Talk:Womb envy
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[edit] Creation is not one-sided
In case nobody has had a biology class lately, the ability to create life is not a sole function of the woman. Both sperm and egg are involved. A woman needs a man, just as a man needs a woman, to create a child. Therefore, a woman can also NEVER create on her own.
Why does each gender continually try to assert superiority over the other, especially in this age of gender "equality"? Women have been unequal for ages, and now that society is finally moving towards equality they want to run with their newfound freedoms and try to exert superiority (as evidenced by your tirade)? It seems to me that women are just as in love with power as men are.
Dgabrech 23:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Genuine or Not
Is this just feminist attack of or satire on Penis Envy? Do the majority of psychologists seriously accept this?
To be frankly honest with you, I don't think freuds complexes are taken seriously by psychologists, more his ideas about the subconcious, pyschoanalysis and so forth. mikeoman (2154 17 July 2006)
lady philosopher; I independantly came upon a similar idea using a different term, "Creation Envy", after a 50 years of living life adventurously and raising 2 children. I have watched and participated in all kinds of relationships: work, collaboration, family, life changes, travels with and without money, living decades in a foreign country, studying and surviving as well as enjoying life whether it gave me only a little to enjoy or a lot, just to name a few. In any case, I have been victim of male violence as well as a rare occaision of female carping or backstabs. I have witnessed even more of that as a concious global citizen. Despite the fact that I enjoy life, I will not ignore that it contains some nasty stuff. I study philosophy at Uni as a continuation of the questions and observations I have had all my life. When I found myself being accused of doing the very ammoral things by the father of my children that instead he was doing I realized that I was functioning as a mirror to him of himself. He was projecting on me his anger about how he had been found out in all these acts. I re heard the same sorts of accusations from so many males to so many positive women that I had a flash..... these guys are so angry at us when we have children. I have heard time and time again of how men get jealous of their offspring for the woman's attention..... But he COULD go to bed with me if he would just get his act together. So what kind of Oedipal conflict is that!! Conclusion: not dear Oedipus, but angry and crazy mad that I (woman) can create something that on his own he could NEVER do. Does not like NEVER. He show the world; he has to go and build buildings and monuments and roads and social structures that get analysed to sterility, economic structures around commercial productive structures that dehumanize anybody involved with them, factories and slaves.... well it just goes on and fits too well.
CREATION ENVY; we women do it from the inside and ask for consideration for having taken the time to join humanity's genes together with another person, while men to create something have to create a purposeful structure so that they too can MAKE something. Now they have put together a Corporate society which is draining women dry of any desire to sit back and mysteriously give life to more people.
- You tell me if it does not fit as a way of explaining all the terrible violence perpetrated upon women and children. For me, it fits. So now I live with a man who makes music and makes paths of understanding especially for small children. He is wonderful and enjoys it when I am happy. He loves what I have been able to make of my life and being a part of it. He is Not Jealous, he honors it. So, now I know that there are men out there who can let that come through. They are often not very successful in this male world surrounding them, but they have a place in my psyche as a reason to have kept looking for a fellow traveler.
[edit] Date of theory
What date was this concept first founded? and please made additions to it
[edit] Fear?
It would be nice if someone could explain (in the article, citing sources) why men would be fearful of these things. --Nnp 18:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
To answer your question:- it might be worth going over the Sigmund Freud argument and the role of complexes. To put it as a fearful concept is a misleading explanation, a better way of explaining this would be to describe it as a "Jealousy thing". During childhood boys develop a envy towards the opposite gender, boys when they are young become jealous as they are unable to give birth- as these thoughts are deemed inappropriate by society, they are subsequently repressed, these become complexes. The womb envy complex will affect the individual through the forces of the dynamic subconcious that in turn affects behaviour, one example may be a subconscious fear of women and so forth? I got this information from the book 'introducing psychoanalysis' (can't remember the author) hope this answers your question mikeoman. (2154 17 July 2006)
lady philosopher: Fear of NEVER being able to do what that other type of person can do. Where did UNIVERSALIZING EQUALITY go??? Hierarchical mind set took over and lashes out regularly. Who else can create like we women do? GOD. That is scary for some. If we can create life what is out our reach? We are witches!!! Scary.
[edit] No such thing and you know it
This article and the attitude of this site is so obviously radically neo-liberal feminist that its disgusting! "Creation envy"???? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Women do not even "create" babies in that context... Disgusting and so ignorant!
Firstly i'd like to say, before anything too heavy is discussed- that the article is based upon a perception an argument- and as such it cannot be discarded however its strengths and weaknesses must be discussed here and then put into an academic perspective in the article. However I do in part agree with the lady philosopher in the opening statement stating that "It refers to men's purported fear and jealousy of women's power to give birth and nurture life" in that it implies that women use pregnancy and motherhood in general as a "emotional weapon" against men- this I find very offensive to both women and men. Perhaps we can simplify it to simply "men are fearful of jealous of a womans ability to give birth and to nurture children"
OK- onto the heavy stuff- as lady philosopher has pointed out the article has implications for feminists as Karen Horney the article seems to imply corporations growing large due to mans desire to oppress women, whether or not Karen Horney intended it this way should be debated here. I personally feel that calling Horney a feminist is flawed as it presumes that men are both unable to raise a child and do not raise children- both of which are untrue there are single fathers whom can raise their children and there are fathers whom are enthrilled by the concept of fatherhood, if anything I would call Horney patriarcal, however, this is my opinion and we all need to discuss this and whether or not feminism has a place in an article based upon a psychological perspective. Also being as I don't have the 'psychological backbone' in which to rely on I do not know if the oppressive thesis is quoted by Horney. I think the article needs serious expanding and it needs to be more coherant and easier to understand- this is what I propose-
We need to discuss womb envy in context of penis envy more clearly so that the reader can understand that Horney uses a Freudian paradigm, could somebody with more 'psychological backbone' could make some links?
I propose we find other psycholgists whom disagree and agree with Horneys views. Does Horney have any contempories? Did she influence anyone?
I don't see how this theory relates altruism, I think it's more of a selfish act jealousy, perhaps I've missed the point or perhaps it needs expanding either way right now it's hard to understand and needs rewriting.
I don't see how the article relates to evoloutionary psychology- this too needs expanding
Where is this concept applied?
If we discuss these first primary issues we can expand the article from there, I don't intend that we structure the article in my order I put them in and do feel free to create new little subcatagories so that the discussion page is more coherant.
--Mikeoman 00:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] My boyfriend is constantly talking about it.
I don't know why, but my boyfriend says that he would feels insufficient as a husband if he didn't do more work than the woman, because women give birth which is the most important thing, which doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, if it were up to me, I sure as hell wouldn't want to give birth to the little demon, and I would feel like unevenly distributing work is unfair. I personally wouldn't really care who brought home enough money, as long as we got by alright and both worked as hard, but he claims that he would feel uncomfortable if he made more money than I am, since I did my job by giving birth to the baby. It's weird, but he's not sexist or anything. He just has this weird thing that I hope to talk him out of.
[edit] The term womb envy isn't in the index of Horney's book
I can't find any trace of womb envy in the 1993 reprint of Horney's book. Is this entry misattributed to her?
Reillyd 04:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] May 07 Rewrites
I've removed the middle paragraph speculating on evolutionary psychology
This may be a psychological factor in altruistic motivations in men in manifesting evolutionary psychological inborn genetic tendencies towards Altruism. [citation needed]
If it can be sourced and expalined please readd it. I've also rewritten chunks of the article because it was poorly phrased, passive and at times unclear - I hope this rewrite helps--Cailil talk 19:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] merge suggestion with vagina envy
related in various ways, but focusing on different aspects. Both articles deserve great expansion, and I think they would turn out to be=quite different. DGG (talk) 00:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC) no consensus for merge, so the redirect has been reverted. Discuss here first. DGG (talk) 01:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
