Talk:Yazata

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This article is supported by WikiProject Zoroastrianism, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Zoroastrianism-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
  The subject of this article is considered to be of Top importance to Zoroastrianism.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents

[edit] Yazatas: To do

Legend in the following list:

  • Av:=Avestan name, MP:middle Persian/Pahlavi, NP:modern Persian
  • (A)=Amesha Spenta, (*)=Star/Astronomical Yazata, (G)=Gah Yazata

Some of the Yazatas already have entries, but are only described as month names of the Iranian calendar. Others that might appear "done", are usually redirects to articles on other topics.

  • (M) Av:Manthra Spenta,MP:Mahraspand,NP:(Mehr-)Esfand
  • (M) Av:Nairyosangha,MP:Neryosang
  • (*) ??:Paoiryaenis
  • (F) Av:Parendi
  • (*) Av:Paurwanya,MP:Parvin
  • (M) Av:Raman,MP:Ram
  • (G) Av:Rapithwin
  • (F) ??:Rasanstat
  • (M) Av:Rashnu,MP:Rashn (#RRashnu)
  • (F) ??:Rata
  • (*) ??:Satavaesa [Fomalhaut?]
  • (*) Av:Tishtryaeinis [Canis Minor]
  • (*) Av:Upapaoiri,Upa-paoiri [Arietis?]
  • (G) Av:Ushah,Ushahin
  • (G) Av:Uzerin
  • (M) Av:Visya,Visya-Savanghi
  • (A) Av:Vohu Manah,MP:Vahman,Bahman
  • (M) Av:Zantuma

[edit] Yazatas: Done

Note that some of the Yazata have more than one article.

is this related to Homa (mythology)/Huma (mythology) ??

[edit] Daevas: To do and done

Daevas and demons: evil forces against whom Ahura Mazda and his followers contend. Note: Daeva redirects to Div (Persian mythology), which should perhaps be renamed for consistancy with Ahura.

To do
  • Agas
  • Aka Manah
  • Apaosa
  • Asto Vidatu
  • Druj
  • Gandarewa
  • Indar
  • Nanghaithya
  • Saurva
 Done

[edit] Proposed Merger

In principle fine, but ...

  1. IMO, we need some place where all the four terms (Yazata, Amesha Spenta, Daevas, Ahuras) could in simple terms be explained. An an umbrella article for the casually-interested to come to first, and something that could be included as a (sub-)category portal, like you've now done with Yazata.
  2. I used "angelology" instead of "angels" so that the article doesn't get flamed for giving the angels too much "manifest" (as opposed to the "conceptual") characteristica. See criticism of the Amesha Spenta and other beings described at the end of the Amesha Spenta and Ahura Mazda articles, in particular the reference to Haug's theory.
  3. Although in specific-use, the Amesha Spenta could be counted as Yazatas, and in general-use the two are (also) synonymous, in my head I see the Yazata as the angels, and the Amesha Spenta as the archangels.
  4. Yazata as a pre-Zoroastrian term, perhaps included the Daevas too. But, I suppose that could be noted in Yazata (is already in Amesha Spenta).
  5. Yazata is not limited to Zoroastrianism. I know Manichaeism has them too, and they may be a concept in other religions as well. That could get problematic if divinities from different religions have the same name, eg Manichaen "Mithra" == Maitreya.
-- Fullstop

[edit] Naming conventions

Can we please establish some naming conventions with respect to the individual Yazata and other super-categories? That is, either Avestan, or Persian, but not a mix of the two.

My thoughts on the subject are as follows:

  • For super-categories (Yazata, Ahura, Amesha Spenta, Daeva), use the Avestan language terms, as these articles (with the exception of Div) already use the Avestan.
  • For the individual Yazatas, which are predominantly (the vast majority) under their Persian names, stay with the persian names. The upside of this is also that there are so many variations of the Persian names, that name collisions can be avoided altogether. Also, readers will usually only know the Persian names.

-- Fullstop 11:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Zoroastrianism, the guideline is offered that "Avestan should be used for all Zoroastrian articles". RandomCritic 16:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, well. So, what would "Zoroastrianism" be in Avestan? :) But, as you said, 'for what it's worth'. I'm not exactly sure whats meant with that statement anyway. Perhaps "as they appear in the translation 'X' of Avesta fragment 'Y'". Zoroastrianism specific terms or all terms?

  • Seriously though, if we stick to Avestan terms for the Yazatas, we'll run into conflicts with Hinduism. Moreover, the Avestan names (of the Yazatas) are unfamiliar to the vast majority (do you know the Avestan name for Behram/Bahram/Baehram without looking?). Under 'vast majority', I even include Zoroastrians since middle Persian names are the ones used in the Siroza and in the titles of the Yashts. Persian mythology afficionados will of course only be familiar with the MP/NP names.
  • Also, the middle Persian names provide the most flexibility with naming due to ambiguity in Book Pahlavi. That would allow articles (that would otherwise have a name collision) to be listed without the need for a parenthesized qualifier, and with a otheruses lead on the common name.
  • Of the names in listing above, the only middle Persian Yazata name which collides with an existing article and where I can't think of a reasonable alternative that would avoid the use of a parenthesized qualifier is Adar, which is listed in Encyclopedia Iranica as Ādur (which, though typographically sane, most people would probably pronounce 'Aadoor').

-- Fullstop 09:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It's quite difficult.. which names are more in use today? --K a s h Talk | email 09:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that depends, by whom? :)

  • In general, I've determined that, at least for the "top" 33, the (middle) Persian names are prevalent (with one exception, see below). The "top" 33 are those with a Yasht and/or have a Zoroastrian calendar day dedicated to them (the _title_ of the Yasht/Siroza section being the critical factor). These 33 are listed at Zoroastrian angelology. See also Siroza 1 and Category:Months of the Iranian calendar.
  • Exception to the above: On Wikipedia (and by Boyce and in Encyclopedia Iranica), "Haoma" has greater currency than "Hom", even though the latter is used in the title of the Hom Yasht. But like I said, this is an exception. google site:avesta.org: Haoma:103 hits, Hom:58 hits
  • For the other 21 in the lists above: well, I don't know. They aren't common anyway. A quick google for Bhaga/Baga at site:avesta.org reveals 2/10 hits respectively. For comparison, #33 the top 33: Apam Napat/Napat Apam/Berezant/Burz/Barzo: 19/2/3/8/2 hits, and the "lowest" of the calendricals: Zam+Zamyad:36+16 hits.
Back to the question "by whom": I've determined that in Zoroastrian and academic usage, middle Persian names are prevalent as far as the top-33 Yazatas are concerned. But Yazata names that would be prevalent elsewhere, eg in Persian mythology, also need to be considered.

-- Fullstop 14:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
ps: Off-topic: For non-Yazata Zoroastrian terms, well, the google test mentioned above appears to be a reasonable guide.