Talk:Xueta

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Contents

[edit] Archives and a note on the history of this article

  • The current article is basically a translation of the Catalan-language article.
  • The old article has been moved to Xueta/old; material from it can be merged, if it is worth recovering.
  • Talk that pertained to the old version of the article is now at Talk:Xueta/Archive1.
  • Talk:Xueta/translation is an archive of the discussions during that translation process.

[edit] Open issues 27 February 2007

  • Merge any material worth merging from Xueta/old. - Jmabel | Talk 00:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Per Talk:Xueta/translation, there are still some doubts about the precise meaning in this context of the Catalan verb relaxar. Clearly, it is roughly in the sense given at Spanish Inquisition#Sentencing, but in a few cases the context here suggests that the definition given there is not precisely correct.
  • The article we translated did not provide inline citations, so those would be very welcome. Quite likely, the long list of references provided would be a fruitful place to find most of these.
  • We ended up simply dropping an obscure passage in the Catalan that read significatiu fou l'episodi del “capellà Mosca” que desprès de diversos intents aconseguí un púlpit on predicar a St. Felip Neri, l’episodi finalitzà, dies desprès, amb l’assalt a l’església i amb la trona purificada en un fogueró. ("significant was the episode of 'Chaplain Mosca' who after several attempts gained a pulpit to preach the words of St. Philip Neri. The episode ended, days later, with an assault on the church and with the pulpit purified in a bonfire.") Its touted significance is, frankly, unclear. In our discussion at Talk:Xueta/translation, the eventual consensus was that 'Chaplain Mosca' was a Xueta, and that it was totally irrelevant that he preached the words of St. Philip Neri as against anyone else. However, it would get well into "original research" to say so; the article flows fine without it, but if someone can find out more and flesh this out, then maybe it belongs in the article.

- Jmabel | Talk 00:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

  • The correct translation for "un púlpit on predicar a St. Felip Neri" is "a pulpit to preach in St. Felip Neri". This is the name of an old gothic church in Barcelona, close to the Cathedral.--Joan sense nick 23:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
it could be in but could also be preach the words of, and that seems the case here. Barcelona is obviously out of context here. Mountolive | Talk 23:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I've read the catalan version now (not only the quotations) and I agree: Barcelona is out of context here. But I insist that "predicar a St. Felip Neri" means the place (is there a St. Felip Neri's church in Palma?). To mean preach the words of you'll use "predicar la paraula de/ les idees de" or even "predicar St. Felip Neri", but not "a". And the Catalan language used in this article is quite good. --Joan sense nick 01:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
In any case, we've dropped the passage; unless someone can find something more substantive on the affair, the meaning of the obscure sentence is irrelevant. - Jmabel | Talk 01:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • The catalan user ca:Usuari_Discussió:Lliura, who declares himself the author of the article you are translating, sends to my discussion page some comments on these obscure passages. I've copied it here, and I've also translated it to Spanish (I guess your Spanish is better than my English, and I'm a bit busy now). Maybe it can be useful to you. --Joan sense nick 23:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
St. Felip Neri és el convent mercedari de Palma que, lògicament, té una església adjunta.
El capellà Mosca fou un sacerdot de nom Josep Aguiló, alies Capellà Mosca.
La importància de l’episodi radica en que el simple fet que dit sacerdot fes el sermó litúrgic o homilia, cosa que succeïa per primera vegada des del s. XVII com a mínim, dugué com a conseqüència un avalot popular que culminà en la crema i destrucció de la trona per destruir la seva impuresa (la trona és un lloc elevat a l’interior de les esglésies, normalment de fusta, on es feien les prèdiques per tal que es facilités l’audició). A l’època hi hagué bastants episodis d’alteració de l’ordre pel tema xueta, però vaig seleccionar aquest per les seves connotacions religioses, ja que aquest ha estat un dels àmbits on la discriminació ha perseverat més. El tema dels sacerdoci dels xuetes és bastant complex si no es coneix bé el funcionament antic del sacerdoci, pero resumint, es podia ser sacerdot però no realitzar totes les funcions pastorals i això és el que passava amb els capellans xuetes y l’episodi del Capellà Mosca fou una alteració de l’”estatu quo” que provocà disturbis.
Veig que també hi ha dubtes sobre el significat de l’expressió “relaxat”. Relaxat és equivalent a la pena de mort. En realitat es una reducció de l’expressió completa “relaxat al braç secular”, eufemisme que reflectia que la pena no era aplicada pròpiament per la Inquisició sinó que es lliurava al condemnat a les autoritats civils que eren els que l'aplicaven. Aquestes però, tenien l’obligació d’executar-la i no hi havia alternativa. A vegades es confon l’execució a la foguera amb l’Acte de Fe (en castellà Auto de fe), però en realitat els Actes de Fe eren una cerimònia religiosa de lectura de les sentencies i altres rituals, que en el cas de la relaxació es celebrava prèviament. L’altra pena major era la de la “reconciliació” que suposava el retorn a l’església, la confiscació de bens i, en alguns casos la pena de presó i/o penes corporals. La reconciliació es duia a terme durant l’Acte de Fe.
Lliura
St. Felip Neri es el convento del orden mercedario de Palma, que logicamente tiene una iglesia adjunta.
El capellan Mosca fue un sacerdote llamado Josep Aguiló, alias Capellà Mosca.
La importancia del episodio radica en que el simple hecho que dicho sacerdote hiciera el sermón litúrgico o homilia, cosa que sucedia por primera vez desde el s. XVII por lo menos, trajo como consecuencia un disturbio popular que culminó en la quema y destrucción de la trona para destruir su impureza (la trona es un sitio elevado en el interior de les iglesias, normalmente de madera, desde donde se hacian las predicas para facilitar su audición). En la época hubo bastantes episodios de alteración del orden por el tema xueta, pero seleccioné este por sus connotaciones religiosas, ya que este ha sido uno de los ámbitos donde la discriminación ha perseverado mas. El tema del sacerdocio de los xuetes es bastante complejo si no se conoce bien el funcionamento antiguo del sacerdocio, pero resumiendo, se podia ser sacerdote pero no realizar todas las funciones pastorales y eso es lo que pasaba con los curas xuetes y el episodio del Capellà Mosca fue una alteración del ”status quo” que provocó disturbios.
Veo que tambien hay dudas sobre el significado de la expresión “relaxat”. Relaxat es equivalente a la pena de muerte. En realidad es una reducción de la expresión completa “relaxat al braç secular”, eufemismo que reflejaba que la pena no era aplicada propiamente por la Inquisición sinó que se entregaba el condenado a las autoridades civiles quienes la aplicaban. Estas, sin embargo, tenian la obligación de ejecutarla y no habia alternativa. A veces se confunde la ejecución en la hoguera con el Auto de Fe, pero en realidad los Autos de Fe eran una ceremonia religiosa de lectura de las sentencias y otros rituales, que en el caso de la relaxació se celebraba previamente. La otra pena mayor era la “reconciliació” que suponia el retorno a la Iglésia, la confiscación de bienes y, en algunos casos la pena de carcel y/o penas corporales. La reconciliació se llevaba a cabo durante el Auto de Fe.
Lliura

In English (quick & dirty translation):

St. Felip Neri is the convent (monastery) of the mercedari [benevolent?] order of Palma, which logically has an adjacent church.
The chaplain Mosca was a priest named Josep Aguiló, alias Capellà Mosca.
The importance of the episode is rooted in the simple fact that said priest gave the liturgical sermon or homily, something that happenned for the first time at least since the 17th century, which brought as a consequence a popular disturbance that culminated in the burning and destruction of the trona (raised pulpit) to destroy its impurity. In this era there were enough episodes of alteration of order by the Xueta theme [that's verbatim, and I don't think much clearer in the original - JM], but I selected this for its religious connotations, simce this has been one of the areas where discrimination has most persevered. The theme of the priest of the Xuetes is complex enough if one doesn't know well the ancient funcionality of the priest, but in summary, one could be priest but not perform all of the pastoral functions and that is what happened with the Xueta [parish] priests and the episode of the Capellà Mosca was an alteration of the ”status quo” that provoked disturbances.
I see that there are also doubts over the significance of the expression “relaxat”. Relaxat is equivalent to the death penalty. In reality, it is a reduction of the complete expression “relaxat al braç secular” ("relaxed to the secular arm"), a euphemism that reflects that the [death] penalty was not applied by the Inquisition itself but that they turned over the condemned to the civil authorities who applied it. These, nevertheless, had the obligation to execute it and had no alternative. At times execution in the bonfire was confounded with the Auto de Fe, but in reality the Autos de Fe were a religious ceremony of the reading of the verdicts and other rituals, which in the case of the "relaxation" were performed previously. The other major penalty was the “reconciliació” ("reconciliation") which supposed return to the Church, the confiscation of goods and, in some cases, a jail sentenceo or corporal punishment. The reconciliació was brought to a head during the Auto de Fe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmabel (talk • contribs) 06:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC).
Lliura
first line: "el convent mercedari de Palma" is the monastery of the Mercedarians religious order in Palma (devoted to the Virgin of La Mercè).--Joan sense nick 22:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

It has been recently removed by an anon user "Hebrew" from the languages in the infobox on the grounds that "the Xuetes never spoke Hebrew". I am not saying that it was the common language but I am sure that, for sure the clerics, did spoke Hebrew and, most probably, virtually all the Xueta population had exposure to Hebrew and were, if not fluent, knowledgeable of this language. I think this language should be restored. Mountolive | Talk 17:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


I am making use of a translator, excuse the errors. With certainty the Hebrew stopped using in the 15th C. and the Xuetes ones are from the 17th C., Baruch Braunstein transcribes the pray them than it collected the Inquisición and none are in Hebrew. Although the majority are translation of pray existing in Hebrew. It has to be thought that the Judaism of the xuetes was, unavoidably, a lot deteriorated. The majority of the authors consider even that with anteriority to the conversion, the Hebrew was only the ritual language and that the maternal languages were the Catalan and the Arab. The books that Rafel Valls used, considerate the rabbi of the community, they were Catholic books related to the Antique Testament and Jewish literature edited in Castilian in Amsterdam writings for Sephardic Jews of the diaspora. No document proves the use of the Hebrew, the only word that turns up is "Adonai"

Lliura

well, actually you and I we may be not so far apart: I am not denying that the main language was Catalan (and, before the Conquest, as you point out, Arabic, something which is not mentioned in the infobox either).
Still, as you say, there was a ritual usage of Hebrew and, since religion was the cohesive factor, I am assuming that most of the Xuetes were exposed to it, let alone the clerics which I assume they were fluent or almost fluent. I am only mentioning the language as a secondary language spoken by Xuetes, if not by all of them, at least by some of them. Mountolive | Talk 21:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


It seems that the Arab was a usual language together with the Catalan until the 15th C..
The Xuetes are not the Majorcan Jews, only a part of their descendants who were punished by the inquisition in the 17th C. and those that with posteriority brought their surnames.
About the Hebrew you could be right until the 15th C. or, like in very late, principles of the 16th C., but the Xuetes do not exist up until the inquisitorial trials of ends of the 17th C..
Recently a new book where you can read that of the study of the processes, more of 200, only 4 or 5 had a knowledge of the product religion of readings. The rest only knew a few rituals they inherited in the family area, consciousness of the Jewish origin and a few theological convictions (negation of the divinity of Jesuscrist and the Trinity, belief in the messiah...) and the desire to access freely to a religion which they knew only that they knew fragmentarily. Independently of the opinion that each has of the inquisition, they did very intense research, the processes of the xuetas contain in thousands of pages all the information on the religious practices. The process has between 200 and 1000 pages, a detail as the use of the Hebrew language would be in them.
For the Xuetes the access to the culture until the 19th C. was very limited, only basic literacy and arithmetical knowledge for the trade.
All the disposable historical information denies the knowledge of the Hebrew, to contradict it would be necessary some evidence.
Lliura
The distinction you make between Xuetes and Majorcan Jews makes sense to me. Besides, maybe you are correct and the reduced numbers of those who spoke Hebrew do not justify the Hebrew mention anyway. Mountolive | Talk 00:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake

The text contains an error, the paragraph that it starts: “In 1674, the prosecutor of the Mallorca tribunal sent a report to the Supreme Inquisition in which he accused the Mallorcan Crypto-Jews of 33 charges...” really it is of 1644, different authors (Braunstein, Selke, Pérez...), they give the date of 1674, but Juan de Fontamar, author of the report, was prosecutor of the The Inquisition of Mallorca between 1632 and 1649. In the entry of Catalan Wikipedia the corresponding paragraphs have been corrected.

Lliura::

[edit] Blood

I notice that

(literally "purity of blood", most commonly referred to in English by the Spanish language expression limpieza de sangre)

was changed to

(literally "purity of blood", most commonly referred to in English as cleanliness of blood)

Certainly, if someone is looking for a narrowly English-language expression, that is the one used, but in my reading on the topic, English-language texts typically use the Spanish expression. I won't claim an exhaustive knowledge of the literature, but I've certainly read extensively on the topic and attended a few relevant conferences (not specific to the Xuetes, but to conceptions of race and, especially, to Jewish identity). - Jmabel | Talk 17:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)