Talk:Worldwide Church of God

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christianity
Christianity Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments
Archive
Archives
/Archive 1


Contents

[edit] Problematic Content of "Criticisms" Section

The section titled "Criticisms", apart from its absurd location which suggests heavy POV on the part of the editors, then further embarrasses Wikipedia by airing various theological grievances of a Protestant flavor against the old WCG church. It gets yet worse, bringing up the ridiculous "cult" label apparently because this church members had the audacity to try to mold their beliefs and practices as closely to the Bible as they could--one only has to read their literature to see this, regardless of what one may which to contend concerning their interpretation of scripture. Finally, calling Walter Martins subjective book a "classic", lending unwarranted authority to his hastily researched opinion that the Church is a "cult" is poor scholarship and sensationalist at best, and disturbingly POV at worst--especially considering the following quote concerning his book, taken from Amazon.com, which lists the religions Martin examines as "cults":

"Among cults and religions included are: Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, New Age Cults, the Unification Church, Baha'i Faith, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and more."

Either provide this discussion page with specific, documented examples of old WCG activities that are universally considered "cult like", including direct and specific expert, unbiased analysis as to why that activity is considered by some experts as "cult like", or stand clear and stop tarnishing Wikipedia (and even then, if an editor were to come close to meeting the criteria above, one must be very careful and consider that mainstream churches like the Catholic Church can be considered a candidate according to some definitions).

A neutral POV approach would be to let people use their common sense to determine what the church really was, and now is, by simply describing the Church, it's beliefs (accurately), and its activities.

(Concerning activities of this church, please note that none of the old WCG's humanitarian projects of Armstrong's era are mentioned in the article, neither any of the awards he received or friendships he had with major heads of state: these projects are well known to thousands, and it's an embarrassment that they can look at such an article and not see those projects referenced, while the article is filled with negativity, innuendo, and POV. This will change very soon).

The religious discrimination is at an end, and those involved in editing this article will count themselves fortunate if I don't turn them in to the higher-ups at Wikipedia.

[edit] fischer?

no mention of bobby fischer? quite the notable figure

[edit] Unreferenced and original research

A large amount of the material in this article lacks references, and/or is in violation of WP:NOR. I have tagged these sections accordingly. As per Wikipedia:Verifiability, unless sources are forthcoming within a reasonable period of time, that material will be deleted from the article, and moved to talk page. Better to have a short, well-sourced article until that time in which editors can find sources to expand upon it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Jossi,
There is some fabulous new source material available to the public through a court case involving the current WCG leadership. WCG Internal documents from the 1980's were made public through the discovery process. It's all available through a book and by request presumably. The existence of this tremendous primary source material is mentioned in several posts on this page by me and in the Joseph Tkach Senior article-these were put up several months ago. Literally zero interest has been shown in using it, nor even any responses to the postings as of yet from the regular editors who remain active with the article regardless.
It paints a stunningly different picture than what the article currently reflects.
I plan to bring it in as soon as I can, but for the next few weeks am tied up with another pressing project as you know. Jebbrady 06:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Jebbrady
Before you do that, note that primary sources such as court records or internal documents of a company can only be used with great caution, if at all. Best would be to stick with what third-party published sources say about this subject. See WP:V#Sources. Simply put, Wikiedia is not in the business of investigative journalism, if these documents are discussed in third-party reliable sources, we can use theses sources as described by the publisher/author of that source. We do not analyze the source and quote directly from it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments by User:Jebbrady about this article

On 2 August I moved the following comments here that Jeb had left on my Talk page, because I prefer to keep discussion centralized at the article being discussed. EdJohnston 02:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Worldwide Church of God article and possible conflict of interest
Dear Edjohnson,

I read the policy on conflict of interest recently. I immediately thought of the current WCG article, which has already been flagged for lack of citations. Reading that article, I had sensed not just POV, but that something wasn't right about the way the article was being used, knowing that WCG leadership are in a very awkward position with egg on their face these days, after court documents were made public by their legal opponents, the PCG. After a book was published using internal memos, emails, and financial records obtained through the discovery process in the trial WCG v. PCG, called Raising the Ruins, I realized the entire history of the post Armstrong era had to be completely overhauled--the court records painted a crystal clear picture of a doctrinal transformation that was deliberately hidden so the WCG leadership could hold on to it's members and still collect vast amounts of tithes without in turn using the tithes to publish and distribute for free Armstrong's literature, or even continue the arts programs or humanitarian projects. No one knows where the money went==about a billion dollars over five years--far more income than had ever come in before.

So I put up a posting on the WCG article discussion page asking the active editors to comment on this incredible new cash of source material. There was no reply. The editors continued to reamin active. Months later there was still no reply. Eight months later and still no comments to numerous attempts I have made to drum up discussion about these internal emails, documents etc being made available which show everything. Not a peep.

(I realize third parties are the ideal for an encyclopedia, but we do have that in Raising the Ruins--the writer is a college instructor for what its worth.)

If you please would, consider looking into investigating a possible conflict of interest with that article. Thanks in advance for any action and insight you offer.

01:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)Jebbrady

That source would be far from neutral. Stephen Flurry is related to Gerald Flurry, founder of the Philadelphia Church of God, a post WCG-denomination. The PCG is obviously antagonistic towards the current WCG due to their fundamentally different view of Herbert Armstrong. 68.13.236.125 05:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

I question the presence of this section. Anything that is significant should be covered in the text of the article. Having a separate "timeline" is redundant, at best, and detracts from the quality of the article. It would never make Featured status with it present. 24.6.65.83 00:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the timeline from the article and placed it here for any discussion people feel is necessary. 24.6.65.83 00:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree in principle with removing the timeline. As you are implying, facts that are important in the timeline as written here could be covered in the text part of the article. EdJohnston 00:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
And here I thought I was fairly explicit. :) Just so you know, I'm also going to try to deal with the Criticism section that several other editors have said is oddly placed. 24.6.65.83 00:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

  • 1892—Herbert W. Armstrong is born in Des Moines, Iowa.
  • 1909—Armstrong drops out of high school during his junior year. Under the guidance of his uncle, he becomes self-educated in his chosen field of advertising.
  • 1917
    • Armstrong marries Loma Dillon.
    • between 1917 and 1927—Loma meets a woman who eventually convinces her that Saturday (and not Sunday) is the true Sabbath. Armstrong is shocked that she would believe this. After intense research into the subject, he comes to believe that this is correct.
  • 1927—Further study into Christian beliefs leads Armstrong into attending the Church of God.
  • 1930
  • 1931—HWA begins his ministry in Eugene, Oregon.
  • 1933
  • 1934
    • The Plain Truth begins as a mimeograph publication.
    • The Radio ministry becomes known as the "Radio Church of God."
  • 1937—After a dispute concerning what to tell prospective members before baptism, Armstrong withdraws entirely from the Church of God. He claims to put his trust in God to provide for the needs of his family and further claims a determination to preach the truth beholden to no man.
  • 1939—The World's Fair is held in New York. This inspires Armstrong to rename his radio program "The World Tomorrow."
  • 1946
    • Because of the growth in radio stations, Armstrong feels that it is essential to move where he can have access to modern radio recording studios. He therefore relocates to Pasadena, California.
    • March 3—the "Radio Church of God" is incorporated under California's General Nonprofit Corporation Law.
  • 1947—Ambassador College (AC), a Bible College used to train ministers for his "Radio Church of God," is founded by Armstrong in Pasadena.
  • 1950s—The Plain Truth becomes a monthly publication. Until then, publication had been sporadic.
  • 1953
    • January 7—"The World Tomorrow" is broadcast on Radio Luxembourg.
    • Armstrong begins to view his ministry in two epochs of 19 years each (1934–1953 and 1953–1972).
  • 1956
    • Armstrong meets Stanley Rader.
    • Armstrong and AC graduate Herman L. Hoeh publish 1975 in Prophecy!. The title was taken from a book published around that time.
  • 1967 Loma Armstrong died April 15, 1967
    • January 5—Church changes its name to Worldwide Church of God.
  • 1969
    • Michael Dennis Rohan attempts to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. Rohan claims to have been inspired by Armstrong and his ministry.
    • Stanley Rader begins full-time employment with the church.
    • Evangelist Roderick C. Meredith informs the leadership that members should not interpret the 1975 in Prophecy! booklet as predicting that Christ will come in 1975.
  • 1970s—During the 1960s and 1970s, the church distributes millions of copies of The Plain Truth to the public without charge.
  • 1970
    • Carl O'Beirn breaks with the church, becomes founder of Church of God (O'Beirn) at Cleveland, Ohio.
    • March 15—Church is featured in a report by Time magazine, in which Armstrong announces his split with son Garner Ted. Garner Ted Armstrong, Vice President at Ambassador College, reportedly had been committing adultery with AC undergraduate coeds, and gambling with church funds.
    • July 20—Garner Ted Armstrong is returned to full executive duties, including hosting "The World Tomorrow" program on radio and television, with his father's approval, despite serious reservations within the church ministry.
  • 1974—A change in church doctrine allows members to divorce and remarry under certain circumstances that the church determines are biblical.
  • 1975—Herbert Armstrong baptizes Stanley Rader. Rader, formerly a professing Jew, becomes an ordained church evangelist.
  • 1977
    • Herbert Armstrong marries Ramona Martin and moves to Tucson, Arizona.
    • July—The article "Plain Truth About Healing" is published;. The ministry makes gradual allowances for childhood vaccinations, treatment by physicians, use of prescription medication, surgery, blood transfusions, pain medication, and antibiotics.
  • 1978—Garner Ted Armstrong is excommunicated by his father for a second and final time. He leaves to form the Church of God International in Tyler, Texas.
  • 1979
    • California Attorney General George Deukmejian, after receiving complaints from WCG staff, church members and former members, begins an investigation of the church and associated enterprises over charges of financial wrongdoing. Church goes into financial receivership. Under the direction of church attorney Stanley Rader, the church litigates against the receivership, but is denied relief in 16 different petitions to the California Court of Appeals and 11 separate petitions to the California Supreme Court.
    • April 15—Rader defends himself and the church on the television program "60 Minutes" with Mike Wallace.
    • The State of California Law Board and the Board of Accountancy begin an investigation into possible professional ethics violations charges against Stanley Rader involving multiple grounds of inquiry.
  • 1980
    • June 3—United States Supreme Court denies church appeals of receivership case for the third time and permits receivership to proceed in California courts.
  • 1981
    • Jack Kessler, CPA and attorney-at-law (a member of the church's accounting firm Rader, Cornwall, Kessler) sends a published letter to the Board of Directors and Council of Elders of the church, expressing concern over church accounting procedures and allegations of impropriety against Armstrong.
    • California State legislature passes a special bill specifically exempting religious organizations such as the Worldwide Church from further financial scrutiny by the California Office of the Attorney General after intense lobbying by Stanley Rader and other church sympathizers. This effectively prevents the government of California from intruding into churches throughout the state.
  • 1981
    • As Stanley Rader retires from his positions with the church, Herbert W. Armstrong pays him a $250,000 bonus (after taxes) for Rader's legal work in resisting the governmental receivership of the church.
  • 1981–1986 The Worldwide Church of God experiences significant growth. Armstrong maintains an extensive schedule visiting foreign countries to speak with leaders on behalf of the Ambassador Foundation. The Plain Truth magazine and the radio and television programs experience a surge in their readership and viewing audience.
  • 1986
    • January 16—Herbert W. Armstrong dies; Joseph W. Tkach Sr is appointed as his successor to the post of Pastor General. In the immediate aftermath of the transition, church growth is sustained and even surges beyond past levels.
  • 1986-1989—Under Tkach Sr.'s leadership, the church begins to make changes to its doctrine. The church commission, doctrine of divine healing, and many other doctrinal positions are revised. Major doctrinal works previously produced by the church are withdrawn from publication by the church, including Herbert Armstrong's final book, Mystery of the Ages.
  • 1989—Gerald Flurry and John Amos, ministers, are disfellowshipped after Flurry's book (later published as Malachi's Message) documents the changes in doctrine being made by the church. Flurry and Amos form The Philadelphia Church of God headquartered in Edmond, Oklahoma.
  • 1991—Tkach Sr. revises the church's teaching on the concept being "born again", suggesting that the Holy Spirit is a person.
  • 1992—Evangelist Roderick C. Meredith leaves and is chosen as Pastor General of the Global Church of God. [1]His title is later revised to that of Presiding Evangelist.
  • 1993—Tkach Sr. distances the church from its former binitarian doctrinal views.
  • 1994
    • Tkach Sr. teaches that true Christians may also be found in other Christian denominations; that Christians no longer are obligated to follow the Old Covenant laws; removes dietary restrictions. "The New Covenant and the Sabbath" sermon is given by Joseph W. Tkach Sr. in Atlanta, Georgia, December 17, 1994. Here, among other things, he focuses on the Sabbath: "There is nothing in the new covenant that says we are required to keep the Sabbath according to the rules of the old covenant…. Being Sabbath-keepers does not make us more righteous than other Christians." David Hulme, television host for The World Tomorrow, resigns, asserting that the "so called 'new truths' " are "in fact rather old errors," and accuses Joseph Tkach of already believing these new truths when he succeeded Armstrong in 1986.[2]
  • 1995
    • Many ministers leave and form the United Church of God.[3]
    • Joseph W. Tkach Sr. dies (September 23, 1995); his son, Joseph Tkach Jr., is appointed as Pastor General.
    • Tkach Jr. rejects the Anglo-Israelism doctrine; members are encouraged to observe Christmas and Easter as holy days, to vote in government elections, and to serve in the Armed Forces or in law enforcement. Tithing is declared to be optional as a guide to giving rather than as a doctrinal teaching and requirement of church members.
  • 1996—Tkach Jr. apologizes to members and others for the church's past "erroneous" teachings.
  • 1997
    • Tkach Jr. publishes Transformed by Truth, defending the administrative and doctrinal changes made by him and his father.
    • The Worldwide Church of God joins the National Association of Evangelicals.
    • The Philadelphia Church of God reprints Mystery of the Ages (MOA). Worldwide Church of God files a lawsuit to stop its publication, citing copyright infringement.
  • 1998
    • David Hulme loses the presidency of the United Church of God and forms the Church of God, an International Association. However, the United Church of God remains the largest group that had its origins in the Worldwide Church of God.
    • After a corporate takeover at the Global Church of God, Roderick Meredith founds the Living Church of God, which was then (and still remains) the second largest group that had its origins in the Worldwide Church of God.
  • 1999—Tkach Jr. announces the creation of an employee retirement fund[4]
  • 2000
    • September 18—The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals rules that the Philadelphia Church of God infringed on the Worldwide Church's copyright to MOA, awards damages to Worldwide Church of God, and remands the case to a lower court for determination of damages to be paid and a possible permanent injunction.
  • 2003
    • April—The Worldwide Church of God agrees to end the lawsuit over MOA by selling the copyright to MOA and nineteen other Worldwide-copyrighted religious tracts to The Philadelphia Church of God for $3 million.
    • September 13—Garner Ted Armstrong dies in Tyler, TX.
  • 2004—An independent evangelical ministry, Living Hope Ministries, releases a documentary film on the doctrinal transformation of the WCG entitled Called to be Free
  • 2005—Tkach Jr. implements a new churchwide financial system. The headquarters server network controls the Worldwide flow of financial data. Tkach Jr. later announces that the church wishes to change its name. One name suggested is Grace International Communion, but this name has not been approved.
  • 2006—Headquarters offices are move to 2011 Financial Way, Glendora, CA, 91741; the mailing address is P.O. Box 5005, Glendora, CA, 91740-5005.
  • 2007—WCG finishes a 5 year long study on women in leadership and concludes this study with the position that it will allow women in ordained ministry positions.

[edit] Armstrong setting dates for Christ's return?

The article has a declarative statement that he set a date for Christ's return in 1972, without a citation to verify. This is actually in dispute from numerous sources, including the Church that hold the copyrights to his books. There are secondary sources that said he did without citing any specific occurence of when and where he actually said it. Other sources say he simply didn't. There is no record that I know of Armstrong himself in his literature or in a sermon setting dates. Note that 1975 in prophecy has no mention of it--there is a link to it in the Armstrong article, and the Wikipedia article on that booklet echoes that. Without a citation, it should be removed. What I do know is that speculation about 1972 arose from the upper ministry: the ministry, while Armstrong visited heads of state, began to take the church in other directions, and moved away from preaching everything Armstrong wanted, and avoiding thing he did not want. It was that same ministry that started the speculation about 1972, and perpetuated it. A little common sense just makes it seem doubtful, considering the lack of proof that he himself set dates: The Bible sets no dates, and the Bible was the basis of Armstrongism; and it would have been absurd for him set 1972 as a date considering the European Union had not formed as a federal superstate yet, a major prerequisite in prophecy-nor had eastern Europe come close to spinning out of the Soviet orbit, which Armstrong expected to occur before a return, forming the "Eastern leg" of Daniels statue.

If a secondary source should refer to an specific instance where he set a date, otherwise it would be regurgitating hearsay. It would have to be 1) a sermon 2) a booklet or book 3)a co-worker letter 4)the Plain Truth or the Good News etc.. or 5) someone in the room a room or meeting where he declared it, with no one else close to Armstrong contradicting that source's account.

If a secondary source can make such a reference it's fine. Otherwise the statement doesn't belong.

03:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)Jebbrady

If a reliable source can be found that reports that date (1972), it can be in there. If a reliable source can be found that say he didn't, or gives a different date, that can go in there also. The article should accurately reflect what those sources say. If they can provide a date and location he said it, fine. If not, that doesn't make them less reliable. "A little common sense" without citation = Original Research. 24.6.65.83 07:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The article 1975_in_Prophecy! states that 1972 was the date.68.13.238.221 (talk) 04:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lede and overview

The presence of an overview is redundant to the purpose of a WP:LEAD section. I propose to eliminate the overview, moving a few bits up to the lead and deleting the rest. The revised lead would look something like this;

The Worldwide Church of God (WCG), formerly the Radio Church of God, is a Christian church based in Glendora, California, USA. Founded in 1933 by Herbert Armstrong as a radio ministry, the WCG under Armstrong had a significant, and often controversial, influence on 20th century religious broadcasting and publishing in the United States and Europe, especially in the field of interpreting biblical end-time (eschatalogical) prophecies. However, within a few years after Armstrong's death in 1986, the succeeding church administration, led by Joseph W. Tkach, Sr. from 1986 to 1995 and then his son, Joseph Tkach, Jr. from 1995 to the present, examined and changed the doctrines and teachings of which the WCG held fundamental differences with more mainstream Christianity. Many members and ministers left the WCG to form churches that conformed to most, if not all, of the church's former doctrines. The WCG claims 64,000 members in 860 congregations in about 90 countries as of June 2007. The WCG is a member of the National Association of Evangelicals.<ref name="NAE">{{cite web|url=http://www.wcg.org/lit/aboutus/media/nae.htm|title=NAE Accepts Worldwide Church of God, NAE press release, May 7, 1997|accessdate=2006-08-16}}</ref>

-- 24.6.65.83 17:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of strengthening the lead, and dropping the overview, so I support this plan. EdJohnston 19:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Done. 24.6.65.83 20:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] From Jebbrady to User:24.6.65.83

I am aware of a book that came out in November called Raising the Ruins by Stephen Flurry. It purports to document in detail the transformation of the Worldwide Church of God under Joseph Tkach, basing its narrative solely on court documents--depositions, WCG internal memos and emails, testimonies, etc.. and all other documents gathered through discovery during the court trial between the Worldwide Church of God under Joseph Tkach Jr. and the Philadelphia Church of God (PCG). It is extensively footnoted, and actual internal WCG documents and memos are quoted throughout, without spin or interpretation.

Apparently the lawyers for the Worldwide under Tkach Jr. tried to keep these documents from being made public. They did this by initially offering to sell to the PCG the copyrights of Armstrong's books and booklets only on the condition that the PCG surrender these documents. Amazingly, Gerald Flurry, the head of the PCG, immediately informed them that that demand was a deal breaker, and to prepare for further litigation, even though Tkach and the WCG had already won their appeal on the Mystery of the Ages case with the subsequent PCG request to be heard by the Supreme Court being initially denied. Even more amazing, within hours the WCG relented and sold the copyrights anyway.

Are you aware of this book and what implication does this body of tremendous, fabulous source material have for this article?

I'm kind of surprised that this is not being discussed at all on this page. It should be discussed out in the open, and if it isn't, something is wrong.

Jebbrady 17:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)Jebbrady

11. You do realize that this is the same anon editor you've been accusing me of colluding with on Herbert W. Armstrong, right?--SarekOfVulcan 19:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


Anyone have any thoughts? We might as well open the floor to other contributers besides User:24.6.65.83. Jebbrady 23:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)Jebbrady

I have several thoughts.

  1. The book is a primary source given Steven Flurry's activities in the litigation as part of "Philadelphia Church of God’s legal team in its battle against the Worldwide Church of God."[1]
  2. It's pretty obvious that there is also a family connection to Gerald Flurry, founder of the breakaway Philadelphia Church of God; given the surname and ages, most likely a father-son relationship, although I have yet to find direct evidence of this.
  3. Steven Flurry is thus far from a neutral party on the topic.
  4. "Without spin or interpretation" and "tremendous, fabulous source material" are your POV opinions about the book.
  5. These are not opinions I share given the primary source aspects.
  6. You are once again pushing the "Armstrong and the breakaways are right, the reformation was wrong" POV in your edits (the entire second paragraph above, for example).

-- 24.6.65.83 16:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Raising the Ruins: Description and import for this article

By any standard this is wonderful new source material for the post Armstrong years. It's the best of everything: the fact that internal documents are presented by a third party, and are cited by newspapers in book reviews now, makes it allowable for Wikipedia, yet being of a third party in no way filters or diminishes the impact or the snapshot of events the internal memos and emails make in forming a picture of trends behind the scenes in the transformation, in crystal clear, irrefutable detail.

It does deal with some sensitive issues, especially that about 1 billion dollars in tithes and offerings was collected from members loyal to Armstrong from 1986-1991, during which time the WCG leadership was systematically hiding the doctrinal changes and their plans for a massive transformation into evangelicalism. Of course the changes were hid because, as event would bare out--the members would never turn their tithes over to a leadership rejecting the teachings they had loved and supported. Members who sniffed the changed were ruthlessly forced out after complaining, and droves predictably left when the changes could no longer be hidden. The WCG leadership was left holding the money, and meanwhile cut back on expenses like distributing the literature for free, humanitarian projects etc...and began selling off assets as member left. Of course a lot of families were torn apart by the controversy in the changes but that's another story.

My opinion is that we need to face reality and recognize that the post-Armstrong years described in this article in no way reflects the reality of what happened, and it has to be dealt with. I've noticed that some editors have either expressed dismay at this book getting mentioned frequently, or have tried to completely ignore it--my postings on it on this page have failed to draw a single expression of interest in terms of using it. This of course leads to the appearance of a possible conflict of interest. I guess so far no one has had the time or recourses to really investigate that and file a complaint. Well, as far as this book not being used to date, it looks like a new order has come to the plains.

Jebbrady 23:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)Jebbrady

I don't see where the Flurry info would be used. If we had a separate article, something like 'Breakup of the WWCOG,' it would clearly be relevant there. The current article doesn't dig much into the reasons for the doctrinal split after Armstrong's death. The only section of the article that is still separately tagged as needing work is 'Worldwide organizational structure.' Flurry probably wouldn't help much on that. EdJohnston 02:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
"The current article doesn't dig much into the reasons for the doctrinal split after Armstrong's death." And it shouldn't because....???? Jebbrady 04:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
See my comments above - they all apply here. 24.6.65.83 16:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please give your opinion on deleting 'Meetings with royalty..'

The whole section on 'Meetings with royalty..' seems to me unessential. Particularly alarming is that it devotes a whole paragraph to an honor that Armstrong received from Leopold III of Belgium. That king had to abdicate in disgrace in 1951 because of his questionable behavior during WW II. I believe that this info reads like a laundry list and, if anything has to be kept, only a sentence or two would suffice.

Please respond here on whether we can delete the 'Meetings with royalty..' section. Thanks, EdJohnston 00:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it can be dropped altogether: it's an Armstrong thing, rather than a WCG thing, and it's already treated over there -- I trimmed it down from this a while ago so it read less like a laundry list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SarekOfVulcan (talk • contribs) 15 August 2007
What is the laundry list comment apropos of? Actually, my compliance with the trim down was the only concession we've seen by anyone in any of this controversy, aside from the Waldensian/Milton poem I backed off from.Jebbrady 04:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The section is fundamental because it should include Armstrong's views on the prophetic significance of his meeting with heads of state and bring the gospel to them. These meeting were fundamental to the gospel as he knew it (Rev. 10:11).
Second, it was also his traveling that he claimed opened the door for the problems in the ministry, and their power plays "behind his back" while he was gone. So, it's fundamental to the history of the Church.
As for the other issue, the award was given for noble achievements--contributing the most to world peace--it was not awarded as a prize for Armstrong's successful collaborating with the Nazis. The two things are not connected in other words. The kings behavior has nothing to do with the worlds peacemaking problems, nor HWA's efforts or success in that. Actually the Wikipedia article suggest no disgrace in the King that I could see--his political rival accused him apparently falsely. He seems moderately controversial, but not for anything disgraceful according to the article. He had a heated political rivalry during the war with fellow countrymen. So I don't see how it makes any difference does it make whether the King was controversial? Also, his father created the award gave out the first three. Jebbrady 04:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I've reincorporated his belief about the prophetic significance of his meetings with heads of state, with full citation, and added more relevance to the Award from Leopold paragraph, with a supporting citation.

Jebbrady 04:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I managed to edit this article last night without ever seeing the talk page. (I probably got confused trying to figure out the mess that is the Armstrong talk page.) Obviously my removal of the section before reading this shows my agreement, but for the record I feel that it should be removed as it is about the individual, Armstrong, and not the church. Neither of the reasons that Jeb gives for their inclusion are compelling, but instead are being used to preach Armstrong's message. If a citation can be found that shows Armstrong's contention that his traveling to receive these awards "opened the door" to internal church strife, then that should be included in the context of that strife. Nothing in the section as it was did that. 24.6.65.83

15:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hierarchy Incorrect

I'm not unbiased, so I won't edit the Hierarchy section too much, but frankly, it assumes the former form of governance, not the current. Hopquick 11:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remnant Churches

I changed the terminology to "related denominations". IMO, "Remnant Churches" implies a POV that positively or negatively judges the theological veracity of either the WCG or the "remnants". I don't think that is our intent. Others have used the term "splinter" groups. I think this also has a bias. So I changed it to "related denominations". Change it if you feel like you have a better solution. Hopquick 14:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)