Talk:Word of Wisdom

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Archive 1

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[edit] Seems like a debate

As a member of the church, I thought that the article was true to the Word of Wisdom, however, I felt like I was reading a debate. Shouldn't an encyclopedia article contain information about the topic, rather than a discussion of the pro's and con's? I suppose it is trying to view both sides of the issue, but I would have preferred an article that stuck with information from our prophets and more in-depth about the blessings promised and background information of the church.

The article is confusing, and certain statements (i.e., paragraph about Joseph Smith having wine in prison) makes it sound like it is a trivial commandment that is not taken seriously. Although, I do agree that we, as LDS people, should be more observant of the directions towards meat (I thought the part about meat being served at church functions regardless of the weather or temperature was actually amusing).

I wish this could be re-written as a more informative document, rather than a debate or pro vs. con.


[edit] Ideas

Looks like it's been a while since there's been discussion here. I have a few initial comments/suggestions. First, why not include the full text of D&C 89 in the article? Is there a copyright issue? Or is something that old in the public domain by now? It's not very long, and surely the original text is highly relevant. Also needs NPOV in places. And, why are we debating the health risks of coffee in this article? It's already covered in Coffee. Not sure about the entire last part of the article, in fact. Is it appropriate to debate this here, or does that merely amount to collaborative original research? Is it an artifact of pro and anti LDS people fighting in the past? Friday 7 July 2005 03:00 (UTC)

The more I read it, the more I don't like this bit, near the beginning: It contains health guidelines intended "[t]o be sent [to the church] not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom." The guidelines were given as a voluntary "principle with [a] promise", in order to combat the perceived "evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days". The interspersed quotations make for a bumpy read. If quotations are desires, why not quote the entire intro from D&C? I'll try that and see how it goes. Friday 7 July 2005 07:04 (UTC)

The health code and modern medicine section is here because the Word of Wisdom claims that it is a health code. There needs to be an analysis about the evidence of real health effects of the practices included in the Word of Wisdom. The risks and benefits are an abbreviated form of the information which appears elsewhere, hence the links to the main articles. This is common throughout the wikipedia. Nevertheless, the information needs to be here. The health risks of coffee is not being debated, but the benefits and risks are listed. I'm willing to discuss the change, but I won't allow the deletion without a good argument. Nereocystis 7 July 2005 17:14 (UTC)
Section 89 is in the public domain, but it is long enough (21 verses), and in sufficiently archaic language, that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to just quote the whole thing verbatim, without interspersing commentary. As to the "modern medicine" section, I don't think it should be an opinionated medical debate on the effects of alcohol or caffeine. Rather, it should be a factual discussion about how and why Mormons began in the 20th Century to look toward modern medicine (and/or pseudomedicine) to justify the revelation. The question of whether or not caffeine is good or bad can be left to the caffeine page. COGDEN July 7, 2005 17:42 (UTC)
The downside of inserting commentary is that you're now presenting some particular person or group's interpretation of the text. Altho, maybe it's appropriate to do this, but only with the official LDS interpretation, since they're by far the largest and best known group. Would it be considered anti-Mormon POV though, to show for example the "hot drinks" verse side by the side with the modern interpretation that says "hot drinks" does not mean "hot drinks"? I'm a newbie so I don't know what to think about issues like that. I will say I do agree with COgden's remarks about the modern medicine section tho. I don't think the question of whether or not caffience or alcohol is good or bad should be addressed on this page. We're not here to determine whether the Wow makes sense from a medical point of view, we're here to document it as a religious text. We can point out that the church teaches that it makes you healthier, without getting into whether this would be considered objectively true by the medical community. Friday 7 July 2005 18:01 (UTC)
I'm confused by COGDEN's comments. Does s/he think that the current section should be changed? If so, what should be changed? The current modern medicine section is not an opiniated debate, it is a list of a few studies which have examined health and items listed in the Word of Wisdom, with citations. Because the Word of Wisdom is listed as a health code, it is extremely reasonable to determine whether the Word of Wisdom modifies health. If the Word of Wisdom were listed as arbitrary required behavior which has no claims of influencing health, then listing medical studies may not be appropriate. Allowing claims of health benefits without pointing out the truthfulness of these claims is extremely POV, effectively limiting the commentary to only the official LDS POV.
However, I agree about including the entire text of the Word of Wisdom. It is probably too long to be useful. There is a link to the entire text under references, though it can be a challenge to determine which link includes the entire text. Try it. I suggest modifying the references so that the link is more obvious, but I don't have the solution yet.Nereocystis 7 July 2005 18:08 (UTC)
I'm not sure I agree that the full text is too long to be included. The article as it stands right now is far, far longer than the complete text of Section 89. And, the current version contains things that are (IMO) far less relevant to the topic than would be the actual text of the revelation. Friday 7 July 2005 18:30 (UTC)
I'm not completely against including the entire text. The WoW is fairly short. However, I would not want to drop sections of the current text to make room the WoW, since there is a link to the complete text. I revised the link in the references section. Is it any clearer? Nereocystis 7 July 2005 18:40 (UTC)

I think it would be highly appropriate to add a paragraph about "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation." President Hinckley has given fairly well-quoted discourse about this specific verse. In this light, the difference between alcoholic beverages, for example, in Paul's time and today is simply how and why it is produced, and how it is advertised and sold. This could be viewed as a primary cause for the existence of the doctrine altogether. Bruce 05:46, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Could you give a few references on this interpretation. I don't know as much about modern Mormon stuff in the last 20 years or so. This Paul's time argument sounds odd. Cigarettes changed tobacco, of course. Read the Lester Bush article for a description of dietary restrictions in the 19th century; it's quite interesting. If it belongs in the article, I would tend to put it in Word_of_Wisdom#Interpretation_and_extension_of_the_Word_of_Wisdom_by_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints, since it is a recent interpretation. Nereocystis 21:45, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

The most famous is probably this: "What are these evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men? It must be the tremendous amount of money the Lord saw they would spend in the last days in advertising to induce his children to use these things which are not good for men. Many millions of dollars are spent annually in the United States and other countries of the world to advertise cigarettes and other tobacco products, wine, beer, and other liquors, and coffee and tea, all of which have been proven to be injurious to the body and all of which the Lord indicated are not good for men." (LeGrand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, p.353) Looking up all citations to this verse (v4) in the LDSCL 2005, I have come up with about 230 references, most of which emphasize that it was created "in consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days. Thus, it would have had no application in the New Testament Church, but has specific application today. Bruce 03:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

One example is good. Of course, the original WofW allows beer, non-hot coffee and tea, which aren't injurious to most people. Wasn't Joseph Smith's time considered the last days? I'm not sure about that. Nereocystis 06:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

The entire text should not be included. See Wikipedia:Don't_include_copies_of_primary_sources. Nereocystis 06:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

There is a fairly clear historical line showing that the Word of Wisdom was used in accountability interviews (in the Brigham Young SLC group) only for church leadership until the 1930s. If someone out there has these dates and is poised to add them, then it would be very useful. If not, I would like to work on that, if folks feel it is appropriate. Few people understand that nearly 100 years passed before general membership were asked to account for how they accepted the WoW. It was used in leadership interviews, then moved to all who were going to serve missions, and finally to general membership. What do people think? Jerekson 02:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tobacco smoking recognized as health threat

The caption on the cigarette smoking photo says:

Tobacco smoking is one of the activities the Word of Wisdom advised against years before it was recognized as a health threat by the medical community.

This is not true. The article by Bush in Dialogue compares the Word of Wisdom to 19th century practices. Tobacco smoking was disliked by many doctors at the time the Word of Wisdom was issue, and for two centuries before then. See page 56. I plan on deleting this claim. Nereocystis 22:27, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Rather than deleting, how about placing into better context - that it wasn't generally accepted by most smokers. Doesn't Bush's argument state that the medical community has basically always been against smoking as a health threat? But popular opinion was that it was not neccessarily unhealthy. That popular opinion only swayed in the mid 20th century. In addition, anyone who smokes would realize that a smoker's cough or smoker's weeze was caused by smoking, but although evidence was there to support, people rejected it. Context is better than deletion in this case. Thoughts? -Visorstuff 23:22, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Not all doctors agreed in the 19th century. I would like this text from the caption. There's too much which would need to be explained. I would like to put the Word of Wisdom in historical context, but that will take an additional section, and a bit of writing, perhaps summarizing Bush's statements. Nereocystis 23:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I think I reverted a clip of the caption. If it happens again, I won't revert it. I didn't realize it was so controversal. :-S — Frecklefoot | Talk 01:53, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
As far as I remember, the Word of Wisdom doesn't have anything to say about "smoking". However, it does proscribe the use of tobacco. What about if the caption is changed to, "Tobacco use is one of the activities the Word of Wisdom advises against." Val42 03:24, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
That'd be fine with me, for one. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:17, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
I noticed the caption that says "all alcoholic beverages.. are prohibited". This could lead to disagreement. The problem with saying "The Word of Wisdom says..." is that it's ambiguous. The "WoW" could be referring to D&C 89, or to the current mandatory health code of the LDS church, which are two different things, unfortunately referred to by the same name. This double meaning is explained nicely in the article intro, but as mentioned above it might be too complicated to be explained well in a short caption. Would something like All alcoholic beverages, such as the Margarita, are prohibited by LDS doctrine be an acceptable replacement for the current All alcoholic beverages, such as the Margarita, are prohibited by the Word of Wisdom? Friday (talk) 15:04, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure, great, sounds good. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:15, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Beer allowed, and other illicit drugs

An anonymous user claimed that beer was not allowed in early WofW. This is wrong. Beer was allowed. The changes also claim that other illicit drugs weren't known or invented at the time. Perhaps the user has not heard of opium, marijuana, betel nut, coca, etc. Nereocystis 05:38, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Martini picture and 'effects of Coffee'

The section on the health effects of alcohol is good, it relates to the rest of the article, but the effects coffee seems to be something that could have been directly cut from a different article without connection to WoW. Does anybody know enough to make a more direct link? I admit to being amused by the '...such as this martini' picture, but are we sure that we should be putting jokes in the articles? Or is it just me? MilesVorkosigan 19:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BYU Banned Caffeine?

I just thought I would ask about it here first, but the following comment seems a little incorrect: "on the campus of Church-sponsored Brigham Young University, caffeinated drinks of any kind are banned." It seems apparent to me (a current BYU student) that the university doesn't "ban" these drinks, but that they are simply not sold on campus. I would rather that the word be editted to read "not sold" instead of "banned." I've walked around on campus drinking Mountain Dew often and nothing's happened to me. Also, I think that introducing the phrase with "Interestingly" is a little POV, but I might be wrong about that; perhaps it is interesting, just not to me. (Actually, I find it slightly annoying more than interesting.) Comments? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NoCoolName Tom (talk • contribs) .

I agree with both points, thanks for clearing it up. Go ahead and make the changes. Tijuana Brass¡Épa!-E@ 04:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
"Interestingly, caffeinated drinks are not sold on the campus of Church-sponsored Brigham Young University." I've removed this whole line, because BYU has sold them in the past. It's simply discussions like this that cause them to stay clear of controversy. But I was just in Deseret Book headquarters a few weeks ago, and the Coke distributor rolled on by with cases of caffeinated coke. Maybe he was going elsewhere, but that makes no sense whatsoever. The only reasonable explanation is that they sell caffeinated drinks at Deseret Book (church owned, church run; and 30 feet off of, and overlooking, Temple Square), so whether they sell them at BYU must be moot.--Mrcolj 22:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Deseret Book is very different from BYU. BYU is different from a lot of things in the church. One of those things is that they don't sell caffeinated soda on campus. The only other places like that are the MTC and Temple cafeterias. Maybe they were sold in the past, but that is not what the statement is saying, it's talking about the present. Wrad 22:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

But I believe the point of the statement in the article was that BYU not selling caffeine was on some level a tacit endorsement of that interpretation of the word of wisdom, which it is not because BYU only quit selling caffeine 15 years ago... And if someone is tempted to take BYU's selling as a tacit endorsement, then the church's selling caffeine through one of its other official arms negates that assumption and bears being said aloud. If BYU, the MTC and the temple cafeterias are the only church owned food dispensaries that don't sell coke, what's the point of the statement in the first place? --Mrcolj 02:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You're right, shouldn't be used to endorse, but may be good as a fact in a simple sentence. The only reason these three places would be this way is because of the issues surrounding the subject. They're easily the three strictest foci of mormonism. This, I think, makes it a notable fact about the subject, if presented right. Wrad 03:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Covenants'?

Why are all the Doctrine and Covenants refered to by 'Covenants' and then the chapter and verse? The chapter and verse is standard, but I've never seen the book refered to as 'Covenants' and can't see any possible reason for labeling it that way. The proper way to label it is 'Doctrine and Covenants' or 'D & C'. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious; I'm new to Wikipedia and a lot of things seem strange to me. Sergeanthowarth 06:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right in pointing out that it is not the standard (or accepted) manner of referring to the D&C. However, the only instance I noticed was the first reference, which read "Covenant 89". It's now fixed. Were there others that I've missed? Feel free to correct them yourself if you see any. Tijuana BrassE@ 07:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I corrected all the references, on 27 August 2006, to say "D&C 89" instead of "Covenant 89". For chapter-only references, either "D&C 89" or "Section 89" would be acceptable — but no one in the LDS Church ever uses a cite like "Covenant 89". Richwales 07:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meat?

I'm not sure I agree with taking out the paragraph about current LDS practice with regard to eating meat. I think it would still be appropriate to include something mentioning that LDS do not generally avoid meat nowadays, even though D&C 89 does seem to suggest that this ought to be done. Richwales 07:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I just revised it. See if you can stomach it's current wording. :-S — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caffine

I, for one, can confirm the statements about caffine. I and most people around me make that disticntion, so we do eat chocolate, but do not drink coca cola unless it is caffine free. I know that it's not enough to have some people who do, but I'm just putting in my two cents about that citation needed tag. Silverfireshadow (talk) 23:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hot drinks confusion

(That's me who's confused, incidentally!) There's no explanation in the article as to why church members generally feel that, say, hot chocolate isn't covered by the prohibition. I looked up the reference in the footnotes, and found that the relevant passage says "And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly." It doesn't say "And again, hot drinks, except for chocolate and a few others, are not for the body or belly". Please understand that I am absolutely not interested in a religious argument here, since that would have nothing to do with the article. My point is that there is no explanation as to why, when, and how, the likes of chocolate, Ovaltine etc came to be thought of as not "hot drinks" within the meaning of the phrase. It's very far from obvious. 86.132.140.45 (talk) 17:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's in the section titled "Application by Joseph Smith, Jr.". It explains there that Hyrum Smith interpreted "hot drinks" as meaning tea and coffee, and that Joseph Smith, Jr. confirmed this interpretation. You have to read the article as a whole, including the historical sections; then it makes sense. Zoporific 22:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speculative sections

There seems to be a proliferation of speculation in this article and the tendency to add more and more such information. I suggest that these sections/speculations should not be included unless they can be adequately referenced with some sign that someone apart from WP editors are doing the speculating. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)