Talk:Wir sind Helden

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where does Kamikazefliege fit into all of this?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.208.104.126 (talk • contribs).

It's an earlier solo CD by the band's lead singer, Judith Holofernes, and thus not really a Wir sind Helden CD, although some of the songs from it later also appeared on their CDs. --Fritz S. (Talk) 11:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The solo CD is available for free download from their website. Should that be mentioned somewhere in the article? Its probably the only mass-available sourcing for Judith's early workHaverberg 22:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Sure, add it. Sounds like a good idea to me. --Fritz S. (Talk) 10:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
After a lot of searching I found the download site at http://home.arcor.de/c-e-s-e/WsH_Downloads.html; however, there was no link to it from the official website, and the UK fan site which blurbed that it was a free, legal download was down for maintainance - I think this needs more verification before it goes to the wiki page.Haverberg 05:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure, you want to call them Neue Deutsche Welle? I mean, some songs may remind of NDW, but generally it's Rock, the so called German Rock. What Wir sind Helden started in 2004 was a new kind of music, rock tending to pop sung in German. The music is different from that at the time of the NDW. The only thing similar to it is its impact: German music has become more popular in Germany, as it did during the NDW.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.61.155 (talk • contribs) .

Judith Holofernes is cute!!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.169.171.130 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Real Names

Bdell555 has added their real names. Should this be in the article unsourced??? 82.3.18.24 21:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) says to use the most common name used in English. I would also think this could be a privacy issue - particularly for relatives of of the band members. I'm going to revert it just to be on the safe side.Haverberg 16:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Norma Jeane Mortenson is indicated immediately after Marilyn Monroe in that article, to take but one example of what is standard procedure in Wikipedia. See also Falco (musician), Cher, Sting, Prince (musician), Seal (musician), Madonna (entertainer) etc etcBdell555 06:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
This might be true for the bio of every single member, but not in the "band members" section. As musicians they are commonly known as Judith Holofernes, Pola Roy, Jean-Michel Tourette, and Mark Tavassol. Se also German and Italian Wikipedia. --Eyesglare 08:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I, and everyone else, are well aware of how they are commonly known, thank you. No one is contesting that, or for giving primary prominence to these stage names. At issue is whether stage names should be used EXCLUSIVELY and other Wiki articles make it clear that there is no mandate to exclude birth names. Last time I checked, encyclopedias where in the business of providing information, not trying to hide it. You need to demonstrate that there is a relevant distinction between individual bio articles and the band article, since you are the one making the claim. If there was some sort of policy reason for exclusion from the band article, how could that not apply to the bio article as well? Besides, the stage name and most common name for the lead singer for Aqua is Lene, yet you can see from the band article that she is identified as Lene Nystrøm. Even more similarly, does the Fanta4 article simply say Smudo (stage name and most common name) is a band member? No it doesn't, it says "Michael Bernd Schmidt alias Smudo". The need to note that stage names are being used by Wir sind Helden is even greater, because Smudo is clearly a stage name whereas some people might actually think Mr Roy's parents intended to name him after a camera!Bdell555 20:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The use of real names in existing wikipedia articles does not imply conformance to existing standards - this is a "cart before the horse" fallacy. You should additionally not cite "existing practice" in encyclopedias - Wikipedia's own rules supercede any individual perception of common practice. Also, the burden of proof rests on the person adding the information (as per policy cited below), and the policy I just checked makes no distinction between individual and group biographies.
Your inclusion of a performer's real name fails the following tests as described in WP:LIVING Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons:
- Biographies must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy
- Editors should include only material relevant to their notability
- When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed it is preferable to omit (In Germany they are public figures, but not so in most of the English-speaking countries, and this is the English Wikipedia).
- The presumption in favor of the privacy of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved persons without independent notability is correspondingly stronger
Further, it is still unsourced. (Be careful about your sourcing, Wikipedia has some extensive language on how source documents are qualified).
Also, Administrators should obtain consensus before undeleting material that has been deleted citing this policy. Therefore, I believe you will need a call for consensus before reversing my deletion.
Detailed quotes from WP:LIVING Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons:
"An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm." ... Biographies of living persons (BLP)s must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy."
"The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material."
"Rationale: Wikipedia is a top-ten website, which means that material we publish about living people can affect their lives and the lives of their families, colleagues, and friends. Biographical material must therefore be written with strict adherence to our content policies."
"People who are relatively unknown: Wikipedia also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, editors should exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability. Material from third-party primary sources should not be used unless it has first been published by a reliable secondary source. Primary source material published by the subject must be used with caution."
"Privacy of names: Caution should be applied when naming individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed (such as in certain court cases), it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When evaluating the inclusion or removal of names, their publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories."
"Editors should take particular care when considering whether inclusion of the names of private, living individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of the privacy of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved persons without independent notability is correspondingly stronger."
"Disputed deletions: Administrators should obtain consensus before undeleting material that has been deleted citing this policy, and wherever possible, disputed deletions should be discussed with the administrator who deleted the article."Haverberg 13:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


1) I am citing “existing practice” in order to ask you if you are going to be consistent and delete the real names from all those other biographies of musicians. This is called the "avoid hypocrisy" policy.
2) You now cite a policy that “makes no distinction” almost immediately after you insisted on making a distinction (between band and band member pages)!
3) The German articles give their real names, and, again, you had just insisted that what was in the German and Italian Wikipedia was relevant. Apparently having the "cart before the horse" is fine for you but not for me! Now you’ve contradicted yourself to say that the German Wikipedia is not relevant, on the grounds that “in Germany they are public figures”. First of all, they are obviously public figures in the English speaking world as well since they have a Wiki article about their band! Secondly, and most importantly, if their “privacy” was an issue, it would surely be in the area where they normally reside where they would wish to maintain their privacy (i.e. Germany). There is no comprehensible policy that would call for anonymity in other regions but not in your own region.
4) My call for consensus consists of the Wiki editors concerning with all the other bio articles I mentioned above. That’s a least a half a dozen who believe this sort of information should be included.
5) Wir sind Helden is not a "single event". Also, Wir sind Helden is the topic of this article and if the four individuals at issue here are "are not directly involved" in Wir sind Helden then who is? Nobody?Bdell555 21:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Could you all please resolve the issue here before editing the article again, and stop edit waring? --Fritz S. (Talk) 07:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


The single "Kaputt" was already released in November 2007. I'm not familiar with tables here, so it would be nice if someone could repair this. Held90 (talk) 18:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)