Talk:Working Class Hero

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[edit] Green Day cover section

I find very surprising that the section on the cover version by Green Day is larger than the section on the original song by Lennon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.65.227.179 (talk • contribs) , 22:28, 18 November 2007

Well it is not that much bigger, but the reasons are simple: the green day cover is fresh, there is more info about it, like the quotes, then there is also the talk about the event it was made for. Donny (talk) 11:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment about Marx

I've removed a rather incongruous single-sentence paragraph comparing the sentiments of the "doped with religion" line, with Marx's "opiate of the masses". Aside from the stylistic problems of the paragraph, the disdain Lennon's line appears to carry for the "fucking peasants" is not necessarily similar to Marx's sentiment. Certainly the statement that it is could be seen a disputable, and an instance of Original research. Either way. I don't like it, and am removing it. It can be replaced, but I'd hold that it's a contentious statement. cmsg

[edit] uncited statement

It was controversial in that it was one of the first popular songs to include the word "fucking." In contrast to the usual censorship laws, the record label printed the word clearly.

This statement is accompanied by a "citation needed" tag. If I may chime in, in the lyrics booklet of my CD copy, the word is replaced with a "*." So, the part about the record label printing the world clearly is most likely false. If anyone can upload a scan of the original vinyl issue's lyric sheet as source that the word is printed clearly, as this article states, then the statement can be left in. If not, the erroneous information should be deleted. (Ibaranoff24 14:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Statement about Lennon being not from working class roots and the other Beatles being angry with the song because of this

This statement should not be here. It requires citation. Anything that you have to say, "Allegedly," unless the information is common knowledge, does not belong in an encyclopedia. So I deleted it. :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.230.86.251 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for explaining. In the future, consider providing edit summaries to prevent your edits from being mistaken for vandalism. --Chodorkovskiy ^(talk) 18:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] middle-class - working class idea

About: "The irony of this song is that Lennon grew up in Woolton, which is one of the most afluent and middle-class areas of Liverpool."

I believe that the song is not really about "working class" in the classical meaning of the word. It is more about that the "middle-class" is an illusion, and that this is just the new form of a working class in the so called western world. So I do not know I that calling this "irony" is correct.

I'd agree with you there. The concept of the song is that lower classes are conned into working for the upper class due to the sense that they gain 'rise through the ranks' e.g. ", but you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see...there is room at the top, they are telling you still" - AlKing464 12:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, it doesn't make sense to say that a neighborhood is "one of the most affluent" areas of Liverpool, and at the same time to describe it as "middle class." It can't be both.

But more importantly, there is no irony here in any case. John wasn't claiming to be a hero either from or to the working classes. He was talking about the place of the "working class" in the popular imagination.

All very well, guys, but I'm afraid your own opinions/interpretations don't beong in a Wikipedia article. For any of these arguments to remain in the article you must provide citations from reliable, published works to support them - see The Beatles article for a related example of sourcing. With all the work on John Lennon around, it shouldn't be too difficult to find but if that isn't provided then the interpretions will be deleted as time goes on. Cheers, Ian Rose 08:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Rose, the content that is currently in the article is no less opinion and interpretation than what some of us are suggesting. The article assumes a contentious (and rather idiotic) interpretation of the song when it claims that Lennon's affluent background is a source of irony. If you think that interpretations of the song need to be cited and sourced, why doesn't your rule apply to that interpretation? The article also suggests that perhaps Lennon saw himself as a hero to the working class rather than from it. That might be true (though I doubt it) but in any case, that interpretation is not sourced or cited either. Perhaps the whole issue of Lennon's social class should simply not be addressed in this article.

Additionally, it is not a "matter of interpretation" that describing a neighborhood as "one of the most affluent"areas of Liverpool is incompatible with calling it "middle class." That's a matter of logic, not interpretation.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.78.24.43 (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

My anonymous friend, we may be in violent agreement - 'my' rule applies most particularly to the source of irony you mention, and to the third and fourth paras in general. The issue of "affluent" vs. "middle class" is secondary. However rather than removing those paras wholesale, I've tagged the article as unsourced, because it should be expanded and could well include info along similar lines, provided it can be attributed to reliable sources and is not simply the thoughts of a Wikipedia editor (see Wikipedia:No original research). Cheers, Ian Rose 21:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like it noted that, if Liverpool at the time consisted primarily of the 'middle class', then it is entirely possible for some to be more wealthy than others, unless you suggest that everyone given a certain class label has exactly the same level of prosperity. That you mightn't describe them as affluent in the absolute does not prohibit them from being 'more affluent', much the same way that a short person can still be taller than another short person. Regardless, I think tagging the article as unsourced is appropriate. A little investigation has revealed that Lennon's interview with Red Mole contains relevant info - 124.168.174.235 05:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. If Liverpool is a largely middle-class city, then it can make sense to describe some neighborhood within it as "one of the most affluent." But without that sort of background information, to call the neighborhood "affluent" is misleading. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.30.11.160 (talk) 13:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

You know; I did my teacher training placement in a primary school in the Wirrall and Liverpool is no more or less affluent than any other large northern English city: Liverpool is not and never was a predominently middle-class city though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wangpangu (talk • contribs) 10:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved all the unsourced analyses from the article

"One might find irony..." "It could be argued... " "Allegedly ..." "One common interpretation is ..." ^{[who?][who?][who?]} --91.148.159.4 00:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

One might find irony in the fact that Lennon grew up in Woolton, which is one of the most affluent and middle-class areas of Liverpool. However, it could be argued that Lennon is singing about being his status - that of being a hero to the working-class, rather than being a hero who is working class. Furthermore, Lennon's father Alfred "Freddie" Lennon was a merchant seaman, so in spite of John's relatively privileged upbringing, his roots were undoubtedly working-class.

Allegedly, many of the lyrics derive from his time during Primal Therapy and stem from his acceptance of life as opposed to the continual fight against it that society expects.

One other common interpretation of the lyrics is that of satire. He is saying in his lyrics that essentially no matter how hard you try to be what society wants which is a working class hero, it will never be good enough.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:JLPOBCover.jpg

Image:JLPOBCover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 10:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for image and employment in this article added to Image:JLPOBCover.jpg. Cheers, Ian Rose 11:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Green day working class hero.jpg

Image:Green day working class hero.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Green Day's Music Video

there are several "raw clips" of the working class hero music video. what does that mean?--Greenday21 (talk) 16:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)Greenday21