Talk:World War II in Timeline-191

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Contents 1 Europe section 2 Material from The Grapple needs added 3 Wrong Flags 4 Need a Map 5 Japan needs removed from Central Powers 6 Title of the Article

[edit] Europe section

Infomation from Turtledove's novels on what's going on in Europe is indeed spotty, and ignoring claims made by just one side would make it even sparser, but unless something going on in Europe is on both the US and CS news media, it's likely to be pure propaganada. Accordingly, the "Driving on Warsaw" by the Tsarist army is doubtful. [no reference in US media; if true the US media should report something like Berlin reports "Heavy Fighting" near Warsaw.] (Stories of victories far away is about the oldest trick in the book.) Joncnunn 21:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Material from The Grapple needs added

So far it looks like this article still only reflects up to and including Drive to the East.

[edit] Wrong Flags

Some of the flags in the window box are wrong. For the Confederate States, the Stars and Bars should be used. The Naval Jack was used on naval ships; it is not the national flag in this timeline. Also, the flag of Canadian rebels should have a blue background, as was mentioned in on of Mary Promery's sections in either Return Engagment or Drive to the East. I also must admit, however, that I have not yet read the new book if it mentions a red banner there. I would also assume that Russia would be using the flag introduced in 1914, with a yellow square in the top left, the width of two stripes, having the Russian eagle in black inside.Scotishman

Shouldn't the Freedom Party flag be used for the Confederates? ESommers 18:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

That's actually a good question. The Confederacy is obviously supposed to parallel Nazi Germany and the covers of the novels since The Center Cannot Hold have prominently featured the reverse color Southern Cross used by the Freedom Party, however its never really mentioned whether this is used only as a battle flag or has taken over as the national flag like the Nazi swastika did in Germany. This also kinda throws into confusion whether or not the Confederate flag added stars between 1862 and 1914 given that the Freedom Party flag only has the 13 from the orignial battle flag in real history. Torlek 18:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Based on the art work on the covers, it looks to me like the Freedom Party flag does not replace the Conferderate flag as the national flag in timeline 191. Also consider in original timeline how controversial just downsizing the Confederate flag inside the state flag of Georgia was a few years back. I think it's safe to say that the (white) Conferedates in timeline 191 care at least as much about their national flag as southernerns today in original timeline. This is in direct contrast to the very short history of the previous German flag in original timeline (adopted early in the German Republic post WWI). Based on the artwork it also appears the CS does not add stars when new states are admited, perhaps for the simple reason that the US does and they don't want to copy it. Jon 21:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually I started re-reading American Front today and when it first shows Cincinnatus the text mentions, "Some of them waved Maltese-cross battle flags like the one that flapped at the head of the squadron, others Stars and Bars like the sixteen-star banner above the post office across the street from Cincinnatus." So the Confederacy apparently did add stars for the new states. I'm also curious why you think the cover art suggests the Stars and Bars remain the national flag when none of the covers ever actually show that flag even though it is mentioned as the national flag in the text. I probably need to read through the later novels to see if there's ever any mention of the flag. Torlek 20:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

My assumption was because the version of the US flags that appear on our uniforms, ships, planes, etc. appear to be the normal flag just in miniture and so when I saw the CS flags on the uniforms on some of the artwork I assumed it was the same way. I only realized a couple of weeks ago that the flag on real life UK ships, planes, etc. is not just the UK flag in miniture but is actually different. Jon 21:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need a Map

Someone should upload a map like the one for the "World War I in Timeline-191" article. ESommersESommers 21:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It may have to wait until "In at the Death" comes out. The end of the Great War in this timeline saw some netural countries sudenly declare themselves to be on the winning side when the outcome of the war was no longer in doubt, and the same thing may happen again in the 2nd Great War. Jon 21:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well if any formaly netural counties joined the winning side none of the viewpoint chars noticed it. The bigest note worthy item released was that Haiti had been occuplied by the CSA apprently since early in The War, so be sure to color it on the same side as the US while keeping the neighboring Dominican Republic netural. Apprently none of the view point chars had noticed it until one of them was assigned to a taskforce to support liberating it. Jon 14:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It looks like Tahu199397 has now made a very good map. The only clear error I see is what's known in our timeline as Azerbejan[sp?] and Armenia[sp?] In the American Empire trilogy it's pretty clear that at the very least that the Armenias were wiped out by the Turks and so that either part of the Ottoman Empire or a pupet state of them and so should be colored the same color as them. Jon 20:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

There's also two countries in the middle east with questionable status: Egypt & Saudi Arabia. In our timeline who really owned Egypt was questionable even before WWI. Technically Ottoman Empire sovergnity but for all intents and purposes administered by the UK until the outbreak of the Great War when the UK declared it a protectate. I didn't see anything from the novels to indicate how in TL 191s the portion of the war involving the UK & Ottoman empire went. It's clear that the UK would have less troops to spare in the Middle East in TL 191 due to having to prop up Canada though. Similarly while most likely Saudi Arabia is offically netural, it appears much less likely to me that in TL 191 they would opending lean towards the UK without the Ottoman Empire being dismantled and still in possesion of most or all of the holy sites of Islam. Jon 16:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

China is also questionable. I think it's pretty clear that under TL 191, by 1941 the Japanese empire would control at least as much of China as they did in OTL. Jon 17:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to clear something up here: I didn't make that map! I just added it to the picture collection. Tahu199397 02:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

In the new map (by Dave), Norway needs colored the same as Germany. In Return Engagement there is a specific reference to the UK trying to attack Germany but going thru Norway but all that fisaco does is drive Norway into the German camp. (That incident is actually highly similar to one that happened in our timeline only in ours Norway had already allied with Germany). Also I don't see a reference in timeline 191 to Brazil being anything but netural athough I guess it's quite possible they could have joined very late in the war once the outcome was no longer in doubt again. Jon 13:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Also in the new map, there are several indepedent countries of Russia that need split out. These include an Azebejan that includes Armedia (either part of or a puppet of the Ottoman Empire [Re: TL 191s Ottoman Empire masacruing the Armenians]); might or might not include Georgia as well. In addition possibly our timeline's central former USSR states. In that case it's largely depedent upon weather in our timeline they became indepedent of the Russian empire during the Russian Civil War or not. Jon 17:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

In addition, the split off of Korea & Manchuria here need copied into the World War I map (first Japense-Chinese war was before WWI). And if the map is supposed to be in early 1940, it needs to incoporate at least as much territory that Japan had captured from China during the second Japense-Chinese war as then; in our timeline that started in 1933 but major fighting didn't start until 1937 this conflict evenually would get merged into our timeline's WW II. The portion of China that the Chinese still have in 1940 should definately be netural; they would have too much on their plate to declare war on anyone else. [It's also pretty much a given if someone makes a TL 191 post WW II map that Japan has won this by the end of "In At the Death", it would be strange for Japan to give Russia an ultimanium if it's still fighting major combat actions in China.] Jon 17:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• In regards to Norway, as you have stated their alliance with Germany did not begin until Return Engagement. This map is supposed to represent the Timeline-191 world prior to the Richmond Agreement in 1940, which takes place, if i recall correctly, over a year before the Second Great War. Therefore, they should still be neutral, as I had placed them. Brazil joined the side of the United States and Germany in the First Great War, and since that side won, I would find it only natural that they would continue an alliance with those countries, as that would seem to be in their best interests. In Europe, I found no indication that Armenia and Azerbaijan became independent from the Russian Empire, although it would make sense. Therefore I will add them to the map as satellites of the Ottoman Empire. I have absolutely no idea whether any other former Soviet Republics became independent and therefore will not add them, as it is highly in doubt. In China, it is assumed that Manchuria was conquered in 1931, as it was in OTL, and would not be on the map of the First Great War (although Korea would be as she was taken by Japan in 1910). As Japan was still technically a part of the Entente in 1940, it is not clear whether she engaged China in an independent war as they were preparing for renewed offensives against U.S. possesions when a new war erupted. As it is so unclear however, I decided to just omit any Japanese conquests in China (other than Manchuria), since the books make no mention of a seperate Sino-Japanese conflict. The neutrality of China is also unclear, since the alliance systems in the Asian Theater are not as clear cut as they were in OTL. Since China is in so much doubt, I decided that it would be easier to only add what is confirmed by the books. - Dave4Prez

Well, the Richmond Agreement is an odd time for a who's at war at who map, a better snap shot would be after the last johnny-come-lately netural country declares itself on one side of the winner as many of the historical world war II maps do; (they in fact sometimes list what year those that joined in '43 and later.) Yes, if we take that point then Norway is still netural, but so was Brazil at that point. It's occansionaly specificly refered by our viewpoint chars in the Atlantic in Return Engagement and Drive to the East as to why they are intercepting the allied cargo ships in that specific location and not off Brazil. (Not quite as often as during the Great War though). Brazil just wants to be on the winning side. Manchuria is a bit confused; in 1910 China also gave the Japense great concessions in Manchuria (similar to conessions they had previously made to several European powers in various coastal cities.) Following the '31 incident Manchuria became much more under direct control of Japan. The other thing that's clear in TL 191 vs ours is that Japan's navy as substantly smaller than in our timeline (probably as a direct result of the US navy also being substantly smaller [due to the US needing a larger army & also not poessions several shipyards including Norfolk]. This does free up manpower for the Japanese to have a larger army (albiet some of it tied down in more territory). It's also totally unclear weather Haiti was a US ally prior to them being invaded by the CS or not. We don't seem to have been given a year that occured; the first reference to Haiti being under CS control I saw was when a US view point charachter heard he was part of a taskforce who is going to liberate it late in the war. Jon 13:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I just picked the Richmond Agreement because it seemed like the time that alliances and territory were clearest. It was before any disputed claims were made (such as the Alsaice-Lorraine and the subsequent French invasion, the British invasion of the Low Countries and their "liberations," and the specific changes in territory). Brazil, I'll admit is probably neutral and only wants to be on the winning side, which we can infer from her late entry into the Great War. However, it would make a lot of sense for Haiti to be a U.S. ally and hopefully keep safe from the Confederates, especially after the first invasion in the Great War (as evidenced by the term "Haitian Government in Exile" when an announcement was being made of countries who recognized an independent Quebec). - Dave4Prez

With regards to Haiti, I must have missed that in the list in that country recognization section in Breakthroughs. Yes, that's sufficent to place them on the US ally list for "The War" and also "The Great War" if not already there. Jon 17:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

New revised map looks great. However, the internal boundary shown between present day the North West Territory of Canada and that territory east of it needs removed. That territory was only split off in OTL in 1999 and so should definately still be part of the North West Territory on the map here. Jon 17:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It has been done. A fine eye you have for detail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave4Prez (talk • contribs) 21:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added a link to this map on the main TL 191 page in the approative section. Jon 21:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• Ok. So I got to thinking that perhaps you were right about the map being at an odd time. I decided to make a new map instead. I erased intranational borders to eliminate confusion, added Norway to the Central Powers as you requested, added Japanese conquests in China, and placed the Chinese Empire under an entirely different category (as there was much contreversy over its status). Please tell me whether this is a better map or if a should restore the old one. Dave4Prez 21:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks very good to me. Jon 17:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Japan needs removed from Central Powers

As of the end of "In the Grapple", Japan has not declared war on the UK. Some US chars are idling speculating as to why the Japanese have abandonded territory they had earlier taken from the US during this war, but that's it. Jon 20:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Peace hasn't broken out yet, in fact I think Japan made as big (or bigger) mistake as they made in our world, they're just honked everybody off. I suspect dealing with Japan will be high on the US to do list once the CSA falls. {{User:Tobias1]]

Timeline 191 article doesn't have any references to Japan actually attacking or declaring war on the UK so I've gone ahead and cut this. While if the series continues Japan may very well attack the UK in the near future it's going to be a seperate war. Jon 13:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a very vague reference to Japan having betrayed the UK in Malaysia at the same time that Japan gives Russia an ultimanum to turn over some (five?) unnamed provinces in Siberia (or else), but it's probably should be listed as a seperate war since for all intents and purposes Japan and the US had stopped fighting by then for the same reasons as in the Great War and Pacific War(athough technically a state of war still exists). Unfortunately, nowhere in this novel does Turtledove states if Russia gave in to Japan or not. And nor does he state how borders have changed in Europe. (He does however state a list of countries that became indepedant of Russia following the Great War which closely matches the ones they lost in original timeline.) Jon 15:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title of the Article

Shouldn't the title of this article be The 2nd Great War in Timeline-191 instead. None of the characheters in the series call this WW II. They are instead refering to this as the 2nd Great War. Jon 20:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Add "The Greater War" or simply "The War" to candidates per some POV chars mentioning this as what they were calling it in late 43 - early 44. Jon 15:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)