Talk:Yahwism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This page is a somewhat interesting compendium of lore, but it really is not directly about "Yahwism". AnonMoos 03:30, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I've been meaning to give it a facelift for a while now, but haven't had the time to sit down and do it. None of this is really relevant to either Documentary Hypothesis Yahwism or modern Yahwism. --Steve Caruso 16:32, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Non-monotheism

It goes beyond "henotheism", since YHWH was worshipped alongside other Gods -- exactly as the Bible said that Solomon did, etc. etc. AnonMoos 12:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Forms of henotheism in ancient Mesopotamia included henotheistic councils where there were groups of gods worshiped alongside eachother. However, I do like how the current article renders the concept and would only recommend "alongside or in conjunction with." :-) --Steve Caruso 19:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yahwism, Jahwist, and others

I suggest that we merge a lot of these articles together, or at least better cross-reference and disambiguate them.

  • Yahwism - This article here Yahwist religions and traditions and has spawned Category:Yahwism.
  • Jahwist - This article discusses the J source of the Torah, and I feel should be kept seperate, but better disambiguated.
  • Yahwistic - Sorta about Yahwism, mostly about Theophoric Names. However, the Theophoric Names article needs some -serious- revision to also take into account other non-Hebrew theophoric names from other cultures and religions (and be cleaned up according to the Manual of Style).
  • Jehovist - About modern Jehovism which is arguably just a "alternately pronounced" form of modern Yahwism.

And I'm sure there are others out there. --Steve Caruso 18:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with article

I would appreciate sources for the claims made in this article. Which proponents of the documentary hypothesis used the word Yahwism, and where? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:05, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, I believe that most of this article is simply false:

  • Yahwism is the specific use of the Tetragrammaton (ancient Hebrew יהוה) as a name of God.

[edit] Not true. Jews use the tetragrammaton all the time and do not identify themselves as Yahwists. Moreover, I have read many well-regarded books on Jews (and ancient Israel) and don't recall any of them refering to Jews or the Children of Israel as Yahwists. Please provide a verifiable source. If you cannot, I will delete the paragraph. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

This was taken directly from the original article before this was revised. Look at any online dictionary, such as Freedictionary.com, Miriam Webster, Dictionary.com, such books as Yahwism After the Exile (Albertz R, Becking B. 2002), various articles on BAR, etc. etc. etc.. The Jewish religion is, by definition, Yahwist. --Steve Caruso 22:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
first, the article must comply with our NOR rule. If you have citations to support these claims, please put them in. Second, the article must comply with our NPOV rule. At best you can say, the Jewish religion is Yahwist according to x's definition. Wikipedia is not about "the truth." it is not for Wikipedia to say what the Jewish religion is or is not. Wikipedia can provide different views of the Jewish religion. Some people identify the Jewish religion as Yahwist. Some people define Yahwism as (...). We should tell readers whose views these are, and not claim that they are held by everyone. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
  • According to the Documentary Hypothesis, "Yahwism" refers to the religion of the group behind the J source of the Torah.

I do not recall any of the major contributors to the documentary hypothesis - Wellhausen, Gunkel, Kaufmann - as saying this. I have never read any Bible scholar claim that the J text expressed a particular "religion" distinct from that of the authors of the E, P and D texts. Please provide a verifiable source. Otherwise, I will delete the paragraph. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

One of the defining characteristics of the J source was it's use of YHWH as the name of God and a focus on Judah and it's politics and religious experiences. Read up on Jahwist#Nature of the Jahwist text. --Steve Caruso 22:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Non-sequitor. There is a proposed source that uses YHWH as the name for God. Yes. But this does not mean that there is such a thing called "Yahwism." The Koran calles God Allah. This does not mean that followers of the Koran practice Allahism. Wellhausen and Kaufmann do not to my knowledge talk about Yahwism. They do talk about the J text - which is not the same thing. Gunkel talks about the religion of the Yahwists (meaning not those people who worship YHWH but those people who compiled the J text), but i do not think he calls it Yahwism. The documentary hypothesis in no way requires the claim that there was a religion called "Yahwism." Some scholars may make this claim, and may have reasons for making this claim. I am only asking that these scholars be named and the reasons provided - the article should NOT present these claims as if they are universal truths. That violates NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
  • More broadly, "Yahwism" may also refer to a religion based on the worship of the deity known as Yahweh.1 Religions that are considered Yahwist may include Samaritanism, Judaism, and some argue Christianity and Islam.

"May" is a weasel word and on this basis alone the whole pargraph should be deleted. Yahwism either does or does not refer to these religions. These religions either are or are not considered Yahwist. Moreover, I challenge the accurcay of the claim. Yahwism does not refer to any religion that worships God. Judaism is not refered to as a Yahwist religion. Am I wrong? Provide verifiable sources. Or else, I will delete this paragraph. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Again, see my first comment. Judaism is specifically a Yahwist religion. What is this? Scrutinize-all-things-Yahwist-week? :-) --Steve Caruso 22:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
You are evading my point that "may" is a weasel word, you have not replied to my comment. Moreover, to be clear, it is YOU who claim that Judaism is a Yahwist religion. I have no doubt that others claim this as well. But people claiming it does not make it true. No matter. Wikipedia is not about "truth." We must provide different points of view, and make it clear that they are views. This article presents only one view, and does so in a way that suggests it is the only view, universally held and incontrovertable. This violates NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The article violates NOR and NPOV. You have not responded adequately to any of my comments. I suspect you do not understand our policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The biggest problem with this article is that it doesn't have anything to say. PiCo 11:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Yahwist Church

There exists a Yahwist church still today. I know, for I was raised in it. Perhaps a disambiguation page would be nice, or some mention here?Docgravel 04:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The worst Wikipedia article I know

This is a really, really low quality article. The first section ("Documentary Hypothesis" is a disgrace. It starts with confusing two utterly distinct notions, 1) the Jahwist idea which is part of the widely known Documentery Hypothesis about the authorship of texts of the biblical canon (Jewish Bible / Old Testament), and 2) the religion of Yahwism, which has been characterized by biblical scholars as a henotheistic precursor of monotheistic Judaism. Now instead of at least informing us about Yahwism in the centuries before the Babylonian Exile, the author goes on to tell us about a completely irrelevant and non-notable modern Christian sect ("Messianic Judaism" is a branch of Christianity) that calls itself "Yahwism". I doubt that this sect has a place in Wikipedia at all, but if it has, this article certainly isn't the right place.

Wellhausen's Jahwist has no place (other than a link) in an article about Yahwism. The subject is dealt with elsewhere in Wikipedia articles of good quality.

The subject of theophoric names derived from "Yahweh" has no place (etc.) here either. It has its own Wikipedia article as well.

If this article is to stay, it should deal with the Yahweh-centered beliefs in, say, the 10th - 6th centuries BCE in Canaan. Despite the fantasies of some modern religious sects, very little is known about the Yahweh cults of this period.

GdB 12:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)