Talk:Yaoi

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[edit] Straightening Up Some Facts. (Haha, bad pun.)

I made a huge overhaul on the basics of what yaoi is and added sources. Here are the links, the text, and the translations!

http://zokugo-dict.com/27hi/bl.htm

BL/Boy's Love:

BLとはボーイズラブ（Boy's Love）という和製英語の頭文字で、男性の同性愛を題材とする女性向けのマンガや小説を意味する。やおいの一種。 BL wa (Boy's Love) to iu waseieigo no kashuramoji de, dansei no douseiai wo taizai to shite josei-muke no manga ya shousetsu wo imi suru. yaoi no isshu.

BL is an English-influenced Japanese acronym called "Boy's Love,"and it means comics, stories, etc. intended for women, with a theme of male homosexual love. Type of yaoi.

http://zokugo-dict.com/36ya/yaoi.htm

Yaoi:

やおいとは、男性の同性愛を扱った作品のこと。 yaoi to wa, dansei no douseiai wo atsukatta sakuhin no koto

"Yaoi" is works that dealt with male homosexual love.

http://zokugo-dict.com/12si/syotakon.htm

Shotacon (Shotakon/Shoutarou Complex/Shota Complex/Shota):

ショタコンとは、未成年男子（少年）を対象とする性的嗜好のこと。 shotakon to wa, miseinen danshi (shounen) wo taishou to suru seiteki shikou no koto

"Shotacon" is a sexual liking of the subject of underage young men (boys).

火の王国の王女 ~Fire Nation Princess~ (talk) 06:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this, but I'm unsure on two things - firstly that BL is a subgenre of yaoi - I thought that in Japan, yaoi was the old word for plot-what-plot doujinshi featuring males, and that BL was an attempt to reclaim some respectability, and is the new umbrella word for all male-male "homosexual" material for women in Japan. Can you please provide another citation backing this up? Also, the definition of shotacon in the yaoi article is unclear - "underage young men" doesn't really say a lot - the shotacon article itself has "prepubescent" which is much more understandable as to how old the boys are portrayed as being. -Malkinann (talk) 12:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Yaoi USED TO be just plot-what-plot materials, but it developed into a blanket term for all. BL is the term for all yaoi AIMED AT WOMEN. Yaoi is all male-male homosexual material. I don't have another source; I only have what I translated. I guess I could go find another Japanese dictionary. As for shotacon, I'll go edit the official page, because the definition says "miseinen," which definitely means "underage" and not "prepubescent." I'll go fix that now. 火の王国の王女 ~Fire Nation Princess~ (talk) 00:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
If that's the case, then can you please edit up the Yaoi#Usage section here based on your sources? Also, are you aware of anything about the by-men-for-men "gay manga"? If Yaoi is the blanket term for male-male "homosexual" material, then logically there must be yaoi aimed at men, so that needs clarifying too. In this article, it treats yaoi as a subtype of "Boy Loves Boy" manga, and treats gay manga separately. -Malkinann (talk) 03:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Done. There was something wrong with the formatting that blocked out a lot of that section, so I fixed that, too. Yaoi aimed at men, as you said, is called "gay manga." After years researching, I have never heard of "Boy Loves Boy" manga and have not come across that term on any Japanese language sites. What would it even be called? "BLB?" "Boy Loves Boy?" "Shounen Suki Shounen?" "Shounen wa Shounen ga Suki?" My guess is that whoever wrote that article made the term up. Maybe it's just me, but I don't trust any material that doesn't give direct quotes in the Japanese language. 火の王国の王女 ~Fire Nation Princess~ (talk) 04:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for that. As that article is an academic article, that makes it a reliable source by Wikipedia's standards, so we must endeavour to find many reliable sources to get a full picture. Please take care to preserve the text-source relationship when working with an article with inline citations. Is what you just fixed coming from the dictionary definition? I can help you dual-cite it if that's the case.-Malkinann (talk) 05:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, it's from the definition. I don't know anything about what Wikipedia considers a reliable source; I'm just saying that, I, personally, do not trust anything that doesn't give actual Japanese text. Unless I can read it myself, I'm skeptical of it. Maybe I'm just too picky. -shrug- 火の王国の王女 ~Fire Nation Princess~ (talk) 02:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the article is developing split personality again with two new definitions of yaoi. For example- Usage section paragraph 1: "Yaoi is used in Japan to include doujinshi and sex scenes, and does not include gay publications." 4 lines later: "...and yaoi for gay men by gay men is called "gay manga." I don't know which definition is more correct but it really can't be left as is. Another big question is- if yaoi includes gay manga then why does the article only deal with BL? Almost each mention of "gay manga" carefully distinguishes it from article's subject matter, yaoi.Tanya had (talk) 09:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Part of it is probably the "yaoi ronsou" - gay men find the depiction of men in girl-aimed yaoi distasteful, so they prefer to distance "gay manga" from girl-aimed BL. The Lumsing article may be able to provide further details on "gay manga", but I'm not sure I could squeeze any more out of it - I've read it too often. An article having a split personality is a good thing, as long as both sides cite their sources. So we can say "such-and-such a source says this, but so-and-so says that" and present both sides, appropriately weighted. -Malkinann (talk) 13:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
What you describe seems ideal for this article. It's probably the only way to settle the disagreements over yaoi being 'male/male, 'BL' or 'hardcore BL'. Aestheticism.com works fine for me.Tanya had (talk) 17:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I assumed by "gay publications," they mean nonfictional gay publications, like magazines, dating guides, etc. 火の王国の王女 ~Fire Nation Princess~ (talk) 02:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Firenationprincess- Do you know Japanese well enough to read the Japanese wiki articles for BL, yaoi or gay manga? That might clear things up a bit.
Haha, why didn't I think of that? -facepalm- It would take me a while, but I've got plenty of free time, so why not? :) I'll get on that now. 火の王国の王女 ~Fire Nation Princess~ (talk) 04:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
...Wow. I should have known. From what I could gather without a dictionary, there's plenty of conflicting information on those pages. More importantly... there are no sources. -.-; So, I didn't even bother thoroughly translating. Oh well. 火の王国の王女 ~Fire Nation Princess~ (talk) 04:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, let's look at the sources to clear things up a bit. The pedagogy article, about doujinshi, indicates that it's talking about gay manga, not gay lifestyle magazines. ""Gay stuff is more real," explained a yaoi fan echoing other female informants who repeatedly told us that the genre of manga found in the gay community is "about reality" By reality, yaoi readers were referring to depictions of behaviors which actually occur between gay males. On the other hand, yaoi and boys' love dojinshi, which "are fantasy," are seen as the imagined relationships between males, which exist only in the minds of female yaoi creators and readers." Aestheticism.com isn't responding right now for me, is it responding to anyone else? -Malkinann (talk) 03:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FAKE cover?!

Should the fake cover really be the one at the top of the page? I haven't read the entire manga but from what I hear, there's barely anything sexually explicit in it. A short sex scene or two and that's pretty much it. And this is a series that spans seven volumes. FAKE own Wikipedia entry states that it's a BL manga! —Preceding unsigned comment added by FallenAngelII (talk • contribs) 2007 March 21

[edit] Yaoi Wiki?

Homestar Runner has it's own wiki, why not a Yaoi Wiki, or BL Wiki, or at least an Anime/Manga Wiki? (Japanophile Wiki?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.236.220 (talk)

You can make one yourself. Although I don't see why it is needed. This seems like plenty —Preceding unsigned comment added by Animematt (talk • contribs) 18:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Equality section

I removed most of the "equality" section as it is biased, incorrect and seems to confuse shoujo/josei BL with gay manga. Here are my reasons:

The title "Equality" is in itself problematic. Suggesting equality as the alternative to traditional seme/uke roles is judgemental and seems to imply that all seme/uke relationships are unequal. There is nothing in the "Seme and uke" section that supports this. The real objective alternative to traditional seme/uke roles is non-traditional seme/uke roles. Also:

1st paragraph:

  • Seinen and shounen is not BL. The increasing amount of male/male plots in seinen and shounen is not relevant to a discussion about seme/uke roles in BL/yaoi.

2nd paragraph:

  • bara is not considered to be part of the BL/yaoi genre.
  • there is no misconception that bara is about equality.

3rd paragraph:

  • yaoi/BL is not established as a woman's space "where reality does not matter". Where did that come from?
  • equality movement that recognizes gay/bi men- this is not really true, unfortunately. Publishers are aware that gay/bi men read BL but this has no significant effect on the genre. Also, how is this relevant to the subject of traditional seme/uke roles in yaoi/BL?

Tanya had 03:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the point of the seme and uke to NOT have an equal relationship? They all seem very one sided to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Animematt (talk • contribs) 18:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
That's definitely not the point of a seme/uke relationship. The seme and uke might be different from one another but that doesn't mean they're not equal (unless you believe having a square jaw and being a top also means being superior and in control of the relationship). Seme/uke pairings can be equal or unequal, depending on the title. Tanya had (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Ah, well I guess I just don't understand the point of the "uke and seme" then. The vary nature of the definition just rings one dominating over another to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 15:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is bara not considered part of Yaoi? It is maleXmale relations. Also, wasn't bara some of the first maleXmale stories? (Bara tribe and lily tribe) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 15:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Yaoi/BL is part of the shoujo category- it's manga for girls. Bara type muscle men can *only* be found in gay manga for gay men so we're talking two different publishing genres here. I'm not sure how old bara is... the term refers to an old magazine but the art style might be more recent. Gay manga has its own interesting history but unfortunately I don't know a lot about it.Tanya had (talk) 16:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Alright then, But what about a male that writes what you would define as "BL"? I have heard from many people that it is not yaoi unless a female writes it. If it was from a male, they just call it "gay porn" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 05:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I personally think that if it looks like BL, reads like BL and sold like BL then it's BL (there are actually a few BL writers that are rumored to be male such as Kisaragi Hirotaka). The boundaries aren't so clear in western fandom and no one ever agrees on what counts as "real" yaoi besides commercial BL from Japan. I think this is what creates so much confusion.Tanya had (talk) 19:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I ask because I know that shota is often sold under the yaoi label. I remember when Boku no Pico came out, it was pretty popular. But when the fans found out that a lot of shota is written by males, and or mainyl targeted at males they hated it. Yet the stories would still be considered under the yaoi/shoujo genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 23:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I know very little about shota. All I know is that BL shota that's intended for girls does exist. Shota for men wouldn't be considered as shoujo or BL in *Japan* but anything could happen in the western fandom, where each word seems to have 3 different interpretations... Tanya had (talk) 17:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I would agree in that there is a very small segment of Japanese gay culture that enjoys shota (which would presumably include those who are predisposed to pedophilia). However, given that about 5-7% of the Japanese population is gay (if we go by contemporary estimates), you are talking about a very minuscule number of people as would be consumers. Given that shota is commercially published (Shounen Shikou is a popular one), it is only logical to conclude (read: not original research) that the vastly more populous heterosexual female audience is going to make up the greater share of those consuming said works. I would seriously doubt that it is specifically targeted for the lesser of the two aforementioned audiences. That would not make sense, in the context of a publishing business. You should realize that your western moral judgment and western viewpoint are irrelevant to Japanese women. There just isn't the moral panic caused by the depictions of pre-teens in sexual situations that there is in the west. Japanese society is, by and large, not concerned that a pedophile is lurking behind every dark alley. As such, this sub-genre of yaoi thrives. From what I hear, it is the "cuteness" factor that enamors the women to read such works. Yes, some of the artists are men. But the same is true for yaoi (some of the more notable Naruto doujin-kas are gay men). So, to imply that there are few or no female shota artists is just plain wrong. Most notably, Yun Kouga who is known for Loveless, is one. There are numerous others, you can find some other names on one of the manga databases like "baka-updates manga." As for your comments about Boku no Pico, well that is, once again, from your own viewpoint. Perhaps the circles you travel in felt that way, but most of the yaoi boards would tend to say otherwise. It is hugely popular with the female audience over on Aarinfantasy. Not only that, but all of the shota-con fansubbers and scanlators for Aarinfantasy are female. Furthermore, I'd say it is a safe bet that most all of the scanlation groups that release shota titles are 100% female. Nobody really gives a damn what gender the artist is or who the target audience is, as long as it looks good they'll take it. I also suspect that there is a cheap thrill to be had from reading something that is considered extremely taboo by our western culture. 130.127.48.188 (talk) 21:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

On Bara. It's not really a 'genre' in Japan. According to recent trends and new collections put out by Kousai, Bakudan, and Ookra Shupan in the last three years--there's a market for male fans of BL, and gay mangaka are making what is called 'BL' but looks very much like what westerners call 'bara'. I spoke to the owner of Lumiere in Japan [they own Rainbow Shoppers online] for my own write-up on the history of 'gay manga', and was told that the stories foreign fans call 'bara' is actually marketed as 'BL' in Japan. They distinguish themselves by art-style and names like 'menslove' and 'machotype' and 'g-men'. It seems to me that 'bara' is just another western umbrella term that distinguishes romance 'BL' made by gay mangaka for gay 'BL' fans from the traditionalist 'BL' for women by women. [1] Gynocrat (talk) 16:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] PRENOUNCIATION

HOW DO YOU PRONOUNCE YAOI? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.17.249 (talk) 00:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It's "pronunciation". (Momus (talk) 20:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Marketed at girls?

I thought that an important aspect of yaoi was that it is marketed towards girls. Good article about it here: http://www.greencine.com/article?action=view&articleID=96 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.200.131 (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It's already mentioned in the the 'usage' section but it might be a good idea to add it to the introduction as well Tanya had 15:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I am wondering why "yaoi" made by males is not considered Yaoi. I mean...it is still a maleXmale relationship. What makes it not yaoi? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Animematt (talk • contribs) 18:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] sexually explicit or not

There seems to be a tug of war over the "sexually explicit" part of the definition and I can see why- the article is not consistent in its definition of yaoi:

According to most of the article, yaoi is a publishing genre the Japanese call "Boy's Love", but Boy's Love is not always sexually explicit. According to other parts of the article, yaoi is sexually explicit BL and shounen-ai is non explicit BL. This means yaoi is more like a subgenre of Boy's Love.

To untangle this mess we need to choose one definition and stick with it. If yaoi is sexually explicit BL then we can no longer refer to it as a publishing genre and most of the 'Usage' and 'Yaoi vs. BL' sections need to be rewritten. If yaoi IS the same as BL then we need to change parts of the definition, add non sexual titles to the 'Publishing' section and maybe explain that some people only refer to yaoi as sexually explicit (the last paragraph in 'Yaoi vs. BL' mentions this). I personally prefer the second option because it's easier and the better written parts of the article are the ones that equate yaoi with BL in general. Thoughts? Tanya had 15:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tanya My humble opinion is that BL and Yaoi are different. Yaoi is sexually explicit in nature (although it varies in degrees) and BL can simply be stories of male love - without any sexual scenes. There should be no debate (this is definately fact). I have stopped editing recently out of frustration but would appreciate someone addressing the mess --Sharonlees 12:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! The ongoing frustration is no doubt caused by this very issue- someone will always add Gravitation to the list because it's BL, someone will always delete it because it's shounen-ai. I actually think the opposite of you- as far as I can tell the term "shounen-ai" is falling into disuse in western fandom and it's taking the yaoi/shounen-ai dichotomy with it. You just don't see it used much anymore and western publishers never use it either. It seems to me that these days, yaoi is more often used to describe any male/male title marketed at girls, which is the same definition BL has. Now that I think about it, adding a separate, main article about BL with a "yaoi vs. shounen-ai" section might also solve this problem. I will wait for more opinions before I attempt anything.Tanya had 16:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

ok, since I didn't get enough feedback I'm going ahead and changing the article to remove contradictions and make it cohesive. All my reasons are stated above. The matter of yaoi being sexually explicit is addressed in the section about shounen ai and yaoi and I will also add titles that aren't explicit to the publishing list later on. My punctuation is bad and could probably use corrections, though.Tanya had 14:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I just call anything with maleXmale relations in it Yaoi...keeps it simple. I find all these subterms to be a bit annoying, personally —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 21:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I totally understand what you mean but I think this definition of yaoi is even less common than the rest. You're welcome to try and change the article but I'm pretty sure you will encounter strong resistance.Tanya had (talk) 19:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, i have always called it Yaoi, and the other stuff Yuri. Never fancied the shonen/shoujo-ai terms. I suppose I could call it "BL". You have to keep in mind that a lot of yaoi is rather sexually explicit too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 14:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] EL section

Please consider using the lengthy External Links section, as sources for the article, if these meet WP:V#Sources ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Doujinshi Citation

I did enter this on another page that I thought was your 'talk page' but it seems I didn't. To answer your query on my talk page:

--The cited Mark McLelland article on 'the bulk of yaoi manga in Japan is doujinshi'.

I read this article, and I can't help but notice that while the article was uploaded with a recent date, many of the subjects he speaks of is still dated, in the text of the article, as mid-to-late 90's; just before the pro-BL publishing zenith in Japan. The actual citation used says At present, the majority of yaoi manga are produced by amateur women fans either as dōjinshi (fanzines) or on the Internet. There are now so many amateur yaoi titles, and such is Japanese women’s interest in them, that special editions of general manga and animation magazines often bring out ‘boys’ love’ specials.

He follows that up with talk of a 1999 collection to prove his point. Can you see what I mean, by dated?

It looks like the Mark McLelland piece was updated for the web, to include the Biblos Bankruptcy of 2006, and to update info on the licensing boom in the states--however, much of his article is still talking about the Japanese scene...circa the 90's. Since the late 90's boom, things have changed. Most notable, the pro 'BL' publishing scene which clearly out-produced the amateur scene. ^_^ Not trying to bring trouble, but that was my reason for asking for a citation check. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gynocrat (talk • contribs)

I believe the 'bonking' article was originally written in 2001 and later updated in 2006, so as you say, it could be outdated. As it is, I believe the verifiability policy recommends that if the statement on the bulk of yaoi is doujinshi is to remain in the article, the citation to the bonking article must stay with it. If you wish to remove the statement about the bulk of yaoi being doujinshi, I believe the usual thing to do is to find a reliable source that says differently, for further clarification. Please note the section on self-published sources in particular. (sorry to have to point it out)-Malkinann (talk) 01:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question about yaoi fans(lover)

Whats the motive behind yaois? Supposing most yaoi writers are female, why are they seem to be drawn to yaoi? i know that for normals hetro sex, its pleasure from playing your gender role. Eg. if a guy is watching porn movie, hes drawn to picture himself as the guy in the act of the porn movie and females picturing herself as the girl in the act. What do yaoi fans connect themselves to? Can anyone explain the mindset of yaoi fan? -CuriousGeorge —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.1.234 (talk) 05:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Most yaoi writers are female, and a fair few are lesbians (Lumsing). I'd suggest that you read the resources in this article (Yaoi#References, General references, and Yaoi#Further reading) to give you a fuller picture of why yaoi fans like yaoi. There are many different reasons that people have for liking yaoi. There's voyeuristic opportunities (to someone who likes guys, one guy is hot, two guys together is hotter - posited by McLelland), enjoying the taboo and overturning of norms (Noh), and seeing two guys together as being 'equal' (Wilson and Toku). I think that power is often an issue played with in yaoi - which character has the power, and which doesn't (as can be seen in seme/uke relationships). If sexuality is with two guys instead of a man and a woman, it's more distant, and so less frightening for a young female who may just be starting to think about her own sexuality (Welker). There's a fair few papers and articles out there which ask 'why?' and try to come up with answers - they'd be able to say it better. :) -Malkinann (talk) 06:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Ahh thanks for the bit of info. I'll look into those articles. (cg) 76.115.1.234 (talk) 03:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
See also "slash" fanfic brain (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yaoi science fiction and fantasy

I trying to improve the Gay science fiction article, and i guess this Yaoi has some overlapp. I assume there is a large amount of science fictional / fantasy content, as with other anime/manga? If someone knowledgable could write a summary, it would be great. If not, i'll do it, but cannot be blamed if i get things wrong! Also: is it possible to identify the first science fictional yaoi, or the most influential or bestselling? Yobmod (talk) 10:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Publishers.

  • Biblos needs it's own page, or at least an article about it's history. Allyour Biblos are now belong to Libre.
  • Be x Boy, Supper BBC, Be x Boy NovelBiblos Comics, & Zero Comics (not to be confused with Zero Sum) all belonged to Biblos, now Libre.
  • Wings, Dear +, & Paper Moon are related.
  • It's not Pias Series, it's June Pierce.
  • Enerous & Gust are related.
  • Don;t just put "CL DX." Asuka, Asuka CL, & Asuka CL DX all do BL mangas.
  • Racish & Ikisuchi are related.
  • Aqua, Oak, & Pixy are related.
  • B's Anima (aka Boys Anima) & Shy are related.
  • Hanamaru, Jets, & Hana to Yuma are related.
  • Margaret & Ribbon Mascot are related.
Thank you very much for your advice on the publishers. I really want to make a page for Biblos, but at the moment I can't find any sources that say beyond "Biblos was a boys love publisher, it went bankrupt in 2006 and now there's a tricky situation between the people who picked up their old titles and the English publishers of these titles." Are you aware of any reliable sources which go into more detail about the actual company? -Malkinann (talk) 23:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)