Talk:Yasukuni Shrine/Archive 1
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Recent Edits
I changed the entry to reflect that the shrine also includes some civilians (for example, a third of the 14 controversial spirits were not military). The shrine also includes a boatload of children - literally.
I also adjested the history a bit.
Finally, I edited the comment about SDF members being enshrined. According to an interview I had with the Vice-Chief Priest at the shrine as well as head of training with the JMSDF (Captain), this is not true. The court case in Yamaguchi-ken referred to a regional shrine, not Yasukuni.
WDSTURGEON
Controversy
"This controversy exploded openly in 1978, when the remains of 1,068 convicted war criminals were secretly moved there. Among these were 14 notorious Class A war criminals, including Hideki Tojo."
Firstly, enshrining involve no remains. All you need is names to be written down and kept in the shrine. Secondly, POW executed for war crimes being enshrined was never been secret. And also I should add that it was not a political issue. The controversy errupted when it was revealed that A class war criminal such as the prime minster Tojo who did not engaged in combat were enshried in secret as "Showa Martyer". FWBOarticle 23:14, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Tojo may not have been on the front line himself doing the stabbing, shooting each day. Yet I would not put it past him to have engaged in some recreational raping and beheading. That man was such a coward he shot himself as the Allies appraoch his house and thevaliant American Army dressed his wound. And then Tojo was made to go through three years of trial before was hanged. THAT IS N HISTORIXCAL FACT. HIS SUICIDE ATTAMPT FAILE. OH THE GREAT WARRIOR. he had the same immoral nature that Hitler had.I do not care what Tojo's daughter today says. Tojo is responsible for the Rape of Nanjing , the Bombing of Pearl of Pearl Harbor and everything else evil thathe Japanese personally chose to do.My father can barely hear now because of the guns he hade to listen to during World War 2's Pacific War, when he was part of the FREEINGof countries from Japanese fascism. And those countries were given their right to rule as they wanted to, upon beiing freed. I have read many books about this and I hav been in many Asian countries. I go back to visit America. I am in Asiaright nw. Germans can admit a mistake. Many intelligent Japanese can also admit a mistake. It is ashame there is an element of Japanese that are pulling their country down just because Japan is experiencing bad economic times. It was bad economic times that ,ade Japan turn to fascism in the first place, sad, sad, sad.
Michael Dupuit, Ph.D., Economist
- I've seen conflicting information on this: the souls of all of Japan's war dead (good, bad and indifferent) are definitely enshrined on paper, but some sources also appear to claim that the physical
bonesremains of infamous class A guys are also there. Anybody have an authoritative source? Jpatokal 11:25, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
-
- Japanese practice is cremation not burial.
-
-
- Some bones are left over after cremation, as anybody who has been to a Japanese funeral will know... <squick> Jpatokal 05:37, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, but I'm not so sure that shinto enshrining involve body parts. The reason (excuse) for including executed war criminals (POW) was that they all turned up in war dead registery. So Yasukuni copied all of their name in their book and kept it in alter. I'm not sure what is shinto's view about body part. For what I know, death would be regarded as filth in shinto but Yasukuni may be different due to it's uniquely political origin. Anyway, if it is true, I would be news to me. Feel free to include it if you can find credible reference. The original article implied that all of 1008 executed war criminal's boy parts are kept, which can't be true. FWBOarticle 22:37, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- That IS a political issue IMO, because Japanese goverment decided that those war criminals are innocent (wrongly accused) before their name tags were put into the shrine. -miorea
- Yes, but I'm not so sure that shinto enshrining involve body parts. The reason (excuse) for including executed war criminals (POW) was that they all turned up in war dead registery. So Yasukuni copied all of their name in their book and kept it in alter. I'm not sure what is shinto's view about body part. For what I know, death would be regarded as filth in shinto but Yasukuni may be different due to it's uniquely political origin. Anyway, if it is true, I would be news to me. Feel free to include it if you can find credible reference. The original article implied that all of 1008 executed war criminal's boy parts are kept, which can't be true. FWBOarticle 22:37, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Some bones are left over after cremation, as anybody who has been to a Japanese funeral will know... <squick> Jpatokal 05:37, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
-
Restoring the government ownership of Yasukuni is not on political agenda. The debate is about appropriateness of government official to pay visit to religious institution. Also, I have clarify that it was act of donation of public fund which was deemed unconstitutional.
I have changed the writing 'Court ruled'. If you check the Fukuoka court's verdict, you can understand that 'unconstitutional' is not the statement as a court, but just a personal opinion of the judge, and not related to the case itself. Juristically, the judge's opinion means nothing. Poo-T 11 Aug 2004
German controversy
Paragraph removed:
- A similar controversy occured in Germany, where US President Ronald Reagan and German Chancellor Helmut Kohl drew criticism from Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel and others in 1985 when they attended a wreath-laying ceremony at the Bitburg cemetery, gravesite of 2,000 German soldiers, including 49 Nazi members of Hitlers SS. Similiar visits to any of the many decentralized Nazi cemeteries have not been repeated since, and in 2003 a private campaign of the German Federation of Expellees to create a centralized religious shrine honoring Nazi war criminals, the Centre Against Expulsions, failed to get the backing of the government.
If this is made into its own article then maybe it deserves a "See also", but as it stands it's pretty irrelevant. Jpatokal 14:36, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This removed paragraph actually points to a very interesting contrast between Japanese and German attitutes toward their respective military history. Just try and imagine the world reaction, if:
German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder were to visit a shrine honoring Adolf Hitler and other Nazi war criminals.
NPOV?
The article as it stands now has (IMHO) a fair bit of anti-Japanese slant, but the esteemed Mr. 69.193.248.4's edits went a bit overboard in correcting them. More measured attempts would be welcome. Jpatokal 07:41, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
IMHO the last iteration of the topic edited by Jpatokal is well-written and a major improvement on previous articles. I see that 69.193.248.4's complete removal of the 'controversy' section is over the top - to deny that the shrine is controversial is to close to your eyes to the facts. On a linked issue, I think that 69.19.248.4 should get him or herself a user name if he/she would like to make large scale edits to this page - I think this would be the most polite and effective way to proceed if we are to agree how we can improve the Yasukuni Shrine page. I have reinstated the 'controversy' section in Jpatokal's last edit. Nick Fraser 12:38, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Shrine Visits
You have mentioned the shrine visits, but not the reasons. Many people visit the shrine as an act of remembrance, not an act of reverence. Prime Minister Koizumi has publicly stated that he visits the Shrine so that there will be no more wars.
- then why don't they remove the war criminals to another place? after that they can visit it whenever they want to and no neighbours would protest anymore. if germany worshiped hitler among millions of war dead, how would israel and the whole europe react? no less furious than korea and china right now i suppose. cultural differences doesn't necessarily say you are justified to hurt your neighbours, especially when the very ones you're worshipping killed millions of their grandfathers.--Wooddoo-eng 09:16, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-
- I’m not sure who you mean by “they”, but if you are talking about public officials, the answer is simple: they can’t. Remember, Yasukuni Shrine is now a purely private organization. As an independent religious institution, It has a complete discretion to decide what it enshrines. Removing the war criminals from Yasukini Shrine is clearly beyond the government's reach. No matter how foreign countries demand to do so, it’s simply impossible. If the Japanese government should ask (or suggest) Yasukuni Shrine to change its kami, it is undoubtedly unconstitutional. After all, the freedom of religion is constitutionally protected in Japan, unlike some authoritarian countries. --World3 22 Apr 2005
-
-
- Those who voice out the removal of war criminals from the shrine is not thinking rationally, really, because the dead needs a resting place. However, visiting the shrine from the living is another matter. No one is going to disagree if you visit the shrine when you have some relatives resting in it, but for the others? It depends. In neighbouring countries like Korea and China, no one is oppose to the rememberance of the dead, what they oppose is, the choice to visit Yasukuni Shrine, intead of others. There's one and only one major difference of Yasukuni Shrine from the others: The Class-A war criminals inside. If one only want to visit the grave(s) of Japanese troops(including those from World War II) as an act of rememberance, there are numberous other shrines which can serves the function. Why choose Yasukuni Shrine? Why not the others? Does that mean the worshipping of those Class-A criminals? --Hunter 12:06, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
- They choose to visit Yasukuni Shrine because that is the only choice. There is no such place as “the others.” If someone is going to offer prayer for those who died for the war, Yasukuni is the only place to go. The historical evaluation of the war is one thing. Expressing one’s respect for the soldiers is another. In US, different people have different opinions on Vietnam War, but no one is against expressing their respect for the soldiers who died for it. The same logic should apply to the case in Japan. Some people suggest that the Japanese government should establish a secular government institution for the remembrance of the war dead. Personally I think it would be better. However, this idea is extremely unpopular in Japan. It is criticized not only from the right wing but also from the left wing. So currently and at lease in the near future, Yasukuni is the only place Japanese people can express their respect for the soldiers. They go to Yasukini not to worship the Class-A guys. They go to express their respect for a lot of nameless soldiers who lost their life for the war. --World3 23 Apr 2005
-
-
Wrong. The Yasukuni shrine is not the only place you can pay respect to the war dead. Recently, the Emperor of Japan went to the battelefield of Saipan to pay his respects to the soldiers who died on both sides of the war. Koizumi should do the same.
It's exchanges like these that make me wonder whether it's possible to write an unbiased account of Yasukuni shrine. Both the original anonymous post that ingenuously states that 'Prime Minister Koizumi has publicly stated that he visits the Shrine so that there will be no more wars' (given the huge controversy his visits stir up in countries invaded by Japan, it's hard to see how Koizumi can say this with a straight face) and Wooddoo-eng's response, which takes a completely partisan attitude (do you think the Japanese wouldn't have moved the war criminals earlier if it was politically possible?) demonstrate the futility of trying to talk rationally about the issue.
Bathrobe 31 Mar 2005
- For your info:
- Kadzuwo 15:59, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
What about prime ministeral visits before 1979? Before then, prime ministeral visits were a domestic issue and harsly debated if I remember correctly.
Date of enshrining
Based on the Japanese version, the Class A guys were given the Martyrs of Showa title in 1978 and this became public knowledge in 1979. I've updated the article accordingly. Jpatokal 02:26, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Koreans and Taiwanese
According to the Japanese Wikipedia article on Yasukuni Shrine, 日本のためにともに戦った台湾・韓国人元軍人軍属も多数祀(まつ)られている。
In the English version, it says: "it also serves to honor soldiers born in colonized Korea and Taiwan (Korean and Taiwanese soldiers fought and died for Japan are not enshrined."
Which is correct?
- My guess is that they mean Japanese citizens born to Japanese parents in Korea and Taiwan are enshrined, but native Koreans and Taiwanese who served in the Imperial armed forces are not. I'm not an expert on the subject though. --Julian Grybowski 17:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
something not true
To date, China has been the most vocal critic of the shrine, but because the issue of Yasukuni is heavily tied to Chinese politics and viewed through a ‘filtered media’, most people in China are unaware that the shrine existed prior to World War II, or that it also serves to honor soldiers born in colonized Korea and Taiwan (Korean and Taiwanese soldiers fought and died for Japan are not enshrined).
i don't know who wrote this but it's partly not true. i'm from beijing, and i know (at least more than the one who wrote this) most people in China are aware that the shrine also serves to honor the war-dead. the chinese people are simply furious because the war criminals are worshipped there too. no one would have any complaints anymore with the visits if they remove the criminals to another place. just because the communists controll china's media doesn't mean japan's worshipping the murderers and whitewashing their history textbooks is justifiable. this is simply illogical. please make some changes to this part. he/she who wrote this didn't provide any proof that the chinese people really don't know something about the shrine. it's just his/her assumption.--Wooddoo-eng 09:11, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Ever been to one of those Buddhist temples where they wish blessings and enlightenment for every sentient creature? That includes Hitler, Mao and Hirohito too. I think the special Martyrs of Showa designation for the war criminals is much more questionable... Jpatokal 10:17, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-
- There are many war memorials all over Asia. Why is only the Yasukuni that comes under so much fire? There must be a reason and rationale behind. Please understand it before throwing about laughable comments. --Plastictv 01:22, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I originally deleted the disputed statement. I then came across a Chinese friend who earnestly felt that the Japanese PM should not visit a shrine devoted to war criminals. I told him that it was not devoted to war criminals, most are common soldiers. He had never heard this, despite obviously being acquainted with the issue from the Chinese media. I reinstated the statement because it seems to be true, to some extent, at least. The concept that this is 'something not true' is simply incorrect. However, someone without a user name immediately deleted the reference. The article now has a clear anti-Japanese bias. This may be satisfactory in the view of many Chinese (and Koreans), but it is not satisfactory from a POV viewpoint.
- The Chinese media DO say the shrine also worship the war-dead for heaven's sake! "Something not true" means "most people in China don't know this " is wrong. The problem focuses on the word "MOST." --Wooddoo-eng 10:33, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
TALKING about "filtered media". Look at this Japanese example: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1736208,00.html But Mr Koizumi's public statement of regret today stopped short of offering the unambiguous apology demanded by China and British POW groups. And an edited version of the statement, issued for use inside Japan, cut out still more of the contrite language. ...Mr Koizumi's public statement, which was subsequently edited for domestic audiences, echoed the form of words used by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama to mark the 50th anniversary of the surrender.
Kanji: 国 vs 國
The esteemed 211.57.235.249 is, for once, correct: the name of the shrine is 靖國神社. 国 is indeed the modern kanji for "land/country", but 國 is one of the designated kanji allowed in names. Jpatokal 02:36, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Then why is the Japanese article titled 靖国神社? A Google search of 靖國神社 revealed primarily Chinese webpages. I tried accessing the site's official site but it appears to be down/unresponsive. --Feitclub 04:19, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
-
- According to Google's cache [1] the official site uses 靖國神社, and searching for that string gets me only Japanese sites. 靖国神社 is not "wrong", but in my opinion it's less correct...
-
- I've asked for opinions on the Japanese talk page. Jpatokal 08:06, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I read that, and I see responses but I don't know enough Japanese to understand them ^_^ --Feitclub 20:54, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
- I've asked for opinions on the Japanese talk page. Jpatokal 08:06, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
正確に言えば、どちらも正しくないように思えます。公式には「靖」の字も、PCでは一般的に表記できない旧字が用いられているからです。また、靖国神社の公式サイト内でも、本文の記述は「靖国神社」で統一されており、ウィキペディアの記述的には「国」であっても誤りではないと思われます。--Tukasa ryo 2005年4月6日 (水) 09:53 (UTC)
- My attempt at a translation: "Frankly I think neither is correct. The 「靖」character of the official name can not be displayed correctly on many browsers. In addition, the 「国」character is also used in the content of the official site, so for the Wikipedia I do not think that using 「国」is incorrect." Jpatokal 02:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps the best compromise would be list both forms? Jpatokal 02:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-
- Sounds good so long as someone offers an explanation. I just tried to explain the whole thing to a Japanese friend of mine and he had no idea what I was talking about. He only knows the 国 spelling. --Feitclub 02:31, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
-
-
- "國" is kyuji (旧字), or old character that was used before 1949. "国" is the modern simplified version of it. Yasukuni was established much earlier than 1949 and so were written "靖國" back then. But since the government introduced the new sets of kanji they have been written "靖国" in most Japanese documents. Japanese dictionary entry of the shrine also is "靖国神社." Hermeneus 10:09, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Excellent information, thanks so much for your help. I will integrate this into the article for clarity. --feitclub 20:11, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
- "國" is kyuji (旧字), or old character that was used before 1949. "国" is the modern simplified version of it. Yasukuni was established much earlier than 1949 and so were written "靖國" back then. But since the government introduced the new sets of kanji they have been written "靖国" in most Japanese documents. Japanese dictionary entry of the shrine also is "靖国神社." Hermeneus 10:09, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-
Just a quick note, I've been to the shrine a number of times, and checking my photos, Hermeneus is indeed correct.
Another quick cultural note. A heap of Japanese shrines use the old kanji (also, written from right to left, another anachronism) on the name plates of their torii or inside the shrines, but they are usually noted with the new kanji on maps or in guide books. So, both versions are right in their own - however, the context of the usage is important. I suppose in longer wiki articles on shrines, the old spelling should be duly noted in the header, and the new kanji used throughout the text. TomorrowTime 02:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Cultural differences
"it is not unknown for a body to be exhumed from the grave to be punished for transgressions during life"
- This was in the article at one point. Can someone explain it, verify it, or put it into context? Thanks, Sam Spade 15:07, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Sino-Japanese War I
Thanks for pointing it out. The first Sino-Japanese War was actually an invasion of Korea *AND* China. The first stage of the war was fought on Korea soil between Japanese army and Chinese army for the control of the Korean political system. After Chinese army was driven out of the Choson peninsula, Japanese army moved on to invade China. The Imperial Japanese Army occupied ShanDong peninsula and LiaoDong penisula after the Japanese navy eliminated the BeiYang fleet of China. During the invasion Japanese army committed the holocast of 18,000 people in Lüshunkou city (often called Port Arthur), leaving only 36 alive to dig graves for the dead.
It is under debate that whether the invasion of China was planned by the Emperor and the cabinet or mainly driven by the generals near the frontline. But whatever it was, no historian would deny that it was an invasion, an unjustified and anti-humanity war fought for nothing but the greediness of human beings. If you look closely to the Kamis enshrined in Yasukuni Jinja, most of them (more than 99%) died in such invasions (all but the first two civil wars). I would argue that this is the very reason why Eastern Asian, particularly Chinese and Korean has been critic about the Yasukuni Jinja. To worship fighters died in such wars make people believe that there's a little more than just patriotism -- as Japanese goverment claims -- in there, which may likely be Militarism.
I like the last sentence of this wikipedia entry "Why keep blaming the dead for the crimes they committed when they were alive?" That's a very positive thinking. However I feel it's unfair for Japanese to only remember the glory past of their nation; and omit all its dirty deeds. --Miorea 21:43, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Controversy
I think because the controversy section speaks of China's objections to the visit in an attempt at objectivism the article should also mention the visit by the Taiwan Solidarity Union and the Peasant Party (Taiwan) to the shrine. (24.124.61.165 03:21, 28 May 2005 (UTC))
State Shinto
Yasukuni is not a traditional Japanese shrine; it was established as part of State Shinto and its original purpose was inextricably tied to that of State Shinto, i.e., Emperor worship (the Emperor as a god) and its whole apparatus. Those who are enshrined here are here under the idea that a soldier who died for the Emperor became a god. With the separation of state and religion after the war, and the Emperor's renunciation of divine status, all this theoretically came to an end, but it could be argued that the shrine cannot be understood without looking at its historical roots. In fact, part of the problem of the shrine is that it seems to represent 'unreconstructed State Shinto' and everything it stands for. The people who are enshrined here are still gods (although, incongruously, the significance of dying for the Emperor was negated when the Emperor renounced his status as a 'living god'). Does anyone feel that the introduction could be slightly rewritten to include some of this historical background? And should the Shintoist beliefs of the priests of the shrine be spelt out (if that is possible), including some indication as to what their beliefs reflect - primitive Shinto? State Shinto? Something else again?
Bathrobe 2 June 2005
There's an interesting article in the journal "Japan Echo", December 2004, on Yasukuni. It discusses the rationale for the founding of the shrine and traditional views that make the shrine meaningful to some.
- Actually, *any* person in Japan (and that includes foreigners) is entitled to being kept in *any* shrine's holy books, to be transferred into godhood after death. This is not unique to Yasukuni, what is unique is the criteria these guys had to meet to make it into the shrine's books, i.e. death in the service of the Emperor-God. A regular shrine will usually only require you to live in the vicinity, i.e. under the "jurisdiction" of the shrine.
- In answer to your question: having to die for the Emperor in order to be able to make it into Yasukuni's books of souls is clearly a State Shinto warping of an older Shinto principle. TomorrowTime 02:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
evasion
"Why keep blaming the dead for the crimes they committed when they were alive?"
It's not the dead China and Korea keep blaming the most, it's the living officials who worship them. This remark by Koizumi is simply trying to distract attention. It's not the existence of these war criminals that makes Japan's neighbours angry. It's the fact that elected Japanese officials worship them that's under fire. When did China and Korea ever criticize ordinary Japanese for visiting the shrine? --Wooddoo-eng 10:43, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
-Think about this analogy if German Chancellor were to say "Why keep blaming Adolf Hitler and other now-dead Nazis for the holocaust they committed when they were alive?"
-It is Japanese government's own doing that leads to the widespread resentment: Read this article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1735665,00.html Former Australian prisoners of war returned to the Thai jungles where they laboured on the notorious Death Railway. “I can accept the fact that the young generation of Japanese is not to blame. It was their fathers and grandfathers. But until they own up, they’ll always be a pariah nation,” said Baden Jones, 84, who was honouring comrades in Kanchanaburi.
A good source of info on Yasukuni's history and doctrine is a series of three articles published a few months ago by Yomiuri entitled "Behind the Torii.' Unfortunately they've taken them offline, but I have some excerpts on my blog here. http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/06/13/yasukuni-behind-the-torii/ Stupidly I didn't save the entire article, forgetting that Yomiuri doesn't have an online archive.
Sourcing
I made a recent edit that attempted to clarify, tighten, and in a number of places adopt a more neutral form of language. Better use of citations and external sources would really help towards the improvement of this article, particularly on a number of the quotes and events mentioned; I left a number of notes to this effect with HTML comments, which hopefully other editors can make use of. — MC MasterChef :: Leave a tip — 11:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
"War shrine" vs. Shinto shrine
Is it necessary, and is it properly neutral, to refer to Yasukuni Shrine as a "war shrine", as opposed to a Shinto shrine, in the lead sentence for this article? It seems to me the latter is more technically accurate, the link more informative, and the terminology less likely to be viewed as potentially inflammatory. The focus of the shrine on war and soldiers is quite clear as it is, from the first paragraph. It has been changed back and forth a number of times, so rather than altering it again, I'm hoping to get some input from editors on this matter. — MC MasterChef :: Leave a tip — 11:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- "Shinto shrine" is indeed more technically accurate. The shrine is not devoted to war itself, but to the soldiers that have served in past wars. Calling the shrine a "war shrine" in the lead sentence is therefore misleading. It is true (of course) that the Yasukuni Shrine is controversial because of its implied support for Japan's actions in previous wars, but the article already covers this controversy well. Colin M. 12:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
But what we call "war memorials" today generally commemorate fallen soldiers in past wars, not war itself. Note in War memorial:
- For most of human history war memorials were erected to commemorate great victories and remembering the dead was a secondary concern. . . . In modern times the intent of the war memorial is not to glorify war, but to honour those who have died, or been injured.
Regardless, I don't think we should use "war shrine" in the lead sentence. According to one point of view--and the name itself--it is a "peace shrine". Of course the other point of view would call that a euphemism; it's two sides of the same coin. However, "war shrine" doesn't have the same currency as "war memorial", and it may be perceived as having different connotations. To call it a "war shrine...dedicated to the spirits of dead Japanese soldiers" is somewhat redundant, and less informative than "Shinto shrine...dedicated to the spirits of dead Japanese soldiers". "War shrine" may be acceptable as newspaper headline shorthand, but we're not working under the same constraints and can afford a more verbose and accurate description. --Dforest 16:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with MC, Colin, and Dforest. "Shinto shrine" is a neutral and well-understood concept. The phrase "war shrine" is ambiguous, probably POV, and as Dforest notes does not have the same currency as the neutral "war memorial." For as controversial as Yasukuni is, I think this article is remarkably NPOV. Let's not ruin that by calling Yasukuni a "war shrine" unless we have an agreed upon, NPOV definition of what the phrase means. CES 16:47, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
More on Sourcing
"Japanese culture, unlike Chinese culture, views one's crimes absolved after death."
I would absolutely love to know where that kernel of pure BS about Japanese culture came from. Go ahead and try to find it in Buddhism, or Buddhism/Taoism/Confucianism influenced Shintoism. None of the above has an "one's crimes automatically absolved after death" clause.
"Japanese Culture" part is BS. However, "Shinto" views one's sin absolved after death is quite correct. One reason is that Shiton doesn't really have clearly defined afterdeath concept. Secondly, to assert Shintoism as a mere synthesis of Buddhism/Taoism/Confucianism is quite off. FWBOarticle
Chinese & Koreans
Is there a breakout that lists the number of Koreans & Chinese honored at the Yasukuni Shrine ?--Woogie10w 02:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Rambling non-NPOV
This paragraph doesn't seem NPOV (or particularly well-written, either) to me:
Another solution which is demanded by leftists (Socialists and Communists) and the Komeito (supported by the Soka Gakkai, a Buddhist group) is to create a separate secular memorial so that the Prime Minister can make official state visits to pay respect to the war dead. Though the proposal is probably the most politically correct one, it is often described as rather farcical. Critics point out that groups representing families of the war dead express no interest in such a memorial, preferring Yasukuni Shrine. Only those who are ideologically committed to demilitarization and the secular constitution of Japan would have any interest in such a site. Furthermore those Socialist, Communist and Komeito members are usually hostile to anything associated with Japanese militarism and are least likely to visit a memorial to pay their respects to the war dead. So the entire demand is farcical and mere political posturing to score ideological points. Critics point out that the proposed site for a secular memorial is deliberately located a great distance from Yasukuni Shrine. The Japanese government conducts yearly secular commemoration services in the Budokan for the families of soldiers killed in World War Two. Afterwards, these families usually make private visits to Yasukuni shrine, which is located only walking distance away from the Budokan. Were the ceremony to be relocated to the proposed memorial site, it would make such visits more difficult. Many see this as a leftist attempt to inconvenience the families and marginalize Yasukuni Shrine.
However, I'm not sure how best to edit it to fit: my first thought was to delete it entirely (most of it doesn't add much) but there are a few parts that would still bear mentioning. -210.54.99.8 06:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I've gone through and tried to make this and a few others less POV in nature; I'd be interested in adding a bit more information and perhaps fleshing it out a bit. Unfortunately, user:Abab at the moment seems deadset on just reverting them without giving reasons or discussion (4 reverts in the last few hours), but I am fairly certain that the language I've put in place is clearly less POV in nature. LactoseTI 18:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Controversy
I don't think this paragraph in "Political impact" section is appropriate. Tens of millions chinese were killed by Japanese during World War II. The protest to the shrine from China should not be interpolated by "Japanese observers", and it is nothing with Communism or the difference between Chinese and Japanese cultures. The pure, bloody fact is Japanese government and lots of japanese is still thinking there is nothing wrong with the war crime they did to the Asia neighbors.
"The government of the People's Republic of China has been the most vocal critic of the shrine and some Japanese observers have suggested that the issue of Yasukuni Shrine is just as heavily tied to China's internal politics as it is to the historical conduct of Japan's military and its perceived remorse for its actions. They state that tolerance on the part of Communist Party of China authorities for large-scale public protests in mainland China against the shrine contrasts strongly with the authority exercised against any kind of domestic political dissent. This has been interpreted as an effort by the party to channel public frustrations away from their rule, and preserve their legitimacy by aligning themselves with popular nationalist sentiments. Many have commented on the cultural difference between Chinese and Japanese cultures. Japanese culture, unlike Chinese culture, views one's crimes absolved after death."
Takeshima
I don't understand why Koizumi is visiting the Yasukuni war shrine. Doesn't he already know that Japan has a really strained relationship with Korea about Dokdo? Good friend100 05:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- I really don't see what your comments about the issue of Takeshima has to do with the Yasukuni shrine. Are you suggesting more about this should be added to the main article body? Komdori 15:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
-
- Just because I asked a question about Dokdo/Takeshima doesn't mean it should be added to the article. The point is, the overall attitude of Japan, they are not sorry. A leader is supposed to be have strong leadership and that leader should make a good example of himself so that his people look up to him. Isn't that true?
-
- It seems you are a little angry, enough to ask on my talk page. But, I am just asking why Koizumi is visiting the war shrine. Of course, there are other famous Japanese generals and leaders... Good friend100 15:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- Not angry at all, just I suspected it was more of a question reflecting political motives than a true desire to discuss improving this article, and so a waste of time. Some of the links available on the article already detail some of the reasons for the visits in addition to some already discussed in the article; read there, and if you think it's insufficient perhaps the article could be expanded? As far as I knew, Koizumi was only the leader of Japan, and so his duties are to them, not to Koreans. Komdori 18:41, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
-
This is a misunderstanding. You and the other user, was it LatoseIT? Just because I bring up the issue about the Dokdo doesn't mean I want to edit the article with Dokdo plastered all over it as propoganda.
Are you Korean or Japanese? Its because your username means "bear" in Korean.Good friend100 00:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
He is Korean. Because he said Dokdo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.50.186.52 (talk) 07:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
NPOV NPOV NPOV
Although victorious against the invading Japanese, Korea suffered great loss of life, looting of cultural artifacts, and significant damage to its economy. -Imjin War
Korean success in Siege of Jinju (1592) had saved this area from further devastation during the first invasion. -Imjin War
Although the executions began under the pretext of eliminating Chinese soldiers disguised as civilians, a large number of innocent men were wrongfully identified as enemy combatants and killed. -Nanjing Massacre
Japan began the invasion of Manchuria, China. Several important battles ensued, such as Shanghai (1932), Great Wall (1933), and some agreements were signed between China and Japan which demilitarized parts of northern China in the proximity of Manchuria. -Nanjing Massacre
The Serbian army fought a defensive battle against the invading Austrian army... -WWI
between Nazi Germany in Western Europe and the invading Allied forces. -Battle of Normandy
officials of the Young Turk Regime were tried and convicted, as charged, for organizing and executing massacres against the Armenian people. -List of War Crimes
German Wehrmacht during its military actions engaged in executions of Polish POWs, bombed hospitals, murdered civilians, shot refugees,executed wounded soldiers. -List of War Crimes
North Vietnamese troops executed 2500 civilians while occupying the city of Hue -List of War Crimes
I added the articles where you can find them. "Executed" or "invasion" are both NPOV words used in different articles. I strongly suggest someone revert the edits. Good friend100 00:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think you missed something--while execution is not a POV word, the fact is they were not all executed. It was an error of fact, not a POV change. In that particular list, I don't see what is lost by having it consistently say conflict. Saying otherwise makes it stand out as being unique in the list when it's not. Komdori 01:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- The edits by Latose IT..he claims that "invade" and "execute" are POV and replaced them with "conflict" or "convicted". The references above show that execute or invade are ok NPOV words used in many articles. That is why I edited it. Good friend100 01:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
- I never claimed "execute" was a POV word. It's simply factually incorrect/misleading to say they were executed. It's explained further down in the article. Komdori is on to what I mean by "invasion"--having it in only some of the list makes it sounds like those events were different somehow. "Invasion" is often a very charged word since usually one side thinks of it/remembers it as an invasion and the other side doesn't. That's pretty much the definition of POV. LactoseTI 01:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-
I reedited the article because the word invasion is not POV. "Invasion" is simply what one country did to another. If "invasion", as you say, is a charged word, then how do explain the above sentences? Good friend100 01:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- What was the point of the edit? Those sentences are not juxtaposed against others saying "conflict." You made the change, I guess, because you felt "invasion" held some "charge" that "conflict" didn't. That "charge" in this situation is what makes it POV. "Conflict" is fine, and loses nothing. What's more, it's clearly non-POV. It may be the case that during your search you found other things that should be changed as well. In this article's list, however, it said "conflict, conflict, conflict, conflict, invade, conflict." Doesn't the "invade" kind of stand out? I think so, and this is wrong--consistency should be the goal. LactoseTI 02:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- Invasion is a "charge" and it should be credited to the invaders. A "charge" of the "invasion" word can be read in the examples that I wrote above.
-
-
-
- "Although victorious against the invading Japanese, Korea suffered great loss of life, looting of cultural artifacts, and significant damage to its economy." There is a "charge" to the invaders, who are the Japanese. The sentence, to you, can be POV since it may look as if Japan is "bad". But the sentence is true.
-
-
-
- If Japan didn't invade Korea, then what was it? A tea party? Or a "conflict"? "Conflict" of course is NPOV, but that is not the correct term. "Conflict" may look as if both sides have aggraveted each other. Did this happen when Japan invaded China, Korea, or Southeast Asia? Japan definitely invaded those countries. Good friend100 02:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
- Ah, so now we come to the main point--you feel Japan did something without provocation. If you bother to read at all from the primary sources at the time and documentary later, it's definitely not quite so clear. When we have a murky situation like this, it's better to be neutral, and not take either side. It's especially easy to make your error when one country lost (as Japan) because the winners have the opportunity to rewrite history.
-
-
-
-
-
- One example might be Korea and Taiwan--one view is that they were annexed into part of the empire, which could be construed as a gift or blessing. Many older Taiwanese I've spoken/interviewed still remember the Japanese with fond words and credit them for their current mass transit systems, among other things. Both Koreans and Taiwanese with which I've spoken often eagerly brag about their knowledge of the Japanese language which they maintain from when they learned it when younger. My point is if Japan had won, I'd probably be on here warning some headstrong Japanese guy to be more neutral. Some might object to painting the above story without also pointing out that some feel it wasn't so nice. This is where NPOV comes in.
-
-
-
-
-
- Futhermore, an article about a shrine is definitely not the place to be worried about such details--try going to the page describing the conflicts themselves. LactoseTI 02:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-
I really don't understand the point. Are you saying Korea wanted to be annexed and liked it because "if it wasn't for Japan, Korea wouldn't be like this today". Good friend100 02:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm saying "invasion" is too strong of a word, and at least in this case is reflecting your POV. LactoseTI 03:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
- It cannot be. Invasion has been used in the above articles and they are not POV. I don't think you want to change every single "invasion" in the entire Wikipedia to "conflict". Good friend100 03:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- Wikipedia is not perfect, and in many cases "invasion" would be better off as "advancement" or "conflict." This case is more clear cut since there is a list that would otherwise seem to be drawing a distinction between the two terms. LactoseTI 03:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
You don't seem to understand my point. Korea or China never aggravated Japan. Japan invaded them both. And its a conflict? The Japanese invaded and "invaded" is the right term for when any country decides to attack another without specific reasons other than to get their land, resources, or people.
"conflict" doesn't even make sense. "China and Japan went into a conflict". That sound's so much like as if both countries started a "war". But that is misleading. Japan invaded China and that is the point. Japan invaded China and Korea.
It seems you are pushing for "conflict" since you don't want the Japan side to look in a worse way. Thats too bad. Its Japan's fault for attacking the other countries and it cannot be erased off the history. Good friend100 03:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I suppose it might be valuable to save the above comment as a good example of a POV argument. Conflict with the Allied forces makes perfect sense. Yes, it's true that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. By your logic you might say it was unprovoked--but many non-military events led up to that occasion, and it's not so clear cut. The same applies to the conflicts that happened in Asia. Some feel Japan was forced into it. Others feel they did it unilateraly. The point is it all depends on your POV--so simply head off the issue by avoiding such language.
- I don't see the instance you refer to ("Japan and Korea went into a conflict")--if such an instance exists, I agree it sounds like bad wording... the cases about which I was talking were simply the ones in the list of events from which spirits were enshrined. LactoseTI 03:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
So whether it's an invasion depends on pov? Japan forced to bomb pearl harbor? Typical for a revisionist. You're pushing a revisionist pov by absurdly claming it's npov. Japan definitely invaded China, Korea, and the rest of Asia. You can't deny the fact that there were invasions by saying, oh poor japan, it was forced to invade these countries because the big bad america was not selling war material to it, oh poor japan. Stupid revisionist crap, please cut the illogical bullshit.
- Although you clearly have an agenda, I suppose it's still worth bothering to reply for those following along. In other articles, the consensus has been to avoid even the term "occupation" since it was determined to be a POV term. Some may say the Americas were invaded by Europeans or that the moon was invaded by Americans. Conflict and invasion both get the point across--people died, and the spirits wound up in Yasukuni. One is debatable (invasion), one is not (conflict). What's more, one is POV (invasion), one is not (conflict). Please state how the Yasukuni article is harmed by having the term "conflict" instead of "invasion" when discussing where people died. LactoseTI 06:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- My agenda is to prevent revisionists like you for mucking up decent articles. The term "occupaion" is used throught the articles, see post-invasion iraq, german occupation of france, and a whole list of japanese occupations. There is nothing debatable about wartime occupations, particularly in situations as specific and documented as ww2 occupations. So please point out where the concensus came from. Dont' try to push for revisionist pov by claiming that you're pushing npov, which is a really cheap tactic. And please do better to back up your statements than to resort to a ridiculous commment that the moon was "invaded" by americans.
-
- I wasn't referring to the term "occupation" as used elsewhere in Wikipedia, but the consensus formed on this particular issue, leading to the current naming conventions on certain articles (abstaining from using the word occupation). While I think it's a bit overly sensitive to be worried about the word "occupation", if someone has a problem and there's an equally good way around it, why not? It wasn't so much a wartime occupation as an annexation (see the article on the period of Japanese control of Korea).
-
- You seem to be missing the main point--how does the article on Yasukuni suffer from maintaining consistency in the list of events leading to deaths recognized by the shrine? LactoseTI 07:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-
-
- "So whether it's an invasion depends on pov? Japan forced to bomb pearl harbor? Typical for a revisionist. You're pushing a revisionist pov by absurdly claming it's npov. Japan definitely invaded China, Korea, and the rest of Asia. You can't deny the fact that there were invasions by saying, oh poor japan, it was forced to invade these countries because the big bad america was not selling war material to it, oh poor japan. Stupid revisionist crap, please cut the illogical bullshit."
-
-
-
-
-
- I DID NOT WRITE THE ABOVE COMMENT. Don't misunderstand me. I don't swear!! Good friend100 00:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
-
-