Talk:Yōkai

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Contents 1 Films 2 The Inuyasha Effect 3 Toriyama's Invention of Yokai? 4 New Picture? 5 For future reference: Dictionary Definition of Yōkai (rough translations) 6 Mononoke = youkai? 7 Ukiyo-e & Youkai 8 Picture credit for Oiwa at top 9 Resemblance of Youkai to Western Fae?

[edit] Films

In all the editting the list of films Yokai appear in (that I added [1]) has got lost. Kibakichi has gone for good and the other films are summed up as "The Yokai Daisenso movie series of the 1960s and 70s, as well as the 2005 remake" but as far as I'm aware that is not the name of the series it is the name of the second film and the 2005 remake (translating as "Big Spook War" or "Great Goblin War") - the first film's name translates as something like "One Hundred Ghost Stories". The best stab I could make for the series is "Yokai Monsters" but this only seems to be the tag ADV used but a Google isn't revealing an alternative although someone better at Japanese might be able to dig out something from a non-English source. (Emperor 17:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC))

[edit] The Inuyasha Effect

This section of the article reads as original research and is in desperate need of references if it is not. I suspect it is a fan's interpretation of what's going on, as I doubt any scholarly sources have discussed Inuyasha and its effect on popular perceptions of yokai. Though I'd be happy to be proved wrong. — BrianSmithson 18:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

We may have to move the part about Mizuki's statement. That's easily verified, and we wouldn't want it to be confused with the rest of the OR bit.--み使い Mitsukai 18:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Tough call. That one fact is probably citable, but it's used in a broader analysis that reads as more OR. The entire artilcle is in desperate need of references (as many, many articles on Japanese mythology are). — BrianSmithson 19:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems that due to the large popularity of the animes series Inuyasha, a distorted view of the definition of youkai is emerging. Youkai is the Japanese pronounciation of the two kanji words "妖怪," which can be literally translated as "mutant" or "freaks." Westerners (or generally people unacquainted with Asian folklore and beliefs) tend to translate "youkai" as "demon." Though "demon" can be a valid translation, it is not an accurate one. Most of the so-called "demons" in Inuyasha are fictional, with an exception of a few (mostly the ones that are commonly known in Asia). Since the term "youkai" is often heavily tied to Buddhism (and even Hinduism), it would be easier to understand the concept of "youkai" by studying Buddhism. The last two words of the title itself, "夜叉" (yasha), is the Japanese pronounciation of the Sanskrit word "Yaksa" (a particular type of demon who eats men).

I have never seen "yokai" translated as "mutant" or "freak". While "mutant", with its connotations of changing, may be a somewhat faithful translation of the similar word "obake", it is not appropriate for "yokai", and its superhero and science fiction connotations in America make it unsuitable for a folkloric term at any rate. Shikino 15:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Toriyama's Invention of Yokai?

I for one would like to see some sources on that, whether in English or in Japanese. While Toriyama is responsible for establishing the basic appearances of many yokai in his Hyakki Yakou, I've never heard or read anywhere else that he invented any of them himself. Shikino 19:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Closest I can come to proof of this is that Sekien (like some Japanese artists, he's more often called by his given name) admits to creating some creatures in his descriptions. Like for Korōka, seen here, he more or less says that he's never heard of a lantern-fire spook, but he thought it up in a dream. Kotengu 小天狗 23:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Some other creatures Sekien said that he saw in dreams: Hahakigami, Bake no Kawagoromo, Nyūbachibō and Hyōtankozō, Nyoijizai, Hossumori, Honekarakasa, Boroboroton, Heiroku, Chokuboron, Chirizuka Kaiō, Kaichigo, Kamioni, Kameosa, Taimatsumaru, Tsunohanzō, Narigama, Mukumukabagi, Ungaikyō, Osakōburi, Kutsutsura, Kurayarō, Yamaoroshi, Zenfushō, Fukuro Mujina, Fuguruma Yōhi, Furu Utsubo, Bura Bura, Kotofurunushi, Gotoku Neko, Eritate Goromo, Tenjōname, Abumiguchi, Sazae Oni, Kinu Tanuki, Kyōrinrin, Menreiki, Minowaraji, Shamichōrō, Shōgorō, Shiro Uneri, Biwabokuboku, Mokugyo Daruma, Setodaishō, and Suzuhikohime. Of course he lifted the likenesses for some of these from earlier Hyakki Yakō scrolls and likely was inspired by other things, but the fact remains that a lot of well-known yōkai "types" seem to be artistic rather than folkloric entities. Kotengu 小天狗 00:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Picture?

I think the picture on this article should be changed. Currently it is a picture of Oiwa, who is a yurei and not a yokai. If no one objects, I will hunt around for a better picture. MightyAtom 04:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right; change it, if you can find something better. —Nightstallion (?) 10:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

OK! I changed the image, and added a few more.MightyAtom 02:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree the image should have been changed, but disagree with the statement that Oiwa is not a yokai. Yes, she is a yurei, but in her manifestation as a lantern, she is thus a yokai. Shikino 20:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] For future reference: Dictionary Definition of Yōkai (rough translations)

from here.:

Miraculous phenonema and weird entities which defy human understanding. Tengu, hitotsume-kozō, kappa and other imaginary things. bakemono.

The Japanese wikipedia has a similar, expanded definition:

A yōkai is a supernatural being symbolizing a strange or mysterious phenomenon which humans cannot understand, or otherwise a being from Japanese folklore which demonstrates miraculous abilities that defy common sense. In Europe these beings are called yōsei (fairies).

Tales of oni, tengu, kappa, and other such things remain in great numbers, and so study in the field of folklore advances.

Kotengu 23:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mononoke = youkai?

I'm having difficulty swallowing this bit of info:

The native Japanese word "mononoke" is also sometimes written with the kanji for yōkai.

I don't think so. I can't say for sure, but im 80 - 90% sure this is bad info. Anyone? 213.172.254.119 21:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect as well, since yokai is derived from a Chinese word. Bakemono, another Japanese word in origin, isn't written with the yokai kanji, so why should mononoke? Aha, here's the proof: Hideki's Dictionary Entry for "Mononoke" --unsigned

It may have been referring to an instance of furigana#Punning and double meaning such as in a manga where the author writes whatever he/she wants as the "pronunciation" for a term. Definitely not worthy of inclusion in the article. —Tokek 10:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Good call. It makes a lot of sense that somebody's misunderstanding of the concept of furigana as a mangaka's personalized tool of artistic freedom would lead to this sort of thing. TomorrowTime 22:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ukiyo-e & Youkai

I've been doing youkai research in Japan for a few years now, and just now looked at Wikipedia's pages. I'm surprised that there is no link showing between Ukiyo-e artists and youkai. I think it is essential for people to know the relation, and the important artists such as Kyousai Kawanabe. They didn't do research into youkai as far as I am aware, but they did paint youkai, yuurei, tons of oni, and the like. erin k. 16:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds great! Please add this section! I look forward to reading it. MightyAtom 04:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture credit for Oiwa at top

Go to the picture and look at the talk page. It has been incorrectly credited to Hokuei- it is a Hokusai print. This is one of the interesting things about Ukiyo-e prints- many of the artists copied each other, changing only 1 or 2 details... --erin k. 03:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The stub for the Oiwa san at the top for Japanese Mythology WikiProject on the image page is labeled "Shunkosai Hokuei obake.jpg". It is incorrect, and should be labeled "Katsushika Hokusai obake jpg". I don't know how to fix it, but maybe someone with more experience than I can go in and play with the switches. Just would like to give credit to the correct dead guy. Official title of the painting is Oiwasan お岩さん. I noted the name troubles on the image talk page for it, but maybe if I put it here, someone will see, go in, and correct it. :) Thanx.

--erin k. 18:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the only way to fix it is to re-upload it...unfortunately my connection is complete crap right now and the image won't upload all the way. If you've got a commons account you can help by saving the original and then going here and clicking the "Upload a new version of this file" link to replace it. Kotengu 小天狗 21:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resemblance of Youkai to Western Fae?

The similarities have always struck me, including ties to nature, the fact that they are dangerous and beneficent but always capricious, tendency to need to be "invited in," shape-shifting qualities, etc...is this anything worth mentioning in the article (perhaps as a "see also?") or does it qualify too much as original research? Any thoughts about the possibility of adding something about the similarities, especially since it could shed light on the concept for Youkai for those more familiar with western supernatural spirits?

Edit: Looking at the comments that cite the Japanese entry, it even equates Youkai with western Faeries (Yousei). So there really may be some precedent for including the comparison.

--Sailor Titan 03:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)