Talk:Wisconsin/Archive

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Archive of Talk page for "Wisconsin" article.

Contents

The farm

STOP SAYING THE FARM IS TYPICAL.

Sure, there are several, but the way i just cahnged it (to say its one area) is acceptable, and 99% of wisconsin doesnt look like that. And no, we arn't stuck in the 70s, as some shows may have you think.\

True that. Most of the Wisconsin population are in the cities. Many farms are giant comercial-grade, while there are still a lot that are family-owned. Sean WI 04:59, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Major" and "Minor" cities

I have no idea what the standards for inclusion in these categories might be. Some of the entries, like the one for Stockholm, seem like jokes to me. I don't know whether there are definitions of "major" and "minor" cities, but personally, I don't think a city with a population less than 100,000 qualifies as "major."

I decided to put in the populations and let people judge for themselves. Dpbsmith 02:25, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Wisconsin Glaciation

The recent disambiguation link is a good idea, but the linked page makes no reference to the Wisconsin glaciation. This is quite strange and should be fixed. Chris Dolan 18:05, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Added Some Content

I added some content regarding cities in Wisconsin as well as adding the picture of the Milwaukee Art museum to emphasize that Wisconsin does have cities, it’s surprising but people really seem to think Wisconsin is some kind of urban less expanse of tress and farms. I also added some info about wisconsin's products and how California now produces more milk. If you spot a problem please correct it in terms of facts or formatting. Cheers. --Ic0n0 23:31, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please, let's tone down the boosterism...

...it's getting out of hand.

"In addition to vast rural areas Wisconsin is home to several large cities, including Milwaukee and Madison. These large cities add a dynamic urban edge to the state’s otherwise rural setting which is often overlooked by those passing through the state. Both Madison and Milwaukee boast world-class universities and night life."

Now, Milwaukee is by most standards a large city, not humongous but bigger than, say, Boston. (And the Milwaukee Journal is a better paper than the Boston Globe). It's one of the twenty biggest cities in the U. S. But Madison a "large city?" Population 200,000? I don't think so.

Similarly, UW-Madison could be called a "world-class university," whatever that means. But UWM? It's a perfectly respectable university, but it's hardly a public Ivy.

And what do you mean by "world-class universities," plural? I'm only aware of only one university, singular, in Madison. There might be more than one university in Milwaukee--is Marquette actually in Milwaukee? But "world-class" is stretching it.

And that "dynamic urban edge" guff really should go. Wikipedia is not a tourist brochure. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, i can see where your problem with it lies and i will tone it down. It's just that the picture of the farm as "Typical wisconsin" is pretty anoying i just overcompinsated and i will fix it. --Ic0n0 06:27, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I cut that last paragraph i added, it doesn't really add anything. I would like to be to emphasize that Wisconsin has many medium sized cities in addition in Milwaukee and Madison but coming up with a way to do that which avoids sounding like a tourist brochure is going to be more difficult.--Ic0n0 06:41, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

  • Thanks! There must be a way to make the point you want to make without sounding boosterish... I'll think about it myself. Wisconsin certainly isn't the only state that consists of a small number of big cities, many small cities and towns, with large active agricultural land in between. Actually, California really isn't all that different, yet nobody thinks of California is being solely a "farm state" or would use a picture of a farm as "typical" of California... But you know, WIsconsin has sort of brought it on itself by using the slogan "America's Dairyland." Dpbsmith (talk) 10:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)


    • Well the idea I am trying to convey is that Wisconsin has a lot of medium sized cities, those between 50,000 and 150,000. I mean I can think of a ton, Eau Claire, La Crosse, Wausau, Green bay, Appleton, Oshkosh, Sheboygan, Janesville, Kenosha, and Racine are all cities that stand on their own, expect maybe Racine and Kenosha which are really dual suburbs of Milwaukee and Chicago. But the point is that is there are more independent “anchor” cities of significant size then most of the surrounding states have including Illinois if we don’t consider Chicagoland.
      • I agree. I don't really know how to compare it with other states, but "a lot of medium-sized cities" is the characteristic pattern.
    • But your right, those of us in Wisconsin have to a large extent placed this rural dairy farm image on ourselves with the constant emphasis on milk and cheese. I am from Milwaukee and as a result am actually quite bitter at the image of Wisconsin that is generally presented, hence my overcompensation earlier. There is almost a sort of downstate and upstate thing going on in Wisconsin like in New York State, a lot of us in the Milwaukee area find we have very little in common with the rest of the state. It’s a bit of a tangent but for example I have never seen a cow closer then 30 feet or milked one as I am sure most Wisconsinites haven’t. I guess unlike some Wisconsinites I don’t feel pride in the whole rural farm description they seem to relish. Anyway, when I figure out a good way to write more content without the unnecessary POV I will do so. --Ic0n0 11:56, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • Maybe something like this:
Wisconsin's self-promotion as "America's Dairyland" sometimes leads to a mistaken impression that it is an exclusively rural state. In fact Wisconsin contains cities and towns of all sizes. Milwaukee is a city slightly larger than Boston and part of the "Chicagoland" megalopolis on the edge of Lake Michigan. Madison's triple identity as state capital, university town, and working city give it a cultural richness unusual in a city its size. Medium-sized cities dot the state and anchor a network of working farms surrounding them.
Brewers pasted a "beer" label on Milwaukee, which probably doesn't help its reputation.
The article doesn't currently say anything about what I think is fairly extensive network of Amish communities in Wisconsin.
By the way, the list of cities could use some attention. Some time ago there was a silly list of "major cities" and people kept adding rather small towns to it, I guess either as pranks or because they wanted their home town on the list. I sort of stabilized things by stating the actual population of each town listed, and listing every city over 50,000 under the neutral title "cities with populations over 50,000." But the "other cities and towns" list could use some judicious pruning. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:29, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have added your suggestion Dpbsmith with a really minor tweak, but you can see for yourself. I think it looks pretty good, thoughts? --Ic0n0 01:46, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Looks fine to me. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:46, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cheeseheads

I think perhaps the cheese head stuff belongs more in a cultural area of the article rather then in the first paragraph. Just a thought. --Ic0n0 03:19, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. Until someone puts it there, I'm going to delete it. It's irrelevant to this article. The "cheesehead" thing is less than 10 years old, and almost exclusively a Green Bay Packer fan innovation. It has far less to do with Wisconsin culture than with Green Bay sportsfannery, and should be included there, with perhaps a passing reference made in a "Wisconsin Culture" article. TShilo12 04:17, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"Cheeseheads" is definitely more than 10 years old. I'm not sure how far back it goes, but I lived in the Chicago area more than ten years ago and "cheesehead" was often tossed about jocularly by area radio hosts. That and phrases like "behind the cheddar curtain" have been around for longer than ten years and used to make jokingly derogatory references to all the neighbors to the north, not only to Green Bay residents. Although I agree that it probably should not be in the intro section and may be more appropriate in the culture section. older≠wiser 13:13, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
'Cheesehead' definitely existed by the late 1980s (I used ther term myself in high school) - and it wasn't just relegated to non-Wisconsinites' usage, either. Heck, Cheesehead indicates the term was in use in Wisconsin by 1987. --moof 05:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
"Cheeseheads" probably existed since late 1980s in the Green Bay Packer gift store. Some of the hardcore Packer fans wear them, but the mainstream won't. The Cheesehead Homepage proves that they've been selling hats for over 15 yrs.
I get the distinct impression that most of the "cultural" tidbits in the article, indeed throughout the article's history, are a result of assertions made by out-of-staters based on uninformed idle speculation resulting from various stereotypes that circulate around the country about what goes on in Wisconsin. (Hey, at least we're not Arkansas, eh?! :-p) Anyways...I commented about the same myopia several months ago, when the assertion was made in the article that a large part of Wisconsin culture revolves around rivalry with Illinois. Down a few sections, you'll find others have registered similar complaints... Tomertalk 09:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Location of Pettit Ice Center? West Allis or Milwaukee?

The Pettit Ice Center is strongly associated with West Allis, but I'm not quite sure on pinning down its legal location.

Its address is variously given as Pettit Ice Center, 500 S. 84th St., West Allis e.g. here. Try a Google search on "500 S. 84th St" "West Allis" to see what I mean. Yet [the official website] uses the same street address but puts itself in Milwaukee: "National Ice Center, 500 South 84th Street, Milwaukee, WI 53214... Location I-94 & 84th Street."

There's no particular mystery about the location, which is on the Wisconsin State Fair Park which obviously is on or close to the border between West Allis and Milwaukee. Obviously the park complex as a whole spans the border and has parts in West Allis and parts in Milwaukee. The Wisconsin State Fair Park gives its address as: "640 South 84th Street, West Allis, Wis. 53214." (But the West Allis West Milwaukee C of C website gives the address of the State Fair Park as "8100 W. Greenfield Ave. West Allis, WI 53214"

I queried The Pettit and receive this reply: From: rmulterer@thepettit.com Date: February 11, 2005 10:06:33 PM EST

Since we are adjacent to I-94, our mailing address is Milwaukee. So we are considered to be in Milwaukee, but West Allis is mere yards away.

Obviously this has something to do with where the office is, where the actual rink is, where the state fairgrounds are, where the rink used to be, etc. etc. This would all be a matter of West Allis pride rather than geography. For now I'm leaving it as being "in" West Allis but maybe at some point the language should be wordsmithed. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)


The borders of the city of Milwaukee are really odd in places, some parts of the city on the far south side are only contiguous with the rest of the city by like 3-4 yards along a road. It’s just weird. But as far as I am aware the ice rink is in fact in the city of Milwaukee despite the stair fair property being mostly in west allies, but it’s commonly considered west allis. Pettit Center LocationThe dark line is the border. Milwaukee Borders with Ice Center As you can see milwaukee has some strange borders. You can look a really cool gis here Map Milwaukee --Ic0n0 22:21, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

  • A lot of businesses in the Milwaukee suburbs list their addresses as "Milwaukee" and then use their suburban zip code (this is the case with nearly every business in Greenfield). So it would make sense that the Pettit is actually in West Allis in spite of its address.
    • That’s reasonable, but in the case of the Pettit Center, it really is in Milwaukee. The GIS map Ic0n0 cited clearly shows the building within the Milwaukee city limits. The border between Milwaukee and West Allis in that region is West Schlinger Avenue, and the Pettit Center is a block north of that street. It’s not relevant to this article anymore since the section was reworked over four months ago, but this does mean the intro to the Pettit National Ice Center article needs editing. --Rob Kennedy 07:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Major Businesses

Under "Misc Information" should we have a link to a list of major businesses that are headquarted in Wisconsin? Sean WI 05:06, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Etymology

[1] indicates that the origin of the name is French Ouisconsin which comes from the Ojibwe Miskasin, which itself would be a haplologied form of Miskasinsin, literally "red-stone-area". The name was originally applied to the river, and referred to, I would imagine, red stones in the area. I'm going to wait to change the claim in the article to get other people's input. --Whimemsz 15:08, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

  • Whimemsz, I think pretty much anything that can be backed up with reliable source material not only can, but ought to be included precisely because any and every other reference that speaks to the subject of the origin of the name, specifically mentions that nobody knows the etymology for certain. Any discussion in this article should, regardless of how many different sources are brought into the discussion, make this clear. Tomer TALK 03:41, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
  • Umm, I'm from Wisconsin and I do speak Ojibwemowin and the word I learned was not Miskasinsin... anyway "red-stone-area" would be miskwasiniing in Ojibwe. The word I learned was wiishkoonsing to mean "area of small wiishk". The term wiishkoons(-an) is applied to muskrat lodges... you know, those tiny little domed things you find in shallow streams and wetlands? Beaver lodges are called wiishk(-oon), unless they're small, in which they too would be called wiishkoons(-an). In addition, the Minnesota Ojibwe calls Wisconsin wazhashkoonsing, meaning "little-muskrat area". CJLippert 00:46, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
The only problem is that, according to the Wisconsin Historical Society site, the first mention by a European of the name (Father Jacques Marquette in 1673) called it "Meskousing," and other explorers called it similar things. It wasn't until 1682 that Rene Robert Cavelier, Sieur de LaSalle called it "Ouisconsing" (though he said it was also called "Misconsing"). It may be that the original, M-initial name came from a different language, and then explorers began to confuse that and wiishkoonsing because of their similar sounds, or something....I don't know... --Whimemsz 17:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. It may be that the original M-initial name came from a different language. Since the name "fits" a typical Algonquian naming structure and thinking about what Algonquian Tribes were along the Wisconsin River who had contact with Fr. Marquette, I'm guessing either the Sac or the Mascoutins (the now extinct Tribe closely related to the Sac-Fox and the Kickapoo) as the source of the M-initial name. CJLippert 00:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh, as another note, wiishkoonsing to mean "Wisconsin", though a real Ojibwe word, is a relatively recent adoption (since 1836). Another example of such a word is minisooding to mean "Minnesota". The plant minisood(-oog) is the balm of Gilead, so while Wisconsin is called at the muskrat-lodge, Minnesota is called "at the balm-of-Gilead". State of Minnesota, though, records its name coming from the Dakota mni-sa-te "[land of] clear sky-blue waters". CJLippert 00:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Alleged "Wisconsin-Illinois rivalry"

I agree with User:Mtz206's removal of a statement and image inserted by User:Illinoisian. These should not be reinserted without discussion and consensus being reached here. The statement was:

A large part of the culture of Wisconsin includes a rivalry with Illinois, producing many friendly and not so friendly jabs between the two states.

The image was Image:Iwantyou_wisc.jpg, a picture of the famous "I Want You" poster with Uncle Sam clumsily replaced by Lincoln and the caption "I Want You to help fight Soviet Wisconsin." (An odd characterization of Joseph McCarthy's state).

During the ten years I lived in Wisconsin I never noticed any reference whatsoever to any such rivalry. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:24, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Considering the Illinois term "Cheese Heads" and the Wisconsin term "FIB" (F***ing Illinois B******s) I have to disagree with the "vetern Wisconsonites" here and say that yes, such a rivalry does indeed exist. Agriculture 01:16, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

The "rivalry" is so trivial as to call into serious question its encyclopædicity. Having lived in Eau Claire for the vast majority of my life (24 of my 33 years), I can attest to the fact that some Illinoisans derogatorily refer to Wisconsinites as "cheeseheads", although Wisconsinites have largely taken this jab in stride, whence those ridiculous foam cheese-head "hats" now so common a sight at Green Bay Packers games. That said, the "FIB" thing is rare, although it is found throughout the state--for the most part, however, it's not because of any "rivalry" between Wisconsin and Illinois, rather it's a result of the perception by many Wisconsinites that people from the Chicago area who come to Wisconsin to "use us" as a vacationland, are representative of some overall condescending attitude on the part of Illinoisans, presumably not just against Wisconsinites, but against the entire world. An older prejudice against Illinoisans (who, on an equally irrelevant note, it should be noted, are so "dumb" they can't pronounce "s" at the end of words—whence the widespread purposeful Wisconsin mispronunciation of "Illinois" as "All the noise") is that "they can't drive". When I was younger, the prejudice was that Illinoisans were "insane" because they drove 90mph on the freeways when the speed limit was 55mph. Nowadays, however, I can testify that Illinoisans are incredibly annoying, since they insist on driving at least 2mph below the posted speed limit. This is, actually, probably a result of the contemporaneous confluence of two recent historical trends: the fact that an apparently much more widespread earlier dislike of Illinoisans led many Wisconsin patrol officers to stop Illinoisans on sight if they were going so much as 1mph over the posted limit, and the fact that during the reign of Tommy Thompson, the Wisconsin State Patrol loosened up a lot, so Illinoisans, thinking they had gotten "wise" to the anti-Illinoisan attitude of the police, slowed way down, and Wisconsinites, finally freed in some small part from the 1984-style fear of the police for accidentally going more than 1mph under the posted limit, kind of clashed midstream, to the extent that nowadays, when you get to the front of a holdup in a "clot" of traffic, you find that it's caused by 2 Illinoisans, both afraid to pass each other at more than 1/4mph difference in speed. (I'm seriously not kidding...it's incredibly annoying. I have to say, in the past 18 years of driving, I've never once been passed (in Wisconsin) by a car with Illinois plates, although I can't begin to count the number of cars with Illinois plates I've passed, in a convoy of other cars getting around the roadblocks they create. Minnesota cars are almost as bad, but I have been passed by a number of Minnesota-plated cars in my driving career, so my real annoyance is reserved for Illinois-plated cars.) THAT SAID, while Joe McCarthy was certainly from Wisconsin (in fact, he was the Justice of the Peace who officiated at my paternal grandparents' wedding, when he was a judge in Winnebago County, Wisconsin, Wisconsin has a proud (and sometimes idiotically proud) tradition of not being able to be characterizable in the neat pigeonholes the media likes to try to put states and their electorates into. Wisconsin is at the center of the unusual distribution of rural democrats, who, despite the fact that I think they're utterly deluded, and can only imagine that their "democrat-ism" is inherited, are sufficiently powerful to keep the state just about evenly balanced between republicans and democrats, in-state as well as at the federal level (40 years ago, that would have been a good thing, but now it's not, IMHO). In light of that, I'm not at all surprised to see that someone would have clumsily put together an image characterizing Wisconsin as "Soviet"--although that characterization is somewhat humorous, in light of the fact that many center and right-of-center Wisconsinites (and Minnesotans) frequently refer to Minnesota as "The People's Democratic Republic of Minnesota". All of that said, however, User:Illinoisan's edit was rightly removed. While this curious interstate rivalry does exist on a minute scale (usually only on an individual level, except among workers in the tourism industry, who, in my experience generally despise Illinoisans), it's probably not worthy of mention, but even moreso, the assertion that "a large part of the culture of Wisconsin" is bound up in this supposèd "rivalry" is patent nonsense, <bias>likely a result of the fact that Illinoisans are so hopelessly ignorant and arrogant that they think that the fact that Wisconsinites notice the pathetic existence of Illinois is the highest cultural achievement of Wisconsin</bias>.  :-p Tomer TALK 09:09, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

Wow... I don't think I've ever seen a Wikipedian so hopelessly insecure with himself... amazing really. My point was simply the rivalry exists. I draw no conclusions about Wisconsin or Illinois from it. Both states are integral to the Union, and powerful forces in the modern day that rival many of the older states to the East. Whether or not it should be mentioned that they share a rivalry is ambigious, and I'm not debating that point. Only that such a rivalry exists, specifically in the Chicagoland region of Wisconsin. The fact that you my friend are quite a piece of work, however, is without debate pure and utter fact.
I would also note you prove the existance of this rivalry and may even help declare it noteworthy by your shear and utter lack of ability to control your hatred of Illinois and the people who reside in that state, resorting to frequent insults in your lengthy and needlessly hostile diatribe. Agriculture 09:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I apparently neglected to include what I assumed was a fairly obvious tag, namely <tongue position="firmly in cheek"> for that post. Any hatred for Illinois or its people is, I assure, you, read into what I wrote, not out of it. Tomer TALK 10:07, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
Ah. A rivalry exists "specifically in the Chicagoland region of Wisconsin." I didn't live in that area, so I wouldn't know about it. Our article on Chicagoland says that that includes only one county. So, are we just talking about Kenosha and the Lake Geneva tourist area? Dpbsmith (talk) 10:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
There is a rivalry, not only Kenosha as Chicagoland in a strict sense but also farther north to Milwaukee, and I would guess other border areas, although I wouldn't know. In football terms, at least, the rivalry extends throughout the state. Since natives of both states happily travel to the other for leisure, I would say the rivalry is friendly. That being said, given the other contributions of User:Illinoisian (including creating an article on "the Republic of Illinois", which was deleted), let's keep the edit out of the article. (P.S. People from Illinois drive like maniacs ;p) HollyAm 13:21, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
There is a rivalry but it rarely shows it face outside of a game of professional football or teasing at a local bar. Its a very similar feeling as what natives of Maine feel about those from Massachusetts, massholes, perceived wealth and arrogance. But it's not really anything beyond a feeling of jealousy expressed in mild teasing. So many people from Illinois have so much property almost strictly for leisure in the state that many people do feel jealous of the average income of the Chicagoan person in addition to a perceived arrogance on the part of wisconsinites regarding those from Illinois. It should also be noted that this rivalry doesn't really extend to people not from the greater Chicago region of Illinois. In reality this isn't worthy of an encyclopedia, it's just a regionalism with little meaning, it has no significant effect on the identity of a Wisconsinite or Illinoisan. --Ic0n0 01:57, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Whence my position that claiming that rivalry with Illinois constitutes a major part of Wisconsin culture is not only erroneous, but denegratory and just a bit insulting. That said, User:Illinoisian has long since become my favorite vandal... :-) Tomer TALK 09:30, September 9, 2005 (UTC)


I do live not far to the West of Milwaukee in Oconomowoc, and I can verify the rivalry does exist. Near the border, no more than 2 or 3 counties north, there is a sense of a rivalry, and the term FIB is prevalent. Here in Wisconsin, the rivalry is often fueled by the differences in cultures between this area of Wisconsin, which is known for it's "Gemutlikeit" and laid-back bar attitude, whereas people from Chigago are concieved as people always rushing around from here to there, never slowing down. Another source of this rivalry is how Illinois has placed toll-booths at every entrance into their state on the interstate system, charging many commuters from Wisconsin an ever-increasing amount of money to drive on there interstate system, which might I add is falling into disrepair. And no Wisconsinite can get away with liking the Bears. Heh. I can't speak for Illinois and why they don't like us. --72.128.76.97 17:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


I can personally attest to there being a Wisconsin-Illinois rivalry, or at least a Milwaukee-Chicago one. For one, the student body at Marquette is made up of mostly white kids from the Chicago suburbs, and the neighborhoods surrounding MU are predominantly Black and poor. The residents in this area constantly feel jaded by the students' condescending attitude about living in a "low class" neighborhood and the fact that they require so much police protection (the MU campus police drive down Wisconsin Ave every 5 minutes after midnight... it's ridiculous). Another is that the north side of Milwaukee has a decent number of Chicago transplants who love to talk bad on Milwaukee, yet don't seem to remember that they CHOSE to move to here and can't seem to shut up and move back. And then, of course, there's the Cubs fans who try to take over Miller Park whenever they play the Brewers. User:MuthaFnTruth

Where in the world...?

My parents learned a song while in outing club in college in upstate New York in the 1950s that names some places that they thought were in Wisconsin but I can't find any references to any of them. These would presumably be places that hikers and canoers would find of interest. Thought I'd ask here before going to the general help desk. In part, the lyrics are:

It's the far northland that's a-calling me away...
...By Lake Duncan and Clearwater to the Bearskin I will go...
...If you're thinkin' in your inner heart there's swagger in my step,
You've never been along the Border Trail.

Anyone have any clue where these places are? Elf | Talk 20:47, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not entirely certain, because those placenames are outside my ken...but there is a "Duncan Creek" in Chippewa Falls, which is dammed into a pond (hardly a "lake") at Irvine Park, before it flows into the Chippewa River, in downtown Chippewa Falls, approximately 8 miles upriver from downtown Eau Claire, which, in French, means "Clear Water". As for the "Border Trail", ein li musag... :-p Tomer TALK 09:24, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I found a couple of commercial canoeing/rafting outfits[2] in Minnesota (I guess they had the wrong state) that mention everything except "the border trail" but they do refer to "the boundary" a bunch, so I'm guessing that's related. Thanks anyway. Elf | Talk 20:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Could be that "the border trail" is the Rainy River, Pigeon River or one of the many other waterways up in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area. Tomer TALK 21:18, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Duncan, Clearwater, and Bearskin are all lakes in the eastern Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, north of the Gunflint Trail. And the "Border Trail" could refer to the waterway that defines the US-Canadian border, the Border Route hiking trail, or the Gunflint Trail itself, which are all in the same area up there. -- BlueCanoe 06:32, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

Info loss in large edit

A bit of information was lost in this edit...I'm not sure what parts of what was lost should be kept, nor where such parts should be put ("Economy" probably isn't the place, for example, for mention of Summerfest, nor for the amount of stem-cell research that goes on at UW)... Any ideas? Tomertalk 03:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)