Talk:World Bank

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[edit] Top

Adopted orphan redirect for Google: International Bank for Reconstruction and Development

why didn't Bono (U2) become head of this organization. He had great support behind him, much more than wolfowitz.209.148.145.55 04:36, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

He who pays the piper... Rd232 14:16, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)


I'm reading the book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins, which is entirely about how the World Bank, IMF, and USAID are used by mainly American corporate and government interests. Perkins, who claims he was an inside man, says that private companies will try to convince developing governments that their economy is on the verge of explosion, and would explode if only it had more modern infrastructure. The private companies, with close ties to the US government, convince these governments to make huge loan deals (with the world bank, IMF, etc), promising that the people will love them if they have more airports or roads, or that with a new electricity or telecommunications infrastructure the economy of the country will explode. So the "aid" agencies will loan the developing country billions upon billions of dollars in taxpayer dollars, all of which are almost immidiately transferred to American construction and infrastructure corporations as they recieve the contracts for the work. The promised economic miracle of course never happens, and within a few short years the countries are riddled with multiple billions of dollars of debt. Now the US government can move in, effectively takign control of the country. It dictates repayment plans- sometimes including "selling" valuable natural resources (such as oil-rich land) to american corporations, other times part of "repayment" would mean voting certain ways in the UN, etc. In any case, the indebted country becomes almost completely under the control of america and american corporations. I personally am EXTREMELY far from those stupid liberals who scream "it was the greedy corporations!" every chance they get, and I realize the the majority of corporations as they are currently defined are law abiding and have nothing to do with the extortion mentioned in this book. However... the more I think about it, the more it makes perfect sense. I mean, why else would Paul Wolfowitz want anything to do with the World Bank? Think seriously here... I am neither democrat nor republican... but the premise of the book just makes so much sense. Actually, I found the book a little too liberal at times, as the author occasionally slanders globalization or common macroeconomic principles that I generally agree with...

anyway, over with this rant. I was wondering if there would be objection to me posting something about this terrifying use of the world bank on the main page.

charlie

Of course you can (and should) add this. But make it clear that you're giving the point of view of John Perkins, as put forward in his book. I suggest you put a short version of this here, add a link to John Perkins (thus: [[John Perkins]]) and put the complete story there.

DirkvdM 10:21, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)

[edit] Intro: What is it?

I looked up the World Bank to get a quick idea of what it basically is. Alas, I only got a partial answer by reading the entire article, with the best answers in the last paragraph, while these should obviously be in the intro. Here's how my questions popped up as I was reading the article:

What kind of organisation is it? Who owns it (financially and in terms of decisionmaking)? Governments, banks or other organisations? Is it a non-profit organisation? There's some clarification under 'organisational structure', but that doesn't quite answer everything and it should be made clear at the beginning, not in between some stuff about the new president. I understand that it's a cooperation of governments, but which ones? Is it rich countries lending money to poor ones or do the rich countries mediate between banks and poor countries? In short, where does the money come from? A phrase like '...get their funds through bonds issued on the global capital markets' doesn't really mean anything to me. Also, the voting arrangement and US dominance (see the history section) should be mentioned in the intro, I'd say. And the best answers to above questions are found way at the end (last paragraph), such as who owns how much, where does the funding come from (governments, I understand, but which ones?) and that the IMF is it's sister organisation. All of of this should at least be mentioned in the intro.

Another question: what is 'transmigration V'?

DirkvdM 10:33, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)


why is the EU on the list? i believe that it is not important and is just counting member states twice. i dont thinkb it is also relevant information and i think is best placed at the bottom of the page thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.128.34.39 (talk) 16:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] brief explanation

I don't have much time to spend on this talk. I really appreciate people asking questions about what I'm researching on. Sometimes I feel like I should have asked them, too. Now my answers:

In fact, taxpayers finance the WBG. This means that a share of annual government expenditure goes to the world bank. However, most of the money the WBG is based on never leaves countries' vaults. This money serves as a security for the WBG to be able to release bonds in international capital markets. Since the WBG has a AAA rating, it has access to financing at conditions that are way better than those for poor countries, since it doesn't have to pay a risk premium.

[edit] Despite?

I'm really confused by the "despite" in this sentence: It has been accused of being a US or western tool for imposing economic policies that support western interests, despite evidence that free market reform policies in practice are often harmful to development if implemented badly, too quickly, in the wrong sequence, or in an inappropriate environment (e.g. very weak, uncompetitive economies).

It seems like the second part of the sentence suports the first part of the sentence, rather than contradicting the first part (as "despite" suggests).

Me too. I'm going to change it. --Heron 11:04, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No one forces at gunpoint a government or nation state to accept a Wold bank loan, as no one coereces membership in the IMF. The reidiculos critizisms need to be (1) identified by name who makes the criticism (2) placed separately in a subsection entieled "critisism", apart from the main disgussion regarding its purpose. Nobs01 00:40, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why even reference the EU holding 30 percent when the EU is not a member? Only confused the discussion with nonsense.Nobs01 23:49, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The U.S. has used guns and various other coercive tactics, overthrowing democratic governments in Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua, installing dictators in many others, promoting violent uprisings and terrorist attacks against resistant regimes all over the world. Our vast military network and longstanding violent foreign policies leave few in question that we do indeed trade 'at the point of a gun'. Even without the being forced at gunpoint, these "reidiculos critizisms" would still seem to be valid, however, given the vast power differential between a great economic hegemon like the U.S. and small poor nations, most of which have suffered the ravages of colonial oppression from the U.S. and its allies.SDali2008 09:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

EU consists of a lot of european countries who are member.No nonsense here.

[edit] Conspiracy

I think that we should add a section on the many conspiracies that surround the world bank.

I think YOU should. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.43.187 (talk) 05:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economic Policy

I Herd that the World Bank is more neo liberal than the IMF--J intela 17:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The world bank workforce

I think this page should also have a section dedicated to the people working with the world bank. Are the employees nominated from the member countries or is this an organisation open to recruitment? Also, having links to profiles and testimonials of the employees will be quite interesting. We are talking "about" the bank and the workforce is an important part of it. Whatsay? 13:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC) Ashish Khattri

[edit] Apparent Contraditions and possible distortions of the truth

There seem to be several contradictions, and much confusion embedded in this article. It needs to be looked at critically, or else it risks sounding like a press release for the World Bank. I have no strong reason to criticize the institution itself, as I came here to learn about it. But I can see there are contradictions:

  • It refers to the organization as "non-profit."
  • It says that the selling of AAA rated bonds "does generate some profit."
  • Selling bonds can never generate profit, and is always a loss unless the money borrowed is loaned out again at a higher interest rate, which is clearly not the case here.
  • It claims that the majority of the IBRD's "income" is generated by lending its own capital, but this does not appear to be true "income," and the structure actually appears to be an overall money losing system.
  • It then gets to the meat of the matter when it says "The IDA obtains the majority of its funds from forty donor countries who replenish the bank's funds every three years," which most strongly suggests that this is the only actual "income" of the institution, which otherwise operates at a perpetual loss.
  • It neglects to explain how an organization that perpetually loses money (actually gives it away) manages to get a "high credit rating," and AAA rated bonds. It can only be assumed that the people who lend their money to the World Bank by buying bonds do so because of their faith that the obligations will always be honored by the continued donations of the member nations, not because they expect the organization to be able to generate any other kind of income.
  • It seems strange to describe the organization as "market based" when in fact it is grant based, and its bonds market activities are actually a way for the organization and its members to get deeper into debt by borrowing at a higher interest than is ever charged to any customer. Obviously this is done for a purpose, and it may very well be a good purpose. The purpose of the borrowing appears simply to be the need for more funds now than are currently available from the direct funding of the governments. But clearly, unless the World Bank intends to default on its debts and sacrafice its high credit rating forever, all of these loans will ultimately be repaid, and the loss incurred will have to be paid out of the funds received from the donor countries (and the money that goes to pay this interest will ultimately not be passed on to the developing countries who are meant to benefit). This should be made explicit, if it is the case, and it doesn't fit well with the description "market based."

There may be very many good reasons why, for humanitarian purposes, or to further development and improve trade, the donor countries would want to give their money to assist poorer nations. However, there's no reason why contradictory and unclear language needs to be used to describe this activity. It seems that much of the text here involves a spin to (falsely) portray the organization as somehow largely self-sustaining. That may be how the organization would like to be perceived by the public which actually pays for it, but it's not our business to promote them or their interests, but merely to tell it as it is, and make the reader aware of how the organization operates. We don't have to take anyone's word for it that borrowing money at interest is a way to generate "income." And it would be entirely reasonable and expected for this article to discuss the motives of the donor countries, if in fact they are giving their taxpayers money to a largely charitable cause. zadignose 23:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


Thank you for your comments. This article is taken from a hastily undertaken report written by myself using mainly the World Bank website as my basis. I merely posted what I could on here to ensure that (as at the time the World Bank Group and World Bank were considered one and the same by the Wikipedia Community) people could have some basic understanding of what the World Bank is and what it does. I do not pretend to understand how exactly the Bank works, or I would be happy to clarify.

This article, as written by me, was intended as an entirely objective study for the company for which I work (these sections merely providing background) and as such, I must stipulate that most, if not all of this information comes from the World Bank website itself. I did not have time to research or verify any of the information herein and, as such, this article may indeed distort the truth. However, the vast majority of this information, although currently unsourced, is available on the World Bank (not World Bank Group) website.

I did not want to post too much about the conspiracies surrounding the Bank as I have no factual evidence to support them. It is of course worth looking into the Wolfowitz scandal, the Transmigration project, and the accusations of the World Bank as a tool for US Imperialism or Covert Globalism and the possibility that it operates without an adequate understanding of its beneficiaries and their problems. I have no views on these matters, but have come across various points during my research. I hope this may have been of some use to any interested readers. 62.72.110.11 14:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)/Whiskey in the Jar

Two important points I would make in response to the original query: 1. The World Bank does not make grants to developing countries, it loans money and then charges interest on the loans (I assume that the interest rate on the loans is higher than the interst charged on the AAA bonds, suggesting that this is one of the ways that the bank remains sustainable).
2. Saying that the Bank is 'Market Based' could be referring to the policies of the World Bank, which are to promote market based policies in developing countries, e.g. large infrastructure projects and aid conditionality which encourages the privatization and marketization of developing country economies - encouraging Foreign Direct Investment, liberalization of trade etc. This is also one of the key criticisms of the Bank (as alluded to by the second editor to post here) - that it opens up developing country economies to compete in a global marketplace, when these economies are unable to compete in on an equal footing and lose out to TNCs, rich countries that subsidise their agriculture etc. Pexise 08:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lack of balance

I found the discussion interesting. It is reasonable to say that the article at present is unbalanced because it presents the bank's policies in a neutral and uncritical way. These policies are deeply disputed, both among academics (see David Harvey, A Brief History of Neoliberalism) and among activists who have protested the bank's policies. There should at least be a section on "Criticisms of the World Bank" See the Wikipedia article for Neoliberalism Alan, 22 Aug 2007.

Agreed - the article uses World Bank claims with no critical balance. For example, saying that the bank promotes the reduction of poverty and empowerment of the poor would be hotly disputed by many academics and practitioners working in the field of development. Definitely needs a section recognising some of this literature, Harvey would be a good start, also Noreena Hertz, Naomi Klein and policy work by many NGOs. Pexise 15:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remove Neutrality Warning

Presenting factual information in a neutral manner is not, as has been suggested, the hallmark of unbalanced, POV writing. "Neoliberal" ideology should be kept out of the this article. Readers should be provided with factual information on the organization of the World Bank and its means of operation does and should be allowed for form their own opinions as to whether these activities are beneficial or harmful. If this issue needs to be refereed it should be resolved quickly and the neutrality warning removed. Jaedglass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaedglass (talk • contribs) 03:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On Neutrality

I thought it necessary to present external links from both sides - PROs and ANTIs. This might help in removing the neutrality warning. But I think it is best if someone present another section addressing the negative views. (Don't say it should be me) —Preceding unsigned comment added by F345 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems the article World Bank Group contains mostly criticism, and this article contains mostly "about us" style information, so merging the two and rephrasing non-neutral statements would probably result in a more balanced article. -- Beland 15:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Maybe. Except that they are different organisations. Thus, merging the two would be akin to merging articles on Christianity and Islam; sure, they may have their similarities, but they arren't the same. 62.72.110.11 09:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
They are not different organisations: the World Bank refers to the IBRD and the IDA, two of the five institutions of the World Bank Group. So, the World Bank is actually PART OF the World Bank Group. In which case, two articles is appropriate. Pexise 10:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
That's what I was saying, and what I thought I made clear in the article... You wouldn't say Texas and the USA were the same thing, thus the World Bank and the World Bank Group should not be considered as the same thing either. 62.72.110.11 15:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality to-do list

The three above "neutrality" sections of this talk page address, I think, similar concerns. As the article stands today there is a "criticisms" section which is well sourced. I'm sure that there are still a number of issues which need to be addressed; I agree that most of the article is pulled from the "about-us" type pages on the World Bank's own website. Why don't we start a list of "to-do" type items: things that need to be fixed in order for the neutrality tag to be removed. Then we can discuss and tackle each in turn, and make progress to getting rid of that eyesore tag :-). I'll start a list if no one else does, but I'd rather have someone with a stronger opinion else kick it off. -FrankTobia (talk) 04:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The issues of the missing "Criticism" section and the unbalanced external links section have already been resolved. I failed to find any other specific reasons for the neutrality tag on this talk page. Could anyone point to the specific statements of the article that they believe are POV? This is the only way how we can fix them. If there are no specific POV statements, the tag should be removed. Andrzej Kmicic (talk) 05:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)