Talk:Wolfenstein 3D

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Famicom style controller This article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
High This article is on a subject of High priority within gaming for inclusion in Wikipedia 1.0.
VG To-do:

Contents

[edit] Early Inspirations

I don't know where this information was gathered about Wolf3D being based off of Ultima Underworld technology, but Wolfenstein's technology was an upgraded technology of that of SoftDisk (Gamer's Edge division) Technologies' Catacomb 3D which was designed by John Romero, John Carmack, Adrian Carmack, Tom Hall, Jason Blochowiak, and Bobby Prince. The engine used in Catacomb 3D was essentially the same as that which was used in Wolfenstein 3D, only in EGA. However as one will see with the Wolfenstein 3D Alpha which has been available on the 'net for a few years, the original Wolfenstein 3D was originally based around an EGA engine as well (Many sprites in the game are still using an EGA palette), likely the very same Catacomb 3D Engine.

This is not referring to the later game entitled Catacomb Abyss which followed Wolfenstein 3D and was developed by a separate team, but the original Catacomb 3D (first released in 1991, then 1992 and a separate re-release named Catacomb 3D: The Descent later).

The article doesn't say Wolf3D was based on Underworld technology, but inspired by it. Apparently John Carmack saw a demo of Underworld at some trade show (CES or something) and then was inspired to write his own engine which lead to Catacomb first and Wolf later. See this article [1] for some information. TerokNor 21:41, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

The hyphen is part of the game's name, so it's really Wolfenstein 3-D, source

Yes, I agree. It should be moved there. Teklund 17:23, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
That may be, but 3DR is only a publisher in this case, whereas id is the developer, and they seem to have since dropped the dash in 3-D. Actually I'm not sure if they ever intended there to be a dash... Either way, I see both used, so I'm not sure (yet) the article should be moved. Retodon8 20:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
General use seems to be '3D' rather than '3-D', I'd be tempted to leave the article where it is. Cpc464 12:06, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
It's "3D" on id Software's website, as well. Fredrik | talk 13:20, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Historical accuracy & mythology

I think it would be interesting to read something about the connection between the game and real Nazi activity. Is Castle Wolfenstein inspired by some real Nazi fortification? Does the game plot contain any details, characters and so on from the historical world? It would also be interesting to read more about the "mythology" of the games. Who are the bosses? What happens in the different episodes? --62.181.79.151 11:13, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As the article mentions, the game was inspired by the game Castle Wolfenstein for the Apple II, not by any real-world fortification. AAMOF, many of the levels were--when viewed from top-down--just fanciful designs. As for more details, we'll just have to wait for some more Wolf 3D fanatics to read the article. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:44, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)
The designs were spectacularly fanciful - as the article mentions, E3M10 was a direct model of PacMan; E2M5, E3M8 and E6M3 both heavily featured swastikas in their maps (particularly E6M3, built almost entirely of tesselated swastikas!); while other levels like E5M4 exhibited a remarkable and unexpected symmetry.
That said, no discussion of Wolfenstein is complete without mentioning that the boss of Episode 3 ("Die, Fuhrer, Die!") is none other than Adolf Hitler himself... ;-) Kinitawowi 12:51, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)
"The, Leader, The" is very bad grammar. -Sean Curtin 21:57, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I hope you'rs joking, it's supposed to be "Die" as in death. Or also a pun to be translated as "The Leader, die!" It's definatly not "The leader the".... 05:38, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's a joke reference to the Simpsons; Sideshow Bob has a tattoo which reads "Die Bart, Die!", which he claims is German for "The Bart, The". Kinitawowi 11:59, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
Which both in Hitler's and Sideshow Bob's case (correctly pointed out here) is nonsense, because the correct German article for Hitler and Bart would be "Der", not "Die". But didn't the Wolfenstein level pre-date the Simpsons episode? Christian Rödel
It really is unlikely id got the joke from The Simpsons, even if possible chronologically! Plus what Christian Rödel said, so no. :) Retodon8 20:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Acually, no it's just mixed German and English. "Die" (english) "Fuirer" (german) "Die" (english) - I'd expect some people actually said things like that sometime around world war II --Nerd42 17:06, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

You're exactly right, it's a mix of German and English. Any attempt at complete direct translation into German would be a lost cause, since it was in fact merely a mix of the two languages, which I might mention was not uncommon throughout the course of the game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.199.190 (talk) 06:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's quite simple: "Stirb Fuehrer, stirb!"(german) or "Die leader, die!"(english). 88.68.218.232 (talk) 00:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SNES Port

The article states "Three new weapons and a score system were added as well" in regards to the SNES port. I'm pretty sure the original PC version featured a scoring system, and the player collected gold to get points. Someone please confirm this?

Also, I think the article should discuss other ports a little more (like the GBA port, which appears very faithful... but has no music). Some guy 21:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map overviews

A bit off the topic, but where can map overviews be found for Wolf 3D? I have searched all over and have not been able to locate them. Maybe a link for that could go in the article. Cheers.

Are you talking about graphical maps to the different levels? If so, a simple 10 second Google for "Wolfenstein 3D" and using the "Images" tab got me: http://www.belowe.com/wolf3d.htm There may be more suitable versions; these seem to be simple screenshots from within a map editor. Retodon8 13:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Duke Nukem?

User:203.84.186.62 added that a secret level contained Duke Nukem. Does anyone know which level that would be? I have never heard of it. If no one can confirm this, I will delete it. TerokNor 16:16, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you ask me, it was some sort of joke, or maybe that person thought... I don't know, maybe Hans Grosse was Duke Nukem or something. It would have to a be a pre-DN3D Duke Nukem too of course. I was pretty familiar with the game, the levels, the textures used; I was playing around with Bill Kirby's MapEdit back then, and no Duke Nukem. I'll not delete it, just in case I'm wrong, but I sincerely doubt it. Retodon8 22:33, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'll delete it then. If anyone can prove it's true, they can just add it back. TerokNor 17:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The Nintendo 64 version of Duke Nukem contains a multiplayer level called Wolfenstein.

Eh, no it doesn't. It's called 'Castle Dukenstein', and it's supposed to be like Dr Frankenstein's castle. Razstar 14:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wolfenstein 4D

Someone recently wrote about this in the article. Can someone find a source?--Drat (Talk) 07:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I doubt that this is correct. The contribution says that Distinctive Software was involved, but in 1992 (when the development would have happened), Distinctive Software was already EA Canada. TerokNor 10:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The German press called the game often Hundefelsen 4D to avoid any problems because you all know the game is banned in Germany.

[edit] complete sprite sheet?

Anybody know where I can get complete sprite sheets for the original graphics? --Nerd42 02:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

You can easyly rip it from the game using any editor from any of the related sites (which may even have the full game for downlad). 200.230.213.152 05:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Boss strategies.

Are they really needed? Wikipedia is not a game guide/strategy guide.--Drat (Talk) 03:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technical implementation

Other games using the Wolfenstein 3D game engine or developments of it were also produced, including, Blake Stone, Corridor 7, Operation Body Count, Super Noah's Ark 3D, Rise of the Triad, Shadowcaster and Hellraiser.::

I can find no supporting reference to a Hellraiser game using the Wolf3D engine, and several sites state that Shadowcaster uses an early Doom engine.

About Hellraiser: search harder, like here: http://www.planetnintendo.com/thewarpzone/hellraiser.html Calvero2 15:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Is the word coinage of Wolfenstein supposed to be a portmanteau of Wolf and frankenstein since the guard dogs look like wolves and that the stronghold is similar to Frankenstein? (unsigned comment from anon)

No, definately not. Wolf 3D is partly based on a game released in 1984 called Castle Wolfenstein and its sequel, Beyond Castle Wolfenstein. I believe the id guys actually snapped up the rights to the original games so that they could use the name.--Drat (Talk) 13:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, they didn't "snatch up the rights." John Carmack asked for permission from the original authors and they readily gave it. The Apple II was long dead by then. — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Even if the etymology does not come from the guard dogs, is "Wolfenstein" a pun on Frankenstein?
Most unlikely.--Drat (Talk) 02:11, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
A friend of mine who speaks fluent Deutsch said it meant something like wolf's rock. I think the name came from some castle's name somewhere there, dunno? 200.230.213.152 23:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein - In real life, Wolfenstein can be a dude, a rock formation or some village. I think in the end it could have been made to sound like the name of some castle in germany. Many castles in germany end on "-stein" (rock, stone).

[edit] PC-13

I've added ID's own PC-13 rating to the infothingy. While i know ID "invented" the PC-13 system, i do not know the specifics. Could someone who does please add them to the article somewhere? -- De Zeurkous (root@lichee.nichten.info), Sun Jun 4 18:17:42 UTC 2006

[edit] BJ Blazkowicz Gif

Screen captured the frames of BJ at the level end summary screen in the PC version. Rendered on Macromedia Fireworks and uploaded to page. -- Hnatiw , Wed June 21 2006

[edit] Who's Under Fake Hitler?

It would seem that Fake Hitler has more than a flame thrower under that robe. The sprite seems to have another person underneath it. Does anyone have any idea who's under there?

The fact they crumple to the floor in the way they do suggests otherwise. But to write anything regarding this in the article would be original research, without a reliable source.--Drat (Talk) 06:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I would hazard a guess that it's a cameo appearance by one of the game's designers, much like the head included in the last level of DOOM. But then, I have only my own experience to base this on :)
The enemies in Wolfenstein are drawn, not digitized from people or clay models.--Drat (Talk)

[edit] Was Quake the first real 3D FPS?

Hi!

I am not a programming nor a computer game expert, so I could be wrong, but I think Quake wasn't the first real 3D FPS. At the entry of Descent it states that it was released 1 year before Quake. I played both games and in Descent there is no limits of turning and moving, and I didn't see any cheating in graphics, so I think it had to be real 3D.

Technically, Descent is not a traditional 3D engine. While quake has brushes that makes up its floors, ceilings, and et cetera, whereas Descent uses a portal engine, which really is just a series of tunnels in space. While you're making the boundaries in Quake, you're making the space between the boundaries in Descent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.34.190 (talk) 22:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MODing

Ain't Wolf3d mods an important view on the game that should be covered in the article? Since it's source code release, it has spin-off'd many fan created mods and tcs and stuff... And kind of brought the game to life again... 200.230.213.152 05:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title music / Mac version

Article states ...the Horst-Wessel-Lied as theme music.... I assume the title music is meant; the game is full of mediocre little melodies but the title music is the only one with any distinction. But does this indeed share the melody of the Horst-Wessel-Lied?

I have the game -- Mac OS 9 version. I've played it often enough to be able to hum the tune at will. I've just now listened to it again, along with an MP3 of a perfectly straightforward performance of the Horst Wessel. They just don't seem alike.

For one, HW is in a major key -- a happy song if you can imagine happy storm troopers marching through the streets. Wolf is in a minor key and, to my ear, far more persuasive; if the Nazis had had id's music guy working for them they might have won the war. Arrangement aside, one does not even seem to be a straightforward transposition of the other.

Can anyone explain this? John Reid ° 13:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the Mac version, but I can tell about the PC original version. There is one song that plays from the loading screen, through the PG-13 screen, to the "Wolfenstein 3-D" screen. When you press enter, the main menu ("Options") appears, and another music song there. The first song is a happy, major key melody, that is exactly the Horst-Wessel-Lied. The second song (in the main menu) is a minor key song, which is the song I associate most with Wolfenstein (you can listen to a MIDI file of the second song I'm refering to here). I've seen this second song called "Wondering About My Loved Ones", btw. Anyway, I've seen both songs called the "theme music" from Wolfenstein 3-D, and as the Horst-Wessel-Lied appears during the title screen, it could be called the theme music. Maybe in the Mac version only the second song plays all the time... but I can assure you the Horst-Wessel-Lied is in fact played in the game, and can be considered the theme music.Sega381 05:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

How very, very interesting! The MIDI is completely unfamiliar to me. On my Mac, Wolf boots right up and goes straight into this intense, apocalyptic orchestration; I wonder if I should scrape it and put it up somewhere (for educational purposes only). Perhaps by the time MacPlay ported, id had already been through the Konfrontation with German law and decided to compose something better than Horst Wessel. John Reid ° 15:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

This webpage lists some of the changes betwen the Mac and PC versions of Wolfenstein-3D, including the music. The Mac version was ported from the Jaguar version, which was ported from the SNES version, where the song was dropped.Sega381 21:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Yes well, that explains the song, as I thought. However, in my Mac version, a lot of Nazi elements were restored; the SNES version doesn't read anything like what I've got on my desktop. Mine has Hitlers on all the walls, floors in the shape of swastikas, dogs, and plenty of blood. One real shortcoming is that all my sprites have only one side -- the front; there is no sneaking up on a guard. John Reid ° 23:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The Nazi and gore elements were only censored in the SNES version; they were probably restored in the Jaguar one, and therefore also in the Mac port, even though it is not mentioned in that page. Apparently, the song stayed cut in all three versions, though.Sega381 00:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Which leaves the question: What is that catchy tune? If you haven't heard it, you have no idea. If I hear a band marching down the street with that rolling out, I hide under my bed. John Reid ° 03:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

If you could find it online or put a sample MIDI, I could check if it is related to any of the other songs from the PC version of the game. However, it sounds like a pretty well-done song; my guess would be that they made it specially for one of the ports.Sega381 13:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to know if id invaded Lithuania with it. John Reid ° 14:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No in-game screenshots?

I'm surprised to see that this article didn't include even any in-game screenshot of actual gameplay. I hope nobody minds, but I've added two screenshots illustrating the original DOS version of the game and one showing the 3DO version. However, it does look a bit like the article is a little over-saturated with images as of now. Perhaps this would be good place to discuss if any should be removed? MarphyBlack 01:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the in-game shots are very important, so it's ok for them to be there. The Bosses images, nice as they may be, I'm not sure are really needed; and the "Aardwolf" one could probably go too. If we had to take some pictures out, I'd vote on those.Sega381 03:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
While I agree that the boss images could go as their inclusion probably isn't entirely all that encyclopedic, I think that the article would end up looking just a little too bare should they be removed. I completely agree that the Aardwolf sprite could taken out with no loss, but I also believe that the animated B.J. pic in the storyline section could be removed as well. It's a bit redundant seeing as B.J. is already depicted in both the box art and the title screen, both which are placed not too far above the animated B.J. pic, and I'm pretty sure that animated gifs are discouraged here in general (I don't see any real benefit from this particular image being animated, at least). I believe that removing just those two would space out the existing images just a bit, making the article look less crowded for now. MarphyBlack 04:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Very well, I agree with that.Sega381 12:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Done!Sega381 12:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aspect ratio correction of images

I'm going to correct the dimensions of the screenshots and boss images.... from 128x128 -> 128x160 and 320x200 -> 320x240. Then they have a 1:1 pixel aspect ratio (basically I'll be making it taller - that's how it actually is when full screen) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.173.178.218 (talk) 11:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC). Zephyr103

I would highly disagree with such a change. Although this is the aspect ratio in which the game is supposed to be displayed, this is not representative of the resolutions that the sprites were drawn at and not representative of the resolution that the screenshots were actually taken in. Despite the aspect ratio being different, the screen is still displaying the same amount of pixels (stretched vertically, as you said). Resizing the images manually through external methods will not accurately depict the quality of the game (it certainly depends on the kind of resampling that's done, i.e. nearest neighbor, bilinear, etc, but regardless, none will be accurate). Resizing will merely distort the images. To put it simply, it's not possible to 100% accurately represent what the games look in-game due to the slightly altered aspect ratio, but, I feel that it does the game far more justice to depict the screenshots and the graphics in their original drawn resolutions rather than try to artificially represent the "correct" aspect ratio.
And for the record, the 3DO image is displayed at the proper ratio. The screen is letterboxed slightly, so I just cropped off the black upper and bottom portions of the normally 320x240 screen. MarphyBlack 11:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, now that I see the images, I guess they really don't look bad at all. (I guess I've just had bad experiences with resizing images. Huh.) Still looks a little strange to me, or at least the boss sprites do. MarphyBlack 11:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the 3DO image. BTW, those images actually have noise/grain and an outline if you look really closely (you'd have to look even harder to see the distortion) BTW, those enemies are normally distorted even more in the game. (they are rarely exactly 2.00x, etc, their original size) I agree that it looks a bit strange, but if you play it at 320x200 it looks right. Zephyr103 11:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm... it seems that the height should be x1.2 so for 128x128 it should go to 128x153.6... I'm going to upload non-noisy versions at 128x154. I was thinking about adding animated versions but maybe that is unnecessary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zephyr103 (talk • contribs) 00:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC).


[edit] version comparisons

I'll expand this in the future...

http://members.chello.at/theodor.lauppert/games/wolf3d.htm

Feature PC Acorn/Archimedes Gameboy Advance Apple IIGS SNES Atari Jaguar Macintosh 3DO
Flamethrower & Bazooka  ? x x x  ??
Released 1992 1994 2002 1999? 1993/94? 1994 1994 1995
Wall Resolution 64x64 64x64?? 64x64 64x64?? 32x32 128x128 128x128 128x128
Object Resolution 64x64 64x64?? 64x64 64x64?? 64x64 128x128 128x128 128x128
Music x x x x x x x
Directional/3D Enemies/8 views x x x x
New Graphics  ?  ? some also includes some Doom weapons x x
Score/Level/Lives x x x x x x x
  • Wolfenstein 3D for the SNES.
  • Wolfenstein 3D for the Atari Jaguar.
  • Wolfenstein 3D for the Game Boy Advance.

I'll make better screenshots in the future... e.g. of special weapons, rats, etc. Zephyr103 10:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The Jaguar shot taken in an emulator (Project Tempest, is it? It's the only Jaguar emulator I know of that can emulate Wolf 3D mostly properly) is not at the correct aspect ratio due to a known bug in the program. However, I'm not exactly positive of what is not being rendered correctly. Obviously the image is far too narrow than it should be, but I'm not sure if part of the screen is simply being covered by a black bar (Meaning only about 80% of the screen is visible), or if the image needs to be stretched horizontally. MobyGames and this place have screenshots of the game running on normal hardware showing how the game should look, but I can't quite pinpoint the exact difference between how the emulator renders the game and how the Jaguar actually displays it. (If the image needs to be stretched horizontally, then it's a simple matter of editing your existing picture. If not, then the emulator is actually blocking part of the visible screen.) MarphyBlack 09:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Enemy quotes

The reason I removed the quotes is that they are not encyclopedically necessary, and amount to little more than trivia at best and gamecruft at worst. Unless a good reason can be given besides the fact that they are distinctive traits of each character (an argument which could be made for the grunts and roars of monsters in thousands of games), I'll remove them again in a week.--Drat (Talk) 04:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Unlike the grunts and growls of monsters from other games, as you have mentioned, the alert and death cries of the enemies in Wolf 3D can in fact be transcribed in written form since they are speaking legible words. This alone would make including the enemies' quotes only practical in very few cases, and therefore not necessarily an argument which could be made for "thousands of games". Also relevant is the fact that since the enemies are speaking German (albeit in a slightly broken form), the translations of these lines are providing something relatively useful to the reader (and if verifiability is an issue, this information can be easily sourced from the Apogee FAQ or from the game's official hint manual).
Aside from all that, Wolf 3D is one of the first, if not the first, first person shooter to implement digitized voices. Unlike previous efforts in games of other genres, like say Sinistar for example, where digitized voices are only used mainly for gimmicky purposes, the digitized speech in Wolf 3D is central to the mechanics of the fps genre, where instant identification of enemies is absolutely essential to gameplay. The official hint manual stresses how important it is to recognize each enemy's distinctive alert cry. It might appear to be gamecrufty on the surface, but in reality, knowing what each enemy says is an extremely significant element to the game and definitely an aspect worthy enough to include here.
And aside from that aside, some of the quotes in Wolf 3D have become fairly well known. For example, these three sources: [2], [3], and [4] all instantly associate the quote "Mein leben!" with the game. If a simple cry of "Mein leben!" is apparently enough to elicit connotations of Wolf 3D, then I think that shows that these quotes are more than noteworthy enough for mention. MarphyBlack 07:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guard says?

In the Apogee faq and in the article he says "actung!" [5] Maybe he says that in the later versions (Mac, etc), but it sounds to me like "hertzouwa" (or something) You can listen to it here Maybe it's Hŏr zu! (Listen!) Zephyr103 10:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Wolfenstein-3d.jpg

Image:Wolfenstein-3d.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 11:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. - Sega381 13:04, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Trivia

why the triva was totally removed? :-(

Well, the History page says thus: (cur) (last) 18:50, 22 September 2007 MarphyBlack (Talk | contribs) (27,689 bytes) (→Trivia - Now that the geographical references are gone, changing heading to something more appropriate.) (undo)
P.S. Trivia -sections- are frowned upon by Wikipedia. Lots42 20:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
there was interstiing info about MP-40, Luger and so on :-( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.115.54.176 (talk) 03:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, I suggest digging it up via the history and creating a new section called 'Weaponry'. Lots42 10:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
It will be nice! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.193.233.66 (talk) 03:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
will you do that?

[edit] Boss Descriptions

Do we HONESTLY need the BOSS Descriptions section? Lots42 (talk) 12:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

No we don't, it's game guide material, and besides it was put in a section that had nothing to do. There are other conversations about this here, and it was decided that the bosses were gone. Someone re-added the info from some of the older versions of the article. There is no strong argument to put that section, and several against it. Sega381 (talk) 00:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)