Talk:X Japan

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the X Japan article.
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Good article X Japan has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
May 4, 2008 Good article nominee Listed
To-do list for X Japan: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Expand "Musical style" section.

Contents

[edit] Complete Singles / Ho Son Stereo

Isn't Ho Son a taiwanese company wich sells bootlegs? So ... is the "Complete Singles" Album an official release? Oricon Style also doesn't list it [1]. Any thoughts? - X 19:46, 15 July 2007

I was just reading through the article and it says that art of life has only been played two times for live audiences. However if you click the link on the art of life's page it says that it has been played three times. Maybe I am just reading it wrong.

24.192.118.247 19:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Visual Kei thing

Don't know... I thought that after the Jun thing, everyhting was OK in the X-related articles but it seems that not. First of all, for the 'new' ones, my English is bad but I still can say something.

  • Do you really think that Visual Kei is a genre? Let's imagine that X Japan is Visual Kei, please, compare X Japan music with the one of Moi dix Mois (Visual kei), is it the same musical style? No, Visual Kei is only related to the clothes not to the music. So, now we have that VK is not a genre, now let's see about X Japan.
  • A clear example of Visual Kei is Malice Mizer, let's compare again: the Visual Kei main pic on the article and some of the X Japan pictures. Again it's not the same style. X was created in 1982 and Malice Mizer in 1994, ok? X Japan was just a hevay metal band with some kind of glam costumes, they were heavily influenced by the 'visual rock or just visual' style, which it's thei style, not visual kei. kei is a japanese word which means 'from-' visual mean means 'from visual' visual kei comes from visual, X Japan style.

Sources that X was a visual/visual rock band: http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/98/0522/feat1.html, http://www.iyashi-no-concert.com/interview.html

Bye bye!Darkcat21 17:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Darkcat21, that the recent additions did little to improve the article. While I would consider the terms "visual kei" and "visual rock" largely interchangeable (the latter at least hinting at the musical style performed), the lead got unnecessarily bloated with tangential information, as well as excessive quoting and redundancy among citations, neither justified per guideline nor strong precedent (and one might want to consider WP:COPYVIO).
The lead has been edited to address these issues and to explicitly attribute X Japan's key-role in the visual kei movement to the sources that state it ("widely credited for"), along with the information, that the group was among the early originally independent musicians in Japan to succeed on mainstream level, as stated in the NY Times source. Unlike, i.e. later branches or demographics of visual kei this is actually relevant to the article's subject and keep in mind that Wikipedia is a hyperlinked document, hence further information on other subjects is usually only one click away for readers who would like to learn more.
On a side note, Darkcat, could you provide a source for the Catacombs soundtrack being released through Extasy, so we can put that back into the Extasy Records article? - Cyrus XIII 12:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I changed the wording on the article because it implied that because of X Japan's indies sucess, they were picked up by a major label and had mainstream success later. They had mainstream success (hit the major charts) while they were still on Yoshiki's label. Denaar 17:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More detailed rationale

With the article receiving a lot of edits recently, quite a bit of uncited material has found its way in, most of it related to the group's early history. Also, the section on the group's stylistic development severely lacked in overall tone and neutrality, listing awards out of context and under almost unintelligible monikers is practically useless to our readers and Jrock Ink. does not primarily deal with either the band or any of its members. A style section with a move level-headed approach would certainly be a worthwhile addition though, same goes for mentioning the more outstanding awards in the history section with proper context. - Cyrus XIII 22:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Darkcat21 contacted me on my talk page regarding some of the recent changes to the article, so apparently a more detailed rationale is once again in order:

  • Verifiability (WP:V/WP:RS): Not all the information in the previous version of the article was actually covered by the available sources.
  • Neutrality (WP:NPOV): Some passages were written in an inappropriate, enthusiastic tone. Also, primary/non-independent sources are inadequate to assert impact and success of a subject, due to an obvious conflict of interest. See also WP:TONE, WP:PSTS.
  • Notability (WP:N): Just because a subject is notable, not every conceivable bit of information related to it is as well. A meticulous month-by-month retelling of the band's early history is of no merit for inclusion in a general purpose encyclopedia, as such details have little to no bearing on the records and career the group eventually became notable for. See also WP:NOT, WP:CRUFT.

That said, I'd appreciate if attempts to discuss such matters were made before repeated reverts occur and that even these were done with a little more care (glad to see a recently uploaded image being orphaned right away). – Cyrus XIII (talk) 16:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That's all good and well, Cyrus, but lots of the information which you have entered is false and sourced from unofficial sources. For example: Sugizo is not schedualled to appear at any of X Japan's lives. Where did you get this information from? It's simply incorrect, this has not been announced by any official source (inside or outside of Japan). As someone who is attending all three of X Japan's performances at Tokyo Dome I have kept up-to-date with all official information regarding them (including from contacts in Japan). If you are going to claim a high ground and make whole-sale changes at least make sure that they fit your own criteria. JinecouO.N.E (talk) 22:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that bit about Sugizo's potential involvement in these concerts was entered by an anonymous editor (from Spain, according to Whois) on January 21. You have edited the article on two occasions since, yet apparently never felt the need to challenge either that information or the source it was provided with before – odd.
Also, lets be a little more careful in our choice of words here. What do you mean by "unofficial source"? There are of course sources that do not qualify as reliable for all the reasons outlined in WP:V and WP:RS. Yet if "unofficial" is supposed to mean unauthorized, in the sense of not directly affiliated with or approved by the artists and their label, then we are simply dealing with a third party source. And these are quite often a whole lot more desirable than official sources, i.e. if one want to assert the supposedly groundbreaking success of a band, even in the earliest of its independent days. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 00:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

As you may or my have noticed, my contributions to Wikipedia as of late have been few and far between. I simply do not have the time right now to fix, alter and rationalise each one of the errors in this article which have forgone your criteria. Perhaps you should learn to be more careful as to what you deem to be verifiable if you insist on make whole-sale changes. I can conceed that the article was in a sorry state before your edits but in terms of a correct flow of information it is hardly in a better state now.

Oh and by the way; if the last comment was as intentfully sniding as it came across, perhaps you should be a little more informed before you speak. Jrock Revolution, the source used to "assert the supposedly groundbreaking success of a band, even in the earliest of its independent days" is an official website. It is owned and is in direct affiliation with one Mr Yoshiki Hayashi. Furthermore, the website and its attatched entities are extremely strict on the authenticity of information it reports on. JinecouO.N.E (talk) 10:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course I am aware of their affiliation with Mr. Hayashi, which makes them an official source alright but also inherently biased. Personally, as a fan of the music, I appreciate what they do, but when it comes to the editorial work here and asserting the notability, impact and success of the band, we still need to stick to sources that are not bankrolled or in any other way influenced by one of the members. This should be self-evident. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 10:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, I really see how that works! I mean, why follow an autobiography when a nice third-party and remotely researched biography will do? After all, what would we possibly need official information for? The idea is ludicrous!

You are a knob. JinecouO.N.E (talk) 19:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Should hide really be in the "former member" section?

I would classify hide as a "current" member. I think hide's participation in the 2008 reunion concerts by means of video/holograms backs this up. Hide is also listed as a current member of the band on the official Japanese myspace site as well as on Japanese wikipedia. --122.29.137.163 (talk) 16:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but this does not change the fact that the man has been dead for almost ten years. Listing a deceased musician as a current member of an active band would just be inaccurate. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 17:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree. See articles on the Beatles, Nirvana etc... X Japan disbanded in 1997 before hide's death. The band is making a limited comeback but have made no attempts to replace hide, instead they held a live concert with him spending millions of dollars recreating him holographically. The new song IV also uses his guitar parts. If the band decide to stay together and replace hide or stop including him in their future plans, that is different. For now I don't think hide can be thought of as a "former member" of the group in the same way as Taiji. --122.29.137.163 (talk) 04:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
According to the template manual of {{Infobox Musical artist}}, all members of a band should be listed in the Past_members field, if the group is inactive. While the articles you mention do not conform to that convention, in their case, the Current_members field still reflects the last lineup at the end of the period of time we consider them to have been active. The Beatles disbanded in 1970, long before John Lennon was shot and Nirvana ended with Kurt Cobain's death in 1994. Hence in what fashion we list the names of the X Japan members depends entirely on whether or not the time from 2007 and onward qualifies as "active" . Given that the group has been releasing music, played live and intends to perform in Europe in July, I'd say this is very much the case. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 20:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I am not familiar with the Wikipedia standards so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. However, I believe that the page as it stands now is incorrect and would offend the band members and fans. I will post a note in Japanese wikipedia mentioning this so that Japanese fans can participate in the discussion over here as well. --122.29.137.163 (talk) 14:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It is in good practice to understand that Wikipedia is by no circumstances here to please any parties. You may want to research the decision to keep images of Mohammed in the respective Wikipedia article, even in the face of monstrous protest from the Muslim community. As it is an encyclopedia, not an extension of the band, the facts should only be presented in a neutral manner (see WP:NPOV). --Jacob Talk 20:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think this is a valid comparison at all. Wikipedia can only present the facts. Hide died, that is a fact. That should be written. I think the band decides who is in the band, no matter what form that takes. Please see today's article in Nikkan Sports where Yoshiki stresses that the band has 5 members including hide and that if a new member were to join he would be the "6th member". [here] Even if everyone decides that the template must not be changed under any circumstances, I think this needs to be noted in the article. Any comments? --TokyoAM (talk) 10:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I agreed that the band decides who is in the band. During the live 2008, they still introduce hide as the guitarist of X Japan. 218.102.140.46 (talk) 05:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About what happened on 3/28

I have revised the article slightly, as it stated that the concert was cancelled after 8 songs due to Yoshiki collapsing. The show was not cancelled although several songs were cut throughout the set list (but not at the end). Yoshiki did collapse but only after finishing all of the song "Art of Life" that X Japan had planned to play that night. Yoshiki later comments in the press conference available on the X Japan myspace site something like: "Yes that song was supposed to end at that point, but I was so mad at the Tokyo Dome officials after having to cut so many songs from the set list, I actually passed out at the end." --TokyoAM (talk) 14:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I reverted the change for now, as it did not reflect the sources currently cited by the article. Can you provide a link to said MySpace comment? Note this would be a first-party source and the information referenced through it would have to be presented in a way that reflects that circumstance. Also, given that this is the English language Wikipedia, information should ideally be referenced through English sources. This is certainly not always possible, especially considering the origin of this article's subject, but in case you happen to know about an English news article that quoted said comment, it would certainly be for the benefit of our readers (and fellow editors). – Cyrus XIII (talk) 15:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted the changes back again. The lack of sources right now, especially in English, is obviously a problem. In the coming weeks, obviously interviews will come out in magazines and books and we will be able to write here exactly what happened on the 28th. Until then I suggest we steer clear of any explanations of what happened. Therefore I consider this update that does not make clear the reason for the shortened program to be the best one. --TokyoAM (talk) 09:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
That would work. I have slightly tweaked the wording, so that the article does not make any presumptions on an intended setlist either, it now reflects fairly accurately what the available sources (the WOWOW broadcast in particular) show us. Also, when you revert an edit, please be mindful of intermediate revisions. Changing the [[sv:X Japan]] interwiki link back to [[sv:X-Japan]] is no big deal but still unnecessary. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 09:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I have tweaked the entry some more. Watching the WOWOW life broadcast it is clear from the context that this is the last song. For one, it was already the first encore. Secondly, Toshi introduced Art of Life would be the last song of the night. In Tokyo it is important that events end before the public transit system shuts down for the night. This is why baseball games end in ties there, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.101.98 (talk) 17:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but we need to work here with what we've got. The intent to only perform a shortened variant of said song is unreferenced, so is the nature of the Tokyo transit system and its effect on public events and even if that bit was to be taken at face value, drawing conclusions would still be a synthesis, instead of just citing previously published information. Lets apply the KISS principle until further sources surface. One of the band members collapsed around the evening's eighth song and the concert came to an abrupt end – that simple. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 02:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why the former member from X in early day is not include

Why Jun,Hikaru,Tomoyuki,Rokuo is not include,Some one who have their EP please scan the cover and post on this! They exist in this band! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.9.136.208 (talk) 19:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Hi, I'm your GA Reviewer. I can see this article's been at WP:GAN for over two weeks now. Must be that backlog, I've got one tied up myself in there. Anyway, I'm going to look over the article and tell you what I think.

[edit] General Overview

The prose looks really good, and I'd say you've met criterion 1 from the article. I have some sourcing issues, though. I'll list the issues in a checklist under this general overview. The article is broad in its coverage, neutral, and stable, meeting criteria 3, 4, and 5 all in that way. I've got some issues with 6, but we'll address that below.

[edit] Issues

For organizational purposes, I'm going to make a quick checklist of things that need to be fixed before I can pass the article:

  • The 1993-1997 section needs more sources. A large part of the first paragraph is unsourced.
  • There's an unsourced paragraph in the 1982-1992 section. That paragraph needs sources.
  • Can you source the statement about X Japan forming while the two members were in high school?
  • I would be careful about using an IMDb reference, many people consider it an unreliable source.
  • The rest of the sources look good, but all the sources from jrockrevolution.com don't link me to any information about what is being cited. This needs to be fixed.
  • I don't think you've got a legitimate claim of fair use for the four music samples. There needs to be context within the article that justifies each individual music sample. My recommendation is this: create a Musical Style section with text and sources, and use the samples (as few as possible) to show the musical style. As it is, you don't have any justification in the article for these samples.

Given these issues, I've decided to put this article on hold for a week so the issues can be resolved. When you are finished, please feel free to contact me on my talk page and I will take another look. If you have questions or comments, you can contact me at my talk page. Thanks. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 16:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sound samples

I suggest putting the sound samples in the body of the article, alongside the relevant text. This makes the samples more informative and strengthens the fair use rationale. Tuf-Kat (talk) 01:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

That might just work. I'm in the middle of fixing all the verifiability issues and once I'm done, ask Red Phoenix about that option. The samples are down for now, but I have backups and will see to re-uploading them, if they are deleted in the meantime. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 14:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Hold Review

I'll take another look tomorrow when I've got time, unless you guys need more time. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 02:48, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say the WP:V and WP:NFC related issues you listed earlier have by and large been resolved. I have added a to-do list above, in order to facilitate future improvements, so if you have any ideas for the article beyond the GA review, your two cents would be appreciated. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 10:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I think you guys need a Musical Style section to meet criteria 3a of the good article criteria. I know you guys have been talking about it, and if you need more time today, I'll extend the hold for a couple more days. But yep, It looks like the WP:V issues have been taken care of, at least. I'll take another look at the images and tell you about any WP:NFC issues I find. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 14:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Since you consider the style section necessary for GA level already, an extension of the hold would be nice, yes. Shall we say next Wednesday? – Cyrus XIII (talk) 15:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good, I'll extend the hold. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 15:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
For personal reasons I have to delay the assessment until tomorrow, sorry but I've been busy in real life. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 22:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] One More Thing

This article looks so much better, but one more thing needs to be done before I can pass it as a GA. In the Musical Style section, someone needs to at least mention both songs used as samples in the prose. One was mentioned but the other wasn't. After this is done, contact me on my talk page and I'll be happy to pass the article. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 15:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Congrats, guys, GA passed. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 05:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 08:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] X Japan image of fans?

Does this really have any relevance to the article? It doesn't demonstrate any illustration of said topic matter nor is there any X Japan related material in the image at all. ~Ambrosia- talk 02:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I must agree. While it is always nice to have free images for an article, the relevance of this particular one is tangential at best. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 07:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)