Talk:Yang style tai chi chuan
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[edit] List of Wikipedians by martial art add yourself!
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[edit] merge
I ahve moved that the page for Tchoung Ta Chen "style" tai chi be merged with Yang style. VanTucky 21:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Please Research This
I no longer have access to a University library (graduated two years and 2 months ago), so, please do the article a favor and include information on the three separate frames. All Tai Chi styles ever made, by tradition, have three versions. There is the basic large frame, which is the foundational one, the medium one which is of course intermediate, and finally the most advanced which is the small frame. Traditionally speaking, the Yang family only teaches a small handful of students all three frames. Why is this important?
Well, Tai Chi Chuan can not be used to its fullest potential as a martial art unless all frames are learned because they encompass, naturally, the three ranges of combat. The large frame teaches defense against attacks that come from long range, and it is actually very similar to Aikido. The medium frame teaches defense right as an attacker steps into the "kill zone," or, the point where grappling (stand up or otherwise) will make more of a difference than getting in an actual slugging match. Finally, the small frame, teaches sensitivity to the most minute of muscular twitches in an opponent's body, allowing the practitioner to throw an opponent when they exert just enough kinetic energy to move barely an inch. So, summarized; the large frame teaches coordination, and sensitivity to big movements, the medium frame teaches sensitivity in case of a grappling like situation, and the small frame, the most difficult to master, teaches sensitivity to the tiniest movements of the body.
Everyone has always asked themselves why the Yangs taught their style to the Manchu royal family, after all, did that not make him a traitor to the han people? Master Yang himself was a Han Chinese, not Manchu. To that I say, not necessarily. As with all non-family, or non-chosen students, Master Yang taught only the rudimentary basics to the Manchu Royal family, and their royal guard. As a martial art, everyone who practices Tai Chi knows that the art's true power comes from its effective use of the laws of physics. It is so effective, one needs only the rudimentary basic form to defeat all other styles of Kung Fu, including Shuia Jiao, among various forms of wrestling.
So what am I suggesting here? That Master Yang only taught the rudimentary, basic large frame form, and only rudimentary Tai Chi style Chin Na, in addition to only rudimentary pushing hands exercises. Please do the research; I can almost guarantee you will find a reliable source on the fact that the Yangs do not teach all three frames to outsiders, or, students they do not feel will work hard enough to perfect the form. Master Yang Cheng Fu himself only taught Chen Mang Ching all three frames, while Cheng Mang Ching himself never taught the three frames. The Tai Chi most of us do, is only the basic, rudimentary form, and without an instructor knowleadgable even in the basic push hands or chin na, it can not be used as a martial art. Its a bit of a tragedy, but its true. The few true masters of Tai Chi Chuan, the ones who know every single frame, reside only in China and maybe, perhaps though its a long shot, Taiwan.
Please do the research; you will find proof of what I'm talking about. The Yang style, like all styles of Tai Chi Chuan, actually has three frames, each 108 steps long. You are asking yourself, if true, why three frames? Please do not forget the Daoist philosophy of "stillness" which dictates "big movements are not as refined as medium ones, medium ones, not as refined as small ones, but small movements, not as refined as stillness." The large frame is large, because its easier for people to circulate chi using big movements. As the student gets better and better, they move on to the medium frame to circulate it in a more precise manner. Then the small frame to circulate it in an even more precise manner than that. Finally, to standing perfectly still, and allowing the chi to circulate of its own accord.
If at all possible, please do more research. Also if possible, please inform those interested in Tai Chi that what is learned in the west is an incomplete rudimentary style. That is, we are only taught one of the three frames. I ask that you do this, as a favor to people interested in Tai Chi as a martial art so that they know what they're getting into. Unless one speaks perfect Chinese, and can navigate their way around China as if they live there, they better accept the fact that they will have to make do with only the basic, rudimentary form of whatever style they do. The Chens have been considerably more generous though; even though they teach shortened versions of their forms, they hold nothing back from what I have read both from internet and library sources.
sorry for the length, and sorry for the soapboxing.
good day.
206.63.78.84 (talk)stardingo747 —Preceding comment was added at 00:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting stories, but our articles aren't the place to sort them out. Please see WP:SOAPBOX. As for teaching our readers about the quality of modern tai chi, Wikipedia is not a how-to manual. If there are references to the three frames, we can put them in, if not, we won't. The current Yang family teachers, Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun, deny categorically that there is any Yang style frame but the large. Yang Shou-chung's students state otherwise, and Yang Shaohou was known for his small circle frame, related to what Yang Banhou taught Wu Quanyuo. If the Yang père et fils only taught the Imperial Bodyguard a large frame form, why is Wu Quanyuo's family (direct descendants of the Imperial Guardsmen the Yangs taught) known for their small frame expertise? There is no reliable reference available in our articles that Chen Man-ch'ing was taught any other form than the large frame Yang Chengfu form. He studied with Yang less than ten years. So you see, some of us have done a lot of research, these issues are debatable, and encyclopaedia articles aren't the place to debate them. If you have references, these things may be mentioned, but we aren't going to push them as the truth. --Bradeos Graphon Βραδέως Γράφων (talk) 03:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
