Talk:Wolfeboro Pioneers

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Scouting Wiki Project Wolfeboro Pioneers is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Note: The phrase "Let the fires of friendship burn" is not a copyrighted or documented phrase. However, Pioneers and other camp-goers can attest to the fact that it is used by multiple individuals.

Contents

[edit] Failed AFD

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wolfeboro Pioneers. Johnleemk | Talk 11:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok the Local Council Website for Greater Yosemite council makes no reference to Camp Wolfsboro nor does the History page for Toloma Lodge make reference to Wolfboro Pioneers in its history. The leader guide for Camp John Mensinger makes no reference to Wolfboro Pioneers. It does make reference to Order of the Arrow.

Here are the relevant links:

http://www.bsa-gyc.org/index.php http://www.bsa-gyc.org/sections/Camping/mensinger http://www.bsa-gyc.org/sections/OrderoftheArrow

I hope with this information, this can prove this article is a hoax. None of the links can be verified on the main. I also know Scouting/Order of the Arrow people in this area of California that have no knowledge of this Group. Please give verifiable info or delete this page.

The relevant council is Mt Diablo-Silverado. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.103.126.194 (talk) 22:59, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tkopechief

I changed the text, because what you wrote in August was unencyclopedic garbage. You are welcome to discuss why you feel the need to editorialize on the talk page, here, not in the article. Chris 03:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I reverted back based on my knowledge of Mt. Diablo-Silverado Council and Ut-Selica Lodge. Unless you can post relevant links to information which disproves what I I have shown —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tkopechief (talk • contribs) 03:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Then write it in an encyclopedic manner, and until you can do so, leave it as it is. Chris 03:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

As an outsider it seems to me that both of you should calm down. Nearly two years ago this article was put up for deletion. There still are no references. The first, so-called reference link might lead somewhere eventually but there is nothing relevant on the page actually linked. The second does not exist. If no references can be found then this article should go back to AfD where quite rightly it will be deleted. Tolerance for no references is lower now that it was in late 2005.

Tkopechief, you must stop making edit comments on the page. Here on the talk page is the place for that. Your own knowledge is not sufficient. It violates WP:OR. You must have reliable sources if you maintain that this organization does not exist. Chris, if you believe this organization does exist, then you must also back this up with reliable sources. I suggest you both leave the article alone and bring reliable sources and arguments to this talk page. --Bduke 03:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Since I see that you have both done 3 reverts I have fully protected this article for now to encourage you to have a proper debate on this talk page. I will keep an eye on it and, as an admin, make any sensible edits you agree on up to the point when I think the protect can be removed. --Bduke 04:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Tkopechief All that you have said is reasonable, I have posted links to the relevant players in this, Mt. Diablo-Silverao Council, Camp Wolfeboro and Ut-Selica OA Lodge, I would welcome additional sources. I believe I do need a clearer understanding of encyclopedia as to the format of this article. I would welcome any guidance in this effort. I would welcome any evidence/sources that would clarify my understanding. Unfortunately the link that is provided is convenient as no information existed until now. This is unhelpful. Where are the local people in Concord, Ca or Pleasant Hill who can verify this information. Tkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the protection, Bduke. (unfortunately you protected it after bad copy was reinserted) I have now found two published sources, which in the Wikipedia world have far more weight than the spurious "based on my knowledge of Mt. Diablo-Silverado Council and Ut-Selica Lodge" claim. These links are:

and when the article is unprotected, (unless you can do it now) I will put them into the article, where I will continue to revert word-of-mouth hearsay editors. Chris 04:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving forward

First, let me say that I thought I was protecting the last version from Chris as both of you had made 3 reverts. I had not realized that Tkopechief had slipped in a 4th revert. That was seriously against policy, WP:3RR. Please learn and never do that again.

Let us see if we can progress. The second reference given above by Chris shows that the Wolfeboro Pioneers existed in 1996. The first reference states that they still exist (the copyright date is 2002 - 2007) and that it co-exists in the Council with the Order of the Arrow. The statement in the current version "In the 1930s, the Order of the Arrow absorbed many of the small Boy Scout honor societies that had thrived during Scouting's first two decades. This happened in 1944 in Silverado Council and 1952 in Mt. Diablo Council." does not therefore appear to be correct. Also it does not seem to be supported by the reference given in the current article in the light of the new evidence that the Wolfeboro Pioneers cover one camp and the OA covers three other camps in the Council. In the light of all this, Tkopechief, could you explain here in some detail why you think the Wolfeboro Pioneers no longer exist. It seems to be false that they ceased to exist in 1952 and it seems clear that they existed up at least the last few years. If they have ceased to exist, it has to be very recent from the sources now provided. If you have direct evidence, you should be able to talk to people whose connection with the camp goes back further than yours and who should also be able to point to sources. --Bduke 06:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Tkopechief I have supplied links to Mt Diablo-Silverdado Council http://www.bsa-mdsc.org/wolfeboro.php also http://www.bsa-mdsc.org/ and http://www.bsa-mdsc.org/OA.php, try also http://www.bsa-mdsc.org/contact.php. One can contact the council and I certainly would be willing to do so. They would have direct evidence. Mt. Diablo-Silverado Council today believes they have an OA lodge. It is up to someone else to prove me wrong.Tkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I have served as a professional Scouter for 24 years, as well as a volunteer Scouter for most of that time, all in the two neighboring councils, Mt. Diablo Silverado Council and San Francisco Bay Area Council. --Mokgamen 06:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Tkopechief and you are who??, I could contact Clint Takeshita who is a member of the National OA Committee who resides in this Section. I will state that even my own council has a pre-OA honor society, the Order of the Silver Marmot. I could copyright this name today but it would mean nothing, only Chief Seattle Council can control this name, not myself.Tkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Even though the Wolfboro Pioneers does not maintain webpages linked to the council, it is still an active honor society continuously functioning along side the Ut-In-Selica Lodge of the Order of the Arrow. Both organizations have active membership (the situation is similar to what currently occurs between OA and Mic-O-Say in Kansas City, and OA and Firecrafters in Indiana). --Mokgamen 06:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Tkopechief Can you provide proof, or is this just a sockpuppet. Yes, I would like the Order of the Silver Marmot to exist again at Camp Parsons but can you prove it.Tkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The article (before revision) describing Wolfeboro Pioneers is substantially correct. If sources are needed, one only needs to cite the printed documents that exist, because little will be found on the internet. --Mokgamen 06:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Tkopechief Then it should be deletedTkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Why do you say that. Non-internet sources are perfectly acceptable provided they are available and reliable. --Bduke 07:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Tkopechief This is meaningless, unless you know people in Pleasant Hill, CA or other towns in Mt. Diablo-Silverado CouncilTkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to clean up the flow of the discussion above so it is clearer who said what. --Bduke 07:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Your references, Tkopechief, are not very helpful. The first two do not mention the Order of the Arrow. The third does of course but does not mention Wolfeboro camp. It is not in dispute that the Order of the Arrow exists. The reference Chris gave shows it co-exists with the Wolfeboro Pioneers. It is not up to anyone to prove you wrong. It is up to you to source the information you have put into the article. In particular you have to demonstrate from sources that the Wolfboro Pioneers are extinct, when evidence seems to point to the fact that they still exist. The comments by Mokgamen also do not support your case. Please comment on the arguments I gave, the reference Chris gave and the new comments by Mokgamen. --Bduke 07:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for those comments, Mokgamen. As you have probably gathered I am trying mediate this dispute. Could you give some cites to the printed documents you mention? For now I am going to leave things as they are with the article protected for 24 hours. If there is no further evidence in that time, I will revert back to the version Chris has been fighting for and add the references we now have. the above got into a real mess while I was trying to add something too. I hope I have cleared it up sufficiently. --Bduke 07:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

If Charles Anthony Gibbon has knowledge of something that I do not have, Mokgamen that would be fine, however, I have only seen an effort to support someone who has a desire to promote their own agenda, I can not accept the assertion of someone who has no connection to Mt Diablo-Silverado Council. You must provide the proof, not I. Tkopechief 08:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, to provide relevant links for the date of 29OCt2007, unless we can assume that the council no longer exists: http://www.bsa-mdsc.org/OA.php, http://www.bsa-mdsc.org/index.html, http://www.bsa-mdsc.org/files/2007wolfeboroguide.pdf. Where in the leader guide for Camp Wolfebore does it say that there is another honor society?? Tkopechief 08:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Please help us. I think you are talking about the third link you give. That pdf file is a massive 2.6Mb. Could you let us know where in that document it talks about honor societies of any kind. I could not find it, but I could of course have missed it. Let us be quite clear. The Wolfeboro Pioneers existed in the past. You claim they no longer exist. Others have asserted that they still exist and Chris gave a current web site about them. We do not have to prove anything. If you want to keep the version of the article that you want, it is you who have to give a clear source that they no longer exist. Do they exist now or have they ceased to exist. That is is key question. When that is resolved, we can begin to think about what kind of article should exist, if any. --Bduke 09:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

Tkopechief and Kintetsubuffalo, I haven't had time to read the above chat yet, but I did look at the article history. Bduke, an admin and Scouting project mediator, made a good call here protecting the page (I am also an admin and ScoutingWikiProject coordinator). You're both lucky he didn't block you for violating WP:3RR. I'm asking him as our project mediator to continue assisting in this matter. I'll be available to help too. From what I know right now (true I have not had time to read the above chat yet) its seems the bottom line is does this organization still exist or not? That needs to be determined. More later. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Now I've read the above posts. Bduke is doing an excellent job of handling this and as a non-American, he's totally impartial. I suggest everyone continue down the path to resolution. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:49, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

As User:Rlevse so aptly puts it, "the bottom line is does this organization still exist or not?". We have two versions:-

  1. One version, the one we have up right now and favored by User:Tkopechief, states that the Wolfeboro Pioneers no longer exist and the Order of the Arrow absorbed it. Dates of 1952 and 1954 are suggested for this absorption. The evidence offered is that documents published by the Council do not mention the Wolfeboro Pioneers.
  2. The alternative version favored by User:Kintetsubuffalo states that the Wolfeboro Pioneers still exist, have not been taken over by the Order of the Arrow and co-exist in the Council with the Order of the Arrow. The evidence for this rests on two sources. This from the Scouts-L list asserts clearly that it existed in 1996. This talks directly about the Wolfeboro Pioneers and is more recent according to the copyright dates of 1997 - 2007. This source suggests that the Wolfeboro Pioneers are at the Wolfeboro camp while the Order of the Arrow is at the other three camps in the Council. Thus it suggests that the Wolfeboro Pioneers co-exist with the Order of the Arrow. The continued existence of the Wolfeboro Pioneers co-existing with the Order of the Arrow is also personally attested to by User:Mokgamen, a professional Scouter for 24 years in neigboring Councils. While this personal evidence is obviously original research and can not be used as a source for the article, I nevertheless feel bound to give considerable weight to his information in resolving the key question.

What can we get from this evidence? It seems clear to me that if the Wolfeboro Pioneers do no longer exist, they ceased to exist quite recently. The dates in the 1950s are clearly wrong. Evidence for the existence of the Order of the Arrow in the Council tells us nothing as we have evidence that they have co-existed with the Wolfeboro Pioneers. Articles on the Order of the Arrow might well choose to not mention the Wolfeboro Pioneers. The Guide for the Wolfeboro Camp is very long and does not seem to mention the Wolfeboro Pioneers or the Order of the Arrow.

The article is about the Wolfeboro Pioneers, not the the Wolfeboro Camp or the Order of the Arrow in this Council. This small Honor Society in Scouting is notable whether it still exists or has recently seased to exist. We have no evidence that it has ceased to exist, I therefore intend to revert the article back to the version that asserts that it does exist. I will keep it protected to allow further evidence to be presented. If evidence can be found that it has ceased to exist, then that can be added to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bduke (talk • contribs) 06:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I hit save rather than preview in error, so it has been signed by a bot. I have corrected some small points. In reverting back to the other version, I will of course clean up the article and add the references. If you disagree with my action, please seriously address the points I make above. --Bduke 06:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I have completed that edit, but I left on the tag that the article is disputed for now. If you have minor edits, let me know. As I suggest above, if you still dispute this version give some arguments and sources here. --Bduke 07:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am pleased with the copy Bduke has written, and I want to thank you, as well as Rlevse and Mokgamen for your reasonable tone. I should have got an admin long before I got to 3RR, you know how it is, I had been trying all day to clean it up because, even if it doesn't exist any longer, it is a piece of early BSA history to be preserved, and it kept being reverted to the unencyclopedic version, and I got hot, to my discredit. I stayed out of the fuss for the last 48 hours, to step back and let my case speak for itself, on its own merit. This talk page is now three times the size of the article itself, and I am pleased with the direction of the article and of the research done in that time. We don't need another AfD bid, which would likely happen ceteris paribus. It still needs work, and I would favor unlocking the article to see what happens. If not, I would only suggest that the subsection name ==The Duties of the Wolfeboro Pioneers== is cumbersome and would look better as simply ==Duties==. People reading the article will already know whose duties these are, based on the topic. Again, thanks, and my vote is to keep on present course and add new info as found, without unsourced reversions. Chris 08:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
OK. I am going to unprotect the page. I would however urge all editors to not make major edits to htis page without first seeking consensus on this talk page. Let us have no more revert wars. --Bduke 08:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The Wolfeboro Pioneers existed in 1992, my first year as a Scout there (Troop 888, Danville, CA). They existed in 1995 when I was inducted. Having spent a combined 31 weeks at Camp Wolfeboro as a Scout, adult leader, full time staff member and volunteer staff I cannot imagine how anyone who has been there during this time could possibly question their continued existence. This information is current as of Saturday, July 14th 2007 when I completed a week’s vacation volunteering as the camp’s medic (and observed the induction of a fresh batch of Pioneers).

In addition, the camp’s annual Webelos Weekend event also hosts a reunion of the Wolfe Pack: some very old gentlemen who were inducted decades ago. While I believe he may be deceased now, there was at least one member of the inaugural 1929 Pioneer class present in recent years. I find it highly unlikely that our group “died out” for any length of time between then and now.

Please excuse the Wolfeboro Pioneer’s lack of web presence. In my observations, its stalwart members are more interested in maintaining a campsite than a website.

The Order of the Arrow assists the staff with annual put-up and take-down of the camp, but it is the Wolfeboro Pioneers that preserve the honor, history and tradition of the camp (which is rich and life affirming). I have been told by members of the OA that their organization resents the Pioneer’s existence as “infringing” on the OA’s “territory” with regards to maintaining summer camps. I pray with wary optimism that such a proud organization (of which I am also a member) is not truly so petty.

I am not sure why some people have so viciously attacked a group that does so much good. In anticipation of their rebukes, and their possible skepticism toward an Eagle Scout’s cite-less comments, I would remind them only that a Scout is honest. 67.188.109.143 (talk) 07:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)Evan

Maybe you have no clue? When the staff application asks what is your OA membership but not Wolfeboro Pioneer Membership? One can go to the links for Mt Diablo-Silverado Council and find links to the 3 progam areas of the BSA, also a link to the local OA lodge but no reference to Wolfeboro Pioneers. I am from Seattle, WA which until 1954 had a progam similar to Wolfeboro Pioneers. I can find some old Scouters who remember this program. In the 1980's an attempt was made to revive it. Which is OK although it faded away because the BSA program includes OA, not some local camp honoray. The Leader Guide for Camp Wolfeboro is a PDF file. I can read that the leader guide was written by a member of the local OA lodge. If anyone has a suggestion as to how to make that an "official" part of the documentation I am open to how to make this happen. My believe is Wolfeboro Pioneers is no longer in existance in Mt Diablo Silverado Council as Order of the Silver Marmot is in Chief Seattle Council. Only a few with wishfull thinking may desire otherwise. Tkopechief 11:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is about the Wolfeboro Pioneers, not the Order of the Arrow. If they have ceased to exist, then that should be in the article, but it has to be sourced. First hand knowledge, which Tkopechief is using is not acceptable, even if it had not been disputed by other first hand knowledge which it has. From outside the US, I know nothing of this camp or of either organization. However, it looks like a turf war to me between the W P and the O of A. If you have a reliable source that shows the Wolfeboro Pioneers no longer exist, then bring it here. Remember, as Chris reminds you below, to be civil and assume good faith from other editors. --Bduke 22:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] incivility by tkopechief

tkopechief-everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, we remind you not to attack other editors, as you did above. Comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Any more such outbursts and I will seek for you to be censured for incivility. Chris 11:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, instead of attacking, provide actual relevant links or refs from individuals living within the area of Pleasant Hill, Napa, Vallejo and the many smaller communties north of San Franciso, CA. I have been tempted to call the council office for Mt-Diablo Silverdo Council. If not doing so is a personal attack then I surrender, I will gladly call and get what info is needed to complete this entry.Tkopechief (talk) 07:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Please remember that we do not use original research on Wikipedia. We use independent sources. If the council office can lead you to individual sources that it fine, but you telling us what they told you is not fine. I really would like this disagreement to be resolved with reliable independent sources. --Bduke (talk) 10:09, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I really believe you have no concept on how a local BSA Council operates, a local BSA council has a 3 tier level of operation, the "CEO" who is the Council Secretary, chosen by the Executive Board, (30 - 60 volunteers {not paid}), The Council Commissioner who is the volunteer support of any "paid staff" and the Council President, who is the "chairman" of the Executive Board.

If I get any member of the professional (paid) staff to provide information plus any volunteer, are you telling me that they are lying? ````—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tkopechief (talk • contribs)

For the record, I am calling you a liar for claiming to be a Scout-your entire edit history violates helpful, friendly, courteous and kind. Your smug arrogance has no place on the Wikipedia-you need to find another forum in which to spout off, not here attacking longtime established reputable and sourced users. Chris (talk) 08:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Tkopechief, I am not saying they are lying or you are lying. I am saying that you are doing original research, which indeed can be accurate, but it is not allowed under the policies of Wikipedia. That is just the way it is. Please read the policies. I did not write them. Your research has to be supported by sources which others can access. --Bduke (talk) 08:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Based on what? I provided information on how a any local council operates, do you have any evidence to prove I have lied? Is the the fact of how the National Council of the BSA or any local council a threat to you? I have extensive knowledge and background of how the paid professionals and volunteers in the Boy Scouts of America should relate to each other and whether a call the local Boy Scout Office should be important, or respected. If a call to a local BSA office is a threat to you, then I am sorry, Wikipedia can be what ever you believe, reality, may be something else. ````—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tkopechief (talk • contribs)

Look, I did not say you have lied. Your background and knowledge is not the issue. Nothing of this is a threat to me. You can call the local office. What you can not do is put what they tell you on Wikipedia. Encyclopedias, including wikipedia, work on retelling what other sources say. By sources we mean reliable written sources that anyone in principle can access. What you are suggesting is original research and that can not be used even if it is true, unless it is written in a reliable source. The local office might point you to a reliable source. I know not all articles have good sources, but that is not a big issue until the point has been challenged. This article because of the challenge and disagreement has to be properly sourced. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines. Please read them. --Bduke (talk) 11:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but this means there is over 300 hundred interpretations of the BSA program, I am not the interpreter, do we accept the official Interpretation of Scouting in country X, (there are probably over 100 ore more) ,the organization may vary. I can accept the variation from Canada to Germany to Uk, But variation within an official Scouting group, there must be a limit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tkopechief (talk • contribs)

This is completely unclear to me. Let me recap. This article is about the Wolfeboro Pioneers. We have sources that say they existed. The article uses that source. You are, I think, trying to say they have ceased to exist. When did this occur? Find a reliable source, then you can add that material. It is that simple. --Bduke (talk) 11:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hoooly cow...

Reading this makes me ashamed to be a past member of Scouting and past treasurer and historian of the Wolfeboro Pioneers. Shame on all of you.

206.210.161.13 00:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)Former Wolfeboro Pioneers Historian and Treasurer206.210.161.13 00:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Then step up, register and sign in as a user, and address what specifically your grievances are. Venting your spleen does no one any good. Chris 05:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Do the Wolfeboro Pioneers still exist?

Reading through the above discussions is a bit painful, but it appears to be whether or not the Wolfeboro Pioneers still exist, so lets look at this first:

  • Absence of evidence does not mean the group does not exist; by comparison, there are any number of districts without websites and little mention on the council site. There three councils without a website.
  • One troop states they inducted two Scouts in 2005. [1]
  • There is a Wolfeboro Pioneers group on Myspace that was last updated in 2006.[2] It does discuss a 2006 reunion.
  • There are enough Google hits that persuade me that Wolfeboro Pioneers existed, and has had a very recent presence.[3]

Regardless of all that, the Wolfeboro Pioneers have existed for quite some time and have had a impact on a number of Scouts. Even if the group had folded over the last year, none of that would change. Interested editors need to focus on improving the article based on the information at hand. If and when information on their status is found, then the article should be updated. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Well said, Ed. I think the myspace link could be added to show existence at least to 2006. --Bduke (talk) 20:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Who cares. There is no verifiable evidence from Mt Diablo-Silverdo Council That this organization exists. It is up to the original author to prove existence, not any challenger. If I write some article on the existance of some program in a local BSA council, does that give me exclusive authority to control who has the knowledge of what is correct on the local honor whatever that exists in that BSA council. What is the problem here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.41.38.164 (talk) 09:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Given that yours is an anonymous IP, and this is your only edit, you'll understand that we totally ignore your false claim. Chris (クリス) (talk) 20:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Tkopechief (talk) 06:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)Well, as long as we acept the conclusion of some obscure manga lover from where ever that wikipedia is locked in thrall of whoever writes the first article, and that obscure local honor society in council X in 1930 still exists. Of all the 300 plus Boy Scouts of America Council Councils existing today, only 2 have no evidence of any honor society not OA and I supposed to provide evidence?? You are mistaken, provide evidence from the 300+ that have OA and then you provide the exceptions. It is up to you to provide the non OA BSA Councils, not myself. The "Wiki" can ask for whatever proof, however, unless, we ask for of all 300 plus BSA councils, why should I or anyone else should be asked to be able to provide it for one.

[edit] Move on!

I was feeling nostalgic tonight and wanted to look up Wolfeboro. A camp that I attended as a kid and had many great memories of. One of them was getting elected into the Wolfeboro Pioneers. I went there many times and Can't remember what year I was elected in but it was in the mid 80's. The ceremony described was how I remembered it and it was nice to be reminded of it. What is the big deal with finding proof online, I understand the importance of authenticity but you have several members in this chat verifying it. I didn't bother wasting my time reading this entire rant but can't someone pick up a phone. This is a ridiculous argument and this page should be left alone for those of us who were elected into the group and like to look back on these great memories. Leave it open to whether or not it still exists and if it does someone can add to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrawnw (talk • contribs) 09:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

As a Current Member of the Wolfboro Pioneers I can tell you that the program still exists and is still active. I can provide a reliable source of this information as the Finance Chairman of the Silvergate District I qualify as a Council Representative and can say that indeed the Pioneers serve to protect the history and facility of Camp Wolfboro operated by the Mt. Diablo Silverado Council. 76.103.187.6 (talk) 19:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC) EF

Great! Please register as a user on Wikipedia, find some current document that we can use as a source and put this non-issue it rest. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

how about http://groups.myspace.com/wolfeboropioneers http://usscouts.org/honorsociety/wolfeboro.asp

See we do exist.EF Pookiebear-t77 (talk) 03:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] My son receives his Pioneer this year

My son has attended Wolfeboro for 4 years straight, but per guidelines you must be 1st class for 2 consecutive times to be considered. His best friend received his Pioneer last year and he will be getting his this year. What could I have him bring home for proof? Also, my brother-n-law - who is 55 years old, will be going back with my son because HE is a pioneer and still has his scarf, etc. I was just searching for dates to enroll and came across this sillyness. You can't see me, but i exist. And will happily try and get any documentation you need to settle this. Let me know what vaidates proof. Lisa K —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.69.117.22 (talk) 23:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I think most of us are quite clear that it exists. However, if you have an independent source that talks about its existence, please add it to the article or ask me to do so. It does not have to be available on the internet, but it does of course have to be available somewhere public. --Bduke (talk) 00:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh Wow, you assert that it exists, based on what? The Council website does not mention it, the camp website, does not mention it. Somewhere in the literature for the council Wolfeboro Pioneers is not mentioned. The proof is on those who assert this organization exists. Where is any information that wolfboro pioneers exists? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.41.62.208 (talk) 01:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Found another sockpuppet! We seem to keep collecting these! This one also vandalized the Tribe of Mic-O-Say‎ article. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 01:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)