Talk:Y'all
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-This is my first wikipedia post and I don't know the clubhouse rules. I am from New Orleans, and we say the word constantly. I don't see it mentioned anywhere that yall is an adjective. For instance, "I got yall money right here." You can even have a double yall. A waitress might say "I'll go get yall yall drinks." The first yall is a pronoun, the second yall is an adjective. Also, yall can meld with the word before it to make something new. If I walk into a room with friends, I might say "Chall doin?" What I mean is "What are yall doing?" but the "are" is naturally omitted from speech so you are left with "What yall doing?" The "Wha" is dropped and the "t" becomes "ch" and is added to the beginning of "yall", eliminating a lot of syllables. Fairly common where I'm from. 58.187.76.212 01:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)Wikirookie
—Umm... this page definitely needs some citations or something, because it's not very believable, especially the claims about it being very widespread and acceptable in formal conversations. It definitely is a regional thing, but I haven't heard a "y'all" in a long time... I dunno, it just seems that this page needs some reputable research to back up these claims. --Nichenbach 22:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
---I "dunno" must not be an acceptable contraction of "I don't know" then, if y'all is not acceptable in replacement of "you all" ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.242.38.140 (talk) 04:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
"It is notable that in Standard English there is no single word to represent the second-person plural pronoun." excuse me, what about 'you'?? Bridesmill 19:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Possibly merge with and redirect to English grammar (see footnote 1). 24.245.12.39 07:43, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm redirecting this to plural of you, Steve.
[edit] Use of Y'all in Texas
This is purly anecdotal. I'm not from Texas, but I live there now. I hear "Y'ALL" often used as the singular second person pronoun and I had always thought it was only used in the pural. For the plural second person pronoun, I often hear, "Y'ALL" used as one might expect, but I was also surprised to hear "ALL Y'ALL" used plural in situations when the plural is important and "Y'ALL" might be mistaken for being singular. 24.174.89.190 15:37, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
(Reply from TXFirebear: 16 Nov. 2005)
- This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to address in the expanded definition of "y'all." Yes, people will use "y'all" as a singular pronoun in highly confusing situations where the distinction between singular and plural might drastically change grammatical meaning. Such a confusion between singular and plural second-person is sometimes being skillfully exploited by a Southern (USA) dialect speaker. This forced and purposefull ambiguity of number is similar, I theorize, to the ambiguity surrounding "you" as a distinct formal pronoun (when used in the singular sense). My best, albeit, unsolicited, advice for anyone dealing with a speaker who uses "y'all" in a questionable context such as, "Y'all are goin', ain't ya'?" is to nail the speaker down as to the number of people expected "to go."
- Though "y'all" implies plurality, the need for informality (or the lack of care or understanding of different levels of diction) and the inevitible exploitation of ambiguity for financial gain seem to converge on this simple, stupid word I love so much: "y'all."
Favorite quote from Frank L. Whitington (56+ year Dallas, Texas resident): "Listen, y'all, we don't say, 'y'all.'"
- In Louisiana, just across the Texas border, the only time y'all could be confused for being singular (in my experience) is when someone is speaking to someone as a representative a group. For example, if I see an old friend at the grocery store, I might ask, "How are y'all doin'?" The implication is "How are you and your family doing?" Likewise, when I check out at the same store, I might say to the teller, "Y'all need to check out Aisle 12. Someone spilled some orange juice." Here, y'all is referring to the employee being addressed in addition to all the other employees. Using y'all to address a single individual without implying a connection to a larger group would not be idiomatic in my opinion. — BrianSmithson 19:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm from Texas. Y'all is used as "you all." For example: "What are you all doing?" or "What are all of you doing?" could be replaced by "What are y'all doing?", but "what are you doing?" can't be replaced with "what are y'all doing?", as that woudl simply be stupid. I request that it be edited out. --Melissia 14:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I never hear y'all used in the singular. I frequently hear it used in potentially confusing situations (as BrianSmithson described above), but I don't hear it used to refer to a single person. The distinction between "y'all" and "all y'all" is not one of the cardinality of the group people being addressed, but whether the referent is as a group or as the several members. This is the distinction described in the Southern American English article (which see). As for my linguistic background: I'm from West Texas. My Dad's side is from rural North Texas, and that side has heavily influenced my dialect. (My Mom's side is from San Antonio, but tends towards General American in vocabulary if not pronunciation.) -- Piquan 21:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Marskell, the "Spread" Section Seems Odd
In writing much of the original text for the "y'all" entry (originally part of "you") I was fascinated by the prospect of accurately explaining how "y'all" and "thou," while related, are at odds in meaning because of the plural vs. singular of both informal forms. Despite the odd language regarding prescriptive grammar which seems just anti-academic for its own sake while indulging in amethest lexical choices, the equating of the informal "y'all" with the formal "you" of earlier use is just INCORRECT. The logic of my remaining bits argues against this error. In a few days, after we've had time to discuss your radical revision of this entry and nullification of my own last revisions, I would like to change this error. Basically, I'm saying, "What's up? Let's get this entry right." --TXFirebear 06:24, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
- Insofar as "you" was once plural and "y'all" is now, equating the two is perfectly reasonable. I changed "meaning" to "grammatical number" to specify the comparison. As for "anti-academic for its own sake," how so? Grammarians and teachers don't play a prescriptivist role? It's not an accusation. Finally, as I suggested, I removed your line because it seems odd to make a statement and then subsequently deny it. Absolutely point out that usage is discouraged in other contexts by non-professionals but it appeared that the point was being treated as a strawman. Marskell 14:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] International Use
I think it would be worth to add a point that it is used in the UK at least, as a slightly mocking word. 'Hey y'all' is often used when greeting people in a friendly manner. In my experince, it is only used at the beginning of a conversation, people in my area prefering to refer to the 2nd person plural as either the normal 'you', or the local 'youse'. Does this happen in other areas as well? Big Moira 00:08, 11/03/2006 (GMT)
Well, from where I'm from in the Southern United States, its used pretty frequently even in serious conversation. Its a sort of subconscience thing, and nobody really thinks twice about it. Actually, its used more often than words such as 'you all' and its ilk.
[edit] Pronunciation
I think that an important information which is missing is the IPA transcription. Can somebody provide it, please?
(Reply from jam_cpa: 22 May 2006)
- Here is an IPA transcription that approximates the pronunciation I've heard throughout my life in the Southeastern US (specifically, North Carolina and Georgia):
- I hope this helps. --Jam cpa 05:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Irony
These usage differences are generally cited in the same manner as how people often confuse "their", "there", and "they're". Am I the only one who finds this funny?
No, I find it quite hilarious too. 151.213.230.196 23:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Usage of Y'all
Y'all is used in all but the most formal of speech registers and in writing
Is this true? I'm from Georgia (USA), and I never use y'all in speech or writing (although I did in my earlier years). I think the sentence should be changed to.
Y'all is typically used only in informal situations, and is excluded (and even frowned upon) in formal speech and writing.
Would this change reflect a global opinion? I wouldn't want to show POV on the issue. 151.213.230.196 23:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I second this change. I'm from northern Ohio, so I don't hear "y'all" much at all, but when I do hear it, it has always been in an informal manner. Maybe in some regions "y'all" is used in more formal settings, but from my experiences, it's relegated to informal conversations... and almost never in writing. I'd say go ahead and make the change. --Nichenbach 22:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm from Louisiana, and I've heard and seen y'all in informal and semi-formal speech and writing, but never formal. So I've made the change. Babomb 22:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dual Pronoun?
I have seen the use of y'all for a small group and all y'all for a large group, but is y'all really used to mean only two? Quite the contrary, I have often seen the expression y'all two, meaning "the two of you" (and similarly, y'all three etc.). Sources, please? --Babomb 22:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- There's no way that y'all refers only to two people. The "all" in "all y'all" is used as an emphatic or to distinguish the whole group from a subgroup. --Grouse 08:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Wicked?
Primarily due to the mass-migration of African Americans and other Southerners outside the South in the 20th century, the use of the word y'all in the United States has spread from its original regionalism, similar to the originally Northeastern use of wicked to mean very.
Saying "wicked" in this context is very much a Northeast (especially New England) regionalism. As such, I'm removing the reference from this sentence. If someone can cite evidence that it is as widely and commonly used as y'all, throughout the US, then feel free to reinsert the comparison.
--68.0.212.218 06:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC) Joe
While I was at the University of North Texas in 1996, a group of students made a very amusing, and strong argument against the "y'all" spelling and for "yall." It was based on the fact that "y'all" suggests that the word is a contraction whereas "yall" is the proper second person plural pronoun in the south. Regardless, many of us that graduated from that class still proudly spell it "yall" and use the example sentence from that argument "Yall can keep your dang apostrophe."
[edit] Where it is used
Be careful about how you describe where this term is used. "Y'all" has historically been used throughout the South AND the West (albeit more so in the Southwest than the Northwest). Even today this expression is still quite common in many areas of California (even suburbs of the major cities) where families have been there for generations. It is often true that inside the major cities you hear the expression less often simply because it is seen as unsophisticated. Indeed this expression is a good example of the many cases of common heritage between the South and the West where something is seen as a source of pride in the South and a source of shame in the West. I'm reminded of hearing people in San Francisco talk about those redneck cowboys in Texas as we drove past the Cow Palace. :-)
It should be stated that, in general, the use of "y'all" is slowly dying in the major urban areas of the South, and the Yankee "you guys" has made major inroads since the 70s due both to the influence of television and to the acceptance of the civil rights movement in the South (thereby erasing most of the North-South tensions). The expression is still heavily used, though, all over the South so it is hard to say what its ultimate fate is.
A couple of other points:
- It is very true that y'all has been used as the second person singular in Texas (I don't believe this is unique to Texas but I haven't lived in other
areas that use the expression enough to know for sure). This usage however has rapidly died out in the last couple of decades.
- It is worth comparing the use of y'all in the South to "you guys" in many parts of the North. "You guys" has been an often used clause in the South for a long
time. The difference has been that it was not an "expression" as it is in the North. In the North "you guys" is treated as a single word representing a neuter
pronoun just like "y'all." In the south, however, "you guys" has been interpreted literally in the same way one might say "you ladies" or "you fellows"
or similar things. Specifically, "you guys" would not be something one would say to a group of women or a group of small children since it would sound
strange at best or offensive at worst. In recent years, of course, Southerners have begun to use the expressions interchangeably.
--Mcorazao 15:28, 11 Aug 2006 (CDT)
[edit] Confusion with other Southern words
This section is absolutely absurd. This article desperately needs references and citations. In addition to this paragraph, much of this article appears to violate WP:OR. -THB 13:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Origin
I have to disagree with the article's dismissal of y'all being a contraction of you+all. Saying that you+all’s only contraction can be you'll is extremely shortsighted, especially with a language as diverse and inventive as the English language. Y'all is a contraction of you all. Trying somehow to connect y'all to the Scots-Irish ye aw is absurd. You're giving the word too much credit. It is simply an easier and faster way of saying you all, as everyone here seems to agree. And since the contraction you'll means you will, the contraction y'all was created instead. How can you apply such stringent contraction rules to a word created out of a regional dialect? Also, ya'll is an incorrect form because y'all is not short for ya all. The closest thing to a "ya" is "whatchya doing?" Having lived in Virginia and North Carolina, I have consistently heard the use of y'all my entire life. It is never formal, and it should never be used in any formal writing or speech. Really, the only time that it would ever be written out is in a note, an email to a friend, a joke, etc. Acoastal 16:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Famous Quotes
I removed this section. If the quotes were ABOUT the word y'all I could understand, but these were apparently added merely because they contained the "y'all". I believe they are thus irrelevant, as the article already contains plenty of usage examples. Wikipedia is not Wikiquote. If that weren't bad enough, the quotations did not have source citations. If you disagree, reply below. -Babomb 02:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
That's a stretch, but fine - I don't care. Stwomack 18:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Mencken quote cited in the article...
IS RUBBISH. Unless, that is, he is humbly and strictly submitting that it is impossible for HIM to discern the plurality of the party referenced. But even THAT I find difficult to believe. Being from the South, I have heard and used the word well over the one hundred times one instance of which will allegedly be a singular usage, and I furthermore consider myself fairly linguistically astute, and I cannot imagine any instance where "y'all" could be even quasi-singular, nor any instance where an intelligent observer could not easily discern the implied plural. To refer to a single person as "y'all" would be at least as jarring in conversation as to refer to oneself as "we". If I asked my girlfriend "What do y'all wanna do?" she would most certainly reply "What the hell did you just say to me?" "Y'all" is broadly synonymous with "you guys". Could "you guys" be singular?
Moreover, if I were of the touchier sort I might take offense at the implication of Mencken's "cardinal article of faith in the South, nevertheless..." (and I wonder, does he go on to cite any examples of the "evidence" to the contrary?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekardnam (talk • contribs) 01:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to have not signed the above; it was my first time editing anything on Wikipedia. Also, I admit it is a bit of a rant: I suppose I ought to concede that my experience in the matter is limited to the southeast (North-South from West Virginia to Florida, and west to Alabama (through acquaintances who most definitely speak the native dialect)). I have read the earlier post where the editor writes that they (the singular "they"-- that's for a whole other message board--) have heard the singular usage in Texas, and I will not call them a liar, but I do find it shocking. Could anyone give any context where this would occur, i.e., example sentences?Ekardnam 02:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)Ekardnam
[edit] we all
Surely 'we'll' expands to 'we will', right? A straw poll at my office finds no one familiar with the 'we all' usage. The sentence 'We'll go there' is read as future tense, not indicative of a groups behavior, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.170.97.28 (talk) 17:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Controversy section
I think the Controversy section might best be removed. This isn't a page from a style guide, it's an encyclopedic article explaining actual use of a word in common speech. The only relevant question regarding the putative use of "y'all" in the singular is: is it used in the singular? The answer is "yes it is," and a useful addition would be a rough delineation of those areas where it is so used from those areas where it isn't, since (as I understand it) this usage varies. —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm about to remove most or all of it anyway. One expects a Controversy section to discuss current controversies. An article from 1926 and an article from 1948 may shed light on the point of view 60 or 82 years ago, but as far as we have any reason to know, actual usage could have changed so much since then that they could be entirely obsolete by now. —Largo Plazo (talk) 20:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] All-y'all
I'd like to see someone give details about "all-y'all" (which ought to be hyphenated, no?). I'd be interested to know if (a) it's used solely for the plural or whether it, too, is ever used for the singular and (b) the extent to which the locations where it's used correspond to the locations where the meaning of "y'all" had previously drifted to include the singular. I'm feeling inclined to add a note about how it resembles the case of the French counterpart for "today", formerly "hui" (reduced from Latin "hodie", itself reduced from "hoc die" = "this day"), for which the emphatic form "au jour d'hui" ("on the day of today") evolved—and which has now become "aujourd'hui", the standard modern French word for "today". But now, one can find "au jour d'aujourd'hui", "on the day of today" or, if one analyzes it etymologically, "on the day of the day of today". Our English phrase "up above" is similarly the result of successive emphatic additions after previous ones weakened and lost their separate identity: "be" + "ufan" > "bufan"; "an" + "bufan" > "above"; and, now, "up above". (Guy Deutscher, The Unfolding of Language: An Evolutionary Tour of Mankind's Greatest Invention) The only reason I'm not adding the note myself is that I'm not a "y'all" expert. —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Re-entering Mencken quote
I understand that someone took offense to the Mencken quote. This would be fair, as Mencken was a known foe of all things Southern, but in this case he is mostly supporting the basic position taken by everyone else. The quote covers the controversy and adds color to the article. After all, few if any WP contributors can claim to match the brilliant prose of a Mencken. There are few good aruments for removing this quote from the article entirely. Mr. IP (talk) 16:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Origin and "ya'll"
The origin section says: "The ye+aw origin may be apparent in a modern-day variation of y'all whereby some put the apostrophe after the 'a' (e.g. ya'll). This suggests that y'all could be a contraction for ya all" There is a citation at the end of this paragraph, but it is unclear whether the cited source specifically addresses the question whether the "ya'll" spelling is evidence of a relationship to ye aw. Such a connection seems highly improbable, because, as the quoted language points out, the "ya'll" spelling is a "modern-day variation." One wouldn't expect a modern-day spelling to suddenly pop up as a result of a long-forgotten origin. A quick review of Google Books results for "y'all" and "ya'll" reveals a number of uses of "y'all" to represent Southern (especially Southern Black) vernacular prior to 1900, but all of the uses of "ya'll" appear to be future tense constructions -- contractions of "ya will." PubliusFL (talk) 21:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] a Georgian's opinion
As an inhabitant of Atlanta, I would make the following observations: (1) I have never heard it used in the signular except in the "you + others" sense. (2) I would never use it in writing myself, but then I tend to be formal in my writing style. (3) It is NOT an sign of ignorance. I had a college professor (Ph D) who occasionally used it when addressing his class, and nobody in the class considered it odd. (4) Southerners sometimes use the same construction with "who". I have heard "Who all are coming to the party?" on a number of occasions to convey that one has a number of visitors in mind. (5) By the way. "wicked" (to convey approval) may not be strictly New Englander. Don't some of the British characters in "Harry Potter" use it? Or was that imported from the U.S. along with "cool" and "okay" ? I don't hear it very much in Atlanta. CharlesTheBold (talk) 04:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
