traveled from China to Egypt. That the written version is older is no evidence; oral versions of fairy tales show every sign of long predating the written ones. Goldfritha 23:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

"Actually, if we can't find mention of a relationship, it does not prove that they are independant. They may have both been drawn from a common source, or one might be the source for the other."You really needs to back those up seriously, by commentaries I can add alot more than that on every articles next to a sourced paragraph, how about I added another piece of WP:OR of my own on his revision. Or otherwise why do you think people tired so hard to find a source. Wiki is not a soapbox of truth, you might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views. If there is no mention of a relationship from scholarship, we leave it, not by obstinacy on connecting them based upon WP:OR, and even both stories itself varying different from each other. "so is Rhodopis and Ye Xian" Where? Do you have specific sources for both as Aarne 510A? It doesn't matter whether is type 510A or not as there's alot 510A, nor how many had recognized this antiquated classification besides Aarne. There's no connections between Ye Xian and Rhodopis made mentions by any scholars, even if there do there must be more connections in five stories or more, and already we had "one of the oldest" on the opening, or perhaps we should removed the "oldest" and simply as "one of the variant", I don't see why is it contradicting right here. I'm sorry, but that piece of information has to go, the relationship between Ye Xian and Cinderella of Charles or whatever are based upon similarity conducts by present scholarship, which is why it remained as two separated articles, same goes to Rhodopis. The reason for removal about Rhodopis in the article was as simply because got had nothing to do with the article nor its origin itself at all. Not if Duan or Li himself had drawn their story from the Egyptian one, nor had their ground for it, but so far we had no mention from his verse nor any modern scholars had conducted that. If anything, the mention of "oldest variants" should had moved to the article Cinderella. I remembered there's an older Chūjō-hime on the wikipedia, so why not melt all them into here if we insisted on including Rhodopis here. According to this piece of source [1] by dear prof derk right here there are more than just one analogs. Eiorgiomugini 17:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for an "ultimate" origin article on AT510

You are probably right, there's a common origin around the world, so why don't just instead create an article "AT510A Cinderella" or "Out of XXX (Cinderella story)" for a fundamental to any understanding of origin about Cinderlla for the readers and justify them with sources. Instead of cut and paste about the oldest variants into each story article itself. How many of them are you gonna include about Rhodopis to all 510A wiki links. I believe we all have our bad day. So please be civility when come to discussion. About AT, I do however, don't mind a mention of "type 510A" of Aarne on the article with sourced citation by all means. Regards Eiorgiomugini 17:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footbinding and Ye Xian

I cann't see the link between footbinding and Ye Xian.The practice of footbinding start in 11th centuary,and the story of Ye Xian is older.I delete the speculative links between the Ye Xian and footbinding.--Ksyrie 21:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

References were provided. You can not merely delete referenced information because you can't see the link yourself. (That would be WP:OR) Goldfritha 00:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I have read this reference,but it said thatThis, remember, is a culture in which tiny feet were then so highly prized that the brutal art of footbinding was practiced on highborn women.,and from the phrase the relation couldn't be deduced.--Ksyrie 16:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Ksyrie's assessment. The quote merely explains to a western audience why small feet might be prized. It does not suggest that the story is in any way connected to the history of footbinding in China. The line does not fit in the opening paragraph of the article. It could be appropriate in a section dedicated to the cultural context of the story. Taranah 18:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Then you can create such a section and move it there.

BTW, the reference also contained information about the rest of the lede, so it belongs there, too. Goldfritha 23:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• • • • • The reference said chinese culture appreciated the footbinding,but it doesn't provide the links between Ye Xian and footbinding.--Ksyrie 00:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I want to preface my comments by saying that I strongly support the collaborative nature of wikipedia and present my opinions in a spirit of open dialogue. I have a great deal of respect for Goldfritha's expertise and numerous valuable contributions to this and many other articles. Nevertheless, the line about footbinding has irked me for some time and it has been on my list of things to tackle. I'm glad that Ksyrie was bolder than I.

I agree that the referenced article is solid and it should definitely be listed at the end of the article. If other information needs footnoting to it, then that's good too. In the original source article, however, the bit about footbinding was a parenthetical aside — not the author's primary point. It was a minor explanatory note. The introduction to this article should contain the most important information about the subject. A bit of trivia about footbinding is not important enough to be included. Furthermore, there are tens of thousands of literary documents that reflect the aesthetic tastes of this period of Chinese history, including the importance of small feet. The Ye Xian story is in no way exceptional in this regard. It is simply not a distinguishing feature of the story. Taranah 06:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

There's tens of thousands of article about the footbinding aesthetic taste while the story for Ye Xian didnt tell anyway the footbinding aesthetic taste.--Ksyrie 15:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)