Talk:Wrocław

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[edit] Tendentious language

I got the impression that this article is written in a tendentious language, especially when it comes to the 19th and 20th century.

Such statements as

In August 1920 Germans devastated Breslau's Polish School and burned its Polish Library, and in 1923 the city was a scene of antisemitic riots. Breslauers honoured Adolf Hitler with the title of honorary citizen of the city. and Most of the Polish elites also left during 1920s and 1930s, and Polish leaders who remained were sent to German concentration camps. By 1939 the city became almost entirely Germanised.

are tendentious language and show the intention to give a justification: the Germans deserved their fate and Poles had the right to take their land and property after the war. Hundreds of German cities honoured Hitler as honorary citizen in the Nazi era. I guess that many Polish cities honoured Josef Stalin as honorary citizen during the Gomułka era and many North Korean cities certainly have Kim Il-sung as a honorary citizen. This is not very astonishing in a totalitarian regime. Breslau was not a Nazi stronghold before 1933. Politics was dominated by the social democrats who supported the Weimar republic.

I think a "neutral" standpoint should clearly acknowledge the following: Breslau (as it was known before the war in the English and French-speaking world) was an undoubtedly German city with an only small Polish minority (I don't know where the number of 10% Poles at the end of WW I comes from). The Nazi crimes and their stupid suppression of other traditions regarded as "un-German" are beyond any doubt. The expulsion and killing of hundreds of thousand German civilians alone in Silesia at the end of the war were the results of Red Army war crimes, stupid and irresponsible Nazi fanatism and Stalins refusal to hand back the Soviet-occupied Eastern Polish areas to Poland and his attempt to try to inflame permanent hatred between Germans and Poles in the future. The thinking was: Germans will never acccept the Oder-Neisse line, so the Poles will always be forced to align with the Russians and stay a satellite in the Russian sphere of influence. Even for many Polish politicians at that time it was unimaginable that cities like Breslau and Stettin would become Polish because it seemed unthinkable that so many million people could be forcibly expulsed ("ethnically cleansed" in modern terms).

To put it shortly: Wrocław/Breslau is now a Polish city but the Poles should deal honestly with history. And this history was clearly a German history between the Middle Ages and 1945. And the mass expulsion, killing and raping of hundreds of thousand or million German civilians should be named that what it was: an immense war crime and crime against humanity. This is also one of many aspects of the history of Silesia. -- Furfur February 12th 2007

"killing of hundreds of thousand German civilians alone in Silesia" - an example of German type honesty. Poles praized Stalin under Soviet terror, what was the name of the country which invided Germany in 1933? The Naziland? Xx236 14:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have been following this and many other discussions about German/Polish historical topics. It's a real shame that there is so much nastiness and vindictiveness it them. I am a Silesian by birth, of a German (Ostpommern) father and Polish (Cracow) mother. My education has primarily been in Australia from an independent perspective, so I see myself as an objective viewer.

Discussing pre-19th century political history is very fraught since the notions of nationality didn't emerge until then - in medieval Hanseatic Cracow (eg) the majority of people may have been German ethnically and linguistically, but most likely saw themselves as Cracovites (i hope that's correct) first, and under the subjectship of whoever was the King of Poland at the time - even though the king was sometimes not Polish: Henry Valois = French/Swiss; Stefan Batory = Hungarian; the Vasas = Swedish etc. The same applied more or less everywhere. The Plantagenets were French, Tudors Welsh, Stuarts Scottish... Even to this day the British royals are actually ethnically a German family.

The point I'm making is that prior to the rise of nationalism in the 19th century, ethnic nationality didn't count for much. Calling a city whose national provenance is controversial (like Gdansk/Danzig) Polish as opposed to German in a particular historical period primarily refers to royal belonging, not ethnicity or language. That's because the people at the time would overwhelmingly identify with that belonging rather than ethnicity. This is contrary to present day when such identification is primarily ethnic. That's why critique of pre 19C history aling nationalistic lines doesn't make sense.

There are really 4 dimensions to calling a place German, Polish or anything else. Ethnicity, language, geography and political belonging. You can call (eg) Prague a German city in some of these dimensions, and Czech/Bohemian in others.

There is too much nationalistic fervour in these articles and discussions. It is true that Polish authors may be unsympathetic to the cleansing of Germans postwar - that isn't necessarily their fault since such historical facts were largely glossed over in the Communist teaching of history. Likewise German authors understanably resent the postwar border moving to the Oder-Neisse. Neither is automatically being deliberately biased.

The point of WP is to state those views in an objective way. There is nothing wrong with an article including a section on differing historical views of a city.

I for one hope that the continuing integration of European countries in the EU will slowly assign to the past these nationalistically-motivated views of OUR JOINT history.

-- Gabe76 February 21st 2007

After mass rapes of the female German population. Who did rape - Poles or rather Red Army soldiers?Xx236 13:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nazi years

The article doesn't inform about the Nazi period - destruction of the Synagogue, concentration and forced labour camps, executions. At the same time the article suggests that pre-war terror was stronger than it was, maybe it's the result poor editing.Xx236 14:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In the end, the only plane to use it was that of the fleeing Gauleiter Hanke

There are two other versions - the plane started near Jahrhunderthalle or Museum.Xx236 15:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It appears that none of these versions is correct: Davies' history (p. 31) mentions an earlier evacuation using this airstrip. He cites page 500 of volume 4 of Gleiss's Breslauer Apokalypse 1945 (which sounds like quite a piece of reading :) ). HenryFlower 11:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Second ethnic cleansing

Thanks, User talk:136.199.8.42, for your changes of 26 March; I assume you meant them constructively and have a couple of questions.

It is not entirely clear (to me, anyhow) how the closing of the school and the “second ethnic cleansing in twenty years”—I assume this time of Germans—are related. As the sentence stands, the closing of the school and the cleansing seem to be in a cause-and-effect relationship, but I think it was more probably the other way around: Germans (or German speakers) had become too few to support the school. Could you tell me whether:

  • the school was closed by the authorities to suppress use of German, or because Wrocław’s German-speaking community had become too small to support the school?
  • the Wrocław’s speaking German community had shrunk because the remaining Germans had assimilated into the Polish population, left the city on their own (e.g., by moving to the GDR or FRG), left city because of oppression (perceived or otherwise), or been forced out of the area by the authorities or the local non-German population?

If you can, please provide a source for the information (including if the source is the one already cited). Thanks for your help, Jim_Lockhart 13:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I see this has been entirely removed without comment... Jim_Lockhart 13:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] St. Vincent's Benedictine Abbey and Peter Włast

Can't find anything on this abbey and I'm not sure that it's even styled correctly. Is it the church and monastery covered by this and this article and shown at right? If it is, I can fix the prose. Also, who was Peter Włast and why was he important? The German Wikipedia article on Wrocław does not mention him, nor does it mention the two settlements referred to in the section of the English article under discussion. (Can't find his name in the Polish Wikipedia article, either; but then I can’t read Polish!). Any help would be appreciated. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 13:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Piotr Włostowic (Włost) is in fact mentioned in Polish Wikipedia: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_W%C5%82ostowic

Yes, very nice. Thank you! There is a corresponding English article, so I may be able to source the information I need there. Could you tell me whether the church being referred to is indeed the one in the photo? Thanks! :) Jim_Lockhart 11:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes and no :) It IS a St. Vincent's church accompanied by former monastery (then German appellate court [1] and today faculty of Polish Philology Wrocław University) covered in the articles you mention, but it has nothing to do with Włast. As you can check for yourself, this church was founded 1232, while Włast died 1153. As stated here, [2] the (Catholic) church and abbey founded by him were destroyed 1529 by decision of the protestant city board on the pretext of approaching Turk army that could use it as a base, as it was located beyond city walls. The only artifact left after that complex is a Roman entrance [3] incorporated in 1546 onto the wall of Maria Magdalena church [4] --JJR PL (talk) 20:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] that of the fleeing Gauleiter Hanke

There are at least three other stories about the start of the plane - park, stadium or Castle Square. Davies isn't an authoritative source. Xx236 09:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 Memorial

I read on the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 page there is a memorial in wrocław, maybe this should be mentioned somewhere on this page


[edit] Etymology

I doubt that the city´s name was Wrocław in the 12th century, as the letter ł didn´t exist then. --195.170.185.50 17:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quote from Hartmann Schedel’s Nuremberg Chronicle

I checked the quote from Hartmann Schedel’s Nuremberg Chronicle (which you can find here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Schedelsche_Weltchronik_d_234.jpg), and the quote on this page here left out a few very important words. The full quote is:
"Doch ist ihenßhalb 8 adern die polnisch Zung in mererm Geprauch."
I'm a German but have problems to understand it. "ihenßhalb" is a forgotten word. I compared it with other pages in the Chronicle and it seems to be a geographic description, something like outside or above. I think the next sign is a 8, and "adern" means veins or wires. This doesn't make lot of sense. On other pages of the Chronicle the mysterious word "ihenßhalb" is often used in conjunction with rivers, which means that "adern" could also mean the river Oder, something like the 8 arms of the Oder(?).
I think this statement could also mean that Polish was spoken outside of the city on the banks of the river. But i'm no linguist. Since this is the opposite of the current quote its probably a better idea to delete this sentence... or ask a german linguist. Karasek (talk) 18:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polonization after the war?

The destruction of the Polish School and Polish Library by Germans before the war is mentioned, but where is the destruction of the distinctive German culture by Poles after the war? As far as I know the city "enjoyed" a pretty extensive Polonisation, with the demolition of almost all german monuments, the removal and demolition of many neogothic and even baroque church interiors, the destruction of prussian architecture and almost all german cemeteries between 1970 and 1972? And not to forget reconstruction efforts which tried to recreate a certain "Piast style" instead of the situation before 1945. Karasek (talk) 20:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The city was a sea of ruins after the battle between Soviet forces and stubborn Nazi forces that refused to surrender, almost no building in Wroclaw remained undamaged if not even destroyed. A remarkable fact is that Poles restored some landmarks from German takeover times, despite the history of discrimination and opression native Polish people endured at the hands of German arrivals and colonists in the past(for example ban of Polish student organisations, mocking of Poles by University officials etc) .

--Molobo (talk) 23:26, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Molobo, are Karasek's statements regarding monuments, neogothic church interiors, and cemeteries correct, or not correct? Are they partially correct? Dr. Dan (talk) 04:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, my statements are based on an article published in the newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza. A polish source. I can't offer the original article, only the german translation (sorry): http://www.dpg-brandenburg.de/nr17/breslau.htm (note the quoted sources). Karasek (talk) 12:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the link and information. I'm still interested in Molobo responding to my question. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
BTW: it seems almost impossible to add information from this source. The source clearly states that, for instance, the cemeteries were destroyed, yet everything which even suggests a destruction gets removed as POV. Wonder if the destruction of the Polish House (which I don't deny!) isn't POV either. Maybe it was just a temporary closing? Childish. Karasek (talk) 09:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Since the city was orginaly Polish the correct title should be De-germanisation.--Molobo (talk) 21:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

No Molobo, the city was "originally" Moravian/Bohemian. Karasek (talk) 06:33, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Dear Karasek, this perfectly known to me, thank you for agreeing that Germans never were the original inhabitansts. Now Poles as West Slavs in that time had little differences with what later would be described as Moravians and Bohemians, however it is true that for a time in WW1 the Czech politicians believed Wrocław should again become Czech(I can gladly source it if needed). Neverthless the original inhabitants of the city before Germans, Poles were the ones that reverted its Germanisation.--Molobo (talk) 08:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
There are still plenty of German buildings in Wroclaw. I walked from the Hauptbahnhof to the Ring this afternoon and saw at least a dozen. You can't mistake that Prussian red-brick civic architecture, or those art nouveau facades. The Landeshaus on Gartenstrasse (Pilsudsliego) is a fine example, although it now has a large Polish eagle on the front. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 20:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mixed ethnicity or pan-slavist ideology?

By this time the inhabitants of mixed ancestry had become predominantly german.

What mixed ethnicity? It was a almost entirely urban German population and German (or latin) speaking from its beginnigs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.157.29.20 (talk) 16:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This was my attempt to clarify things. The "inhabitants of mixed Silesian, Bohemian, Moravian, and often of Polish ancestry" were also colonists and settlers, and moreover, the "mixed Silesian, Bohemian an Moravian ancestry" could mean Germans too. And the "German colonists and settlers" weren't outsiders, at that time they were burghers of the city for centuries. It is tendentious and I tried to tone down the wording. Karasek (talk) 13:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Antisemitism in Breslau and Poland

, and in 1923 the city was a scene of antisemitic riots.[1]

Yes of course. Better you work on a in-depth analysis of Polish antisemitic riots of the 19th and 20th century all over Polish cities. And hope you don't forget to mention Polish terror a —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.157.29.20 (talk) 16:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Antisemitism in Breslau and Poland

, and in 1923 the city was a scene of antisemitic riots.[1]

Yes of course. Better you work on a in-depth analysis of Polish antisemitic riots of the 19th and 20th century all over Polish cities. And hope you don't forget to mention Polish terror against millions of Germans, Ukrainians and Jews after WW I, during and after WW II, before you quote dubious sources regarding a city which was completely destroyed by Poles and whose left back population was murdered by the 10s of thousands by Poles! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.157.29.20 (talk) 16:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Breslau in 1939

This is very interesting. Probably a private documentary made by a German officer in the summer of 1939. Excellent quality. You can see how the city looked like a few weeks (?) before the World War II. There's a view of Ostrow Tumski and a bicycle ride through the Krzyki borough. I put the film on the webpage of the Wroclaw local public radio:

http://www.prw.pl/articles/view/3447/zobacz-jak-wygladal-wroclaw-w-1939-roku

Radionauta (talk) 20:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be excellent to see how the burned down by Germans Polish House looked like and the events of Kristallnacht .--Molobo (talk) 02:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Germans returning?

Now that Poland has joined the EU and the Schengen zone, there is presumably nothing to prevent Germans returning to Wroclaw if they want to. Are any doing so? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 05:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK Germans aren't allowed to buy properties in Poland, and most Germans have no clue what's behind the Elbe anyway. Karasek (talk) 12:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
  • On your first point, when Poland joined the EU, did they get a specific exemption that allowed them to block Germans wishing to return to Breslau, Danzig etc? And even if Germans can't buy property, there is presumably nothing to stop them renting. I note that the article German minority in Poland says "Recently, more Germans acquired land and property in the areas where they, or their ancestors, used to live, and moved there."
  • On your second point (and assuming you mean the Oder rather than the Elbe), that's quite untrue. There are millions of Germans whose parents and grandparents came from Silesia, Pomerania, and East and West Prussia. When I was last in Berlin there was an exhibition on "Old Breslau" and it was packed with Germans. I'd be very surprised if none of them were interested in returning if they could. As the article notes, there was still a significant German population in Wroclaw as late as the 1960s. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 13:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
  • On your first point: there is something like an agreement between Germany and countries like Poland and the Czech republic. Germans can't buy properties in these countries for 7 or 11 years after they joined the EU, and the Poles and Czechs can't work in Germany for the same time span. Regarding the German minority in Poland: that's only true for the Germans in Upper Silesia. Many of them left Poland in the 80s, made some money in Germany and move back. Most of them are legally Germans, but frankly neither real Germans nor real Poles. They have strong connections to Poland/Upper Silesia, something which isn't true for most other Germans.
  • No, I mean the Elbe. Most Germans live in Western Germany, and many of them don't have a clue about Eastern Germany (the former GDR), let alone Silesia or Pomerania. These exhibitions are for educated and interested minorities, the majority couldn't care less about the former Eastern block. Sad but true. My complete family was expelled too, I live next to the polish and czech border, yet I did not know anything until some years ago. Most people here, for example, have never visited Silesia = Poland, even if it's just some 10 minutes away. Karasek (talk) 19:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that. I will be going there myself later this year and I will see for myself. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 02:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of Wrocław

This article has seen a significant amount of reverting lately regarding its history section. Perhaps it would be good to create a separate History of Wrocław article (within Category:Histories of cities in Poland) for more detailed information, allowing the main article to survey the city's history. Olessi (talk) 22:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe. It depends on how detailed the history between 1900 and 1990 is covered. The reverting will not end until the history between 1900 and 1990 looks a bit less distorted. According to the article until 1945 the city was more or less just a hotbed of antisemitism and antipolonism, whereas Polish Wroclaw was a paradise of reconstruction. Both wasn't the case. The German Breslau also had one of the biggest Jewish communities in Germany, a famed Jewish Theological Seminary and a Polish minority that wasn't as big as the article wants us to believe (many industrialized cities in Prussia had the same Polish communities). The Polish Wroclaw on the other hand was neither completely destroyed (there was no firestorm) nor completely reconstructed. That's visible for everyone who ever visited the city. The communist Polish authorities, like the German Nazis, had the same ideological approach to the history of the city. Both destroyed what they didn't like. That's referenced, and it must be mentioned. It must be mentioned in a balanced way. Writing about the devastation of a single Polish school while hardly mentioning the destruction of almost all German cemeteries (right now it reads "German cemeteries and many monuments of German architecture in the city were neglected or allowed to make way for reconstruction") and the Polonization of the city isn't balanced. If we use weasel words here we must also, for instance, write about the "temporary closing" of Polish institutions. That's not what I wan't. Karasek (talk) 07:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The German Breslau also had one of the biggest Jewish communities in Germany I have detailed study how it was mass murdered by Germans. I will gladly expand this in History of Wrocław article. Here a short mention about how this community was mass murdered is in order.

The German Breslau also had one of the biggest Jewish communities in Germany The city only became 'Breslau' in XIX century. It never was 'German'-the original inhabitants remained despite the heavy wave of Germanisation by colonists and immigrants.

that wasn't as big as the article wants us to believe (many industrialized cities in Prussia had the same Polish communities) Actually the article currently diminishes the history of the original inhabitants who became a minority in their own city. In fact we need to expand on that, including the rapid rise of Poles due to German use of Polish people as slave labour. Your comment about Prussia is completely akward. Most of industralised cities in Prussia weren't originally Polish so this is a different situation. The Polish Wroclaw on the other hand was neither completely destroyed (there was no firestorm) Since when a firestorm is required to talk about city being destroyed. The German Nazis who fought with such hard determination against Allies, at the same time executing "untermenschen" in the city laid the city to almost total destruction. To compare it with some reconstruction works that claimed signs of former Germanisation of the city is out of balance and POV. nor completely reconstructed Of course it wasn't. I am surprised you believe any city is being reconstructed in the same way. And really, of course Poles didn't care much about reconstructing monuments to Bismarck (with his slogan Polen Ausrotten !), Hitler, many German nationalists, or symbols of Germanisation of the Polish city. Likewise many Stalinist, Communists or Russian Empire monuments in Eastern Europe were demolished after those countries regained freedom. Would you expect people to rebuild symbols of their opression ? This is natural and must be described as such The communist Polish authorities, like the German Nazis, had the same ideological approach to the history of the city. Please stop. This is highly offensive remark. The German Nazis viewed Poles as race of lesser creatures to be exterminated and the city as Polish would be nothing more then nest of untermenschen with no culture and to be erased. Polish authorities never held any racial theories viewing immigrant German population as lesser animals.--Molobo (talk) 08:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a rant, not an answer. I repeat: we have reverenced facts (polish sources) that
  • the town wasn't completely destroyed
  • the communist authorities had an ideological approach to the history of the city
  • this approach overemphasized the Piast part of the history and denied almost everything afterwards
  • the consequences of this ideological approach were modification of churches by means of destruction, removal or partial reconstruction, the destruction of *all* German monuments (not only Bismarcks, but also poets or scientists), the destruction of explicit Prussian monuments and the destruction of almost or all German cemeteries.
I repeat again: these aren't my allegations, these are referenced facts, backed uped by Polish sources. They have to be included, and they must mirror the reference. Destruction means destruction. Karasek (talk) 07:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I am somewhat perplexed why you insist on focusing on minor changes made during re-construction when when talking about destruction of the city, instead of what made 90% of the city destroyed. May we know the reason you think vanishing of a couple of ruined building in 70s is more important to this topic then Nazi's destroying 90% of the city when resisting Allied forces ? As to the fact that authorities had an ideology that is hardly strange. Every party per definition has certain ideology behind it. Polish communists had rights of the workers etc, German Nazi party officials had extermination of Jewish and Polish "untermenschen". No doubt both attitudes had consequences for treatment of history, and city population, that is undisputed. As to the claim that Poles focused on Polish history-that again is hardly an accusation. After years of being mass murdered by German state no everybody was fascinated by German history. As to your claim that the city was destroyed by Poles rather then Nazi's that is a very extremist POV going against known history and scholary sources. Some buildings and symbols of Germanisation were no doubt removed when the city was rebuilded. But 90% of the city was destroyed by German Nazi's fight, to focus on 1% or so of buildings removed during reconstruction goes against NPOV rules.--Molobo (talk) 08:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Synagogues

Jindobre from Wroclaw. Can someone tell me the adresses of the New Synagogue (Wrocław), the Breslau synagogue which was destroyed in 1938, and of the "White Stork" synagogue which still exists (http://www.isjm.org/jhr/no2/Wroclaw.htm) and was recently restored to the Jewish community? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 16:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

This site shows the Neue Synagoge's Breslau address as " Anger 8"; Anger was just west of Tauentzienplatz (G6 on this map). The modern Polish name for Anger is "Łąkowa"; it is visible just west of "Plac Tadeusza Kościuszki" (formerly Tauentzienplatz) on this map. The Neue Synagoge is visible on this old map near the bottom just northwest of Tauentzienplatz. It is also visible here near the bottom- follow the route from Kaiser Wilhelm Straße north (becomes Schweidnitzer Straße / Świdnicka) to Tauentzienplatz. See also Google Maps.
The Stork Synagogue[5] or "Alte Synagoge" is on Pawla Włodkowica (formerly Wallstraße); see Google Maps. Olessi (talk) 18:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 20:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)