Talk:Winter service vehicle

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Featured article star Winter service vehicle is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 27, 2007, and in the Did you know? column on February 13, 2007.

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[edit] GA pass

Excellent article. Well-rounded, well-referenced, good prose and good use of images. Definitely meets the GA criteria. Fvasconcellos 16:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citric acid

"In places where salt is not used, citrus juice may be applied to the road instead". I can't find any citation for this, and this link, http://www.linkgrinder.com/Patents/Biobased_deicin_7169321.html, in fact claims that citric acid is a very poor de-icing agent. Laïka 22:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Well done!

I just wanted to say (a bit late, I know, but I'm v. busy these days) that this really is an excellant article - in particular, I don't believe an article has ever had a GA pass before apearing on DYK! Nice work! Blood Red Sandman Open Up Your Heart - Receive My EviLove 18:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] quetion

I need to ask somethin', what happens when you put salt on ice? What reactions happens when you put salt on ice? I mean does anything speshil thing happen or does the ice melt the same way it norm. does? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.128.93.128 (talk) 17:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

Hi! When the ice meets the salt, the salt triggers a process called "freezing-point depression"; basically, it means that the water can melt at a lower temperature. As a result, the salt means that the ice can be melt away, even if the temperature outside is colder than the normal freezing point of water. In future, you may want to ask questions at Wikipedia:Reference desk/science; you'll get an answer faster. Laïka 21:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] India Pakistan China

It can also be mentioned that these vehicles are used to man patrol the borders between India and China, and India and Pakistan. =Nichalp «Talk»= 12:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Groomer picture.

Smurrayinchester posted in my talk page... Winter Service Vehicle

Hi! I've commented out the addition of Image:BR180.JPG in Winter service vehicle for a number of reasons:

  1. There is already an image of a snow groomer in the article, which was taken in better lighting and higher resolution.
  2. As there are two images in one short section, the lower image is shunted into the section below; indeed, at high resolutions (1280 by 1024), it looks like the lower image is in fact part of the snow melter section.
  3. The snow groomer is covered in snow, which makes the unit hard to pick out.
  4. The contrast and lighting of the image is very poor, as all the light is diffused by the clouds (a condition known as whiteout.
  5. The image suffers from major motion blur and pixellation.
  6. The extra image doesn't add any extra information to the article.

I'm willing to discuss changes to the article, but as it is currently undergoing an WP:FAC here, it's best to keep it relatively stable. Laïka 15:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

White out to my mind is where Blowing snow makes it imposible to see anything, the picture was taken on avery overcast day. The picture does look like it was taken on a dull Northern Day.
I perfer this one on the topic as it at least shows that there is trailer like device behind the tractor, which is actually doing some of the work, the other picture just shows a tractor, of the two pictures it is the one which better indicates the equipment being discussed.
It would be nice if there was a picture available which showed the unit running on a sunny day and better explained the process.
I don't think there is a vote mechanism for this - perhaps the best way is to leave this here, and not on my page and other interested editors can either pick the one they like, or perhaps grab a better shot (any skiers in the southern hemisphere?) when Snow is arround. we finaly got all ours melted last week.cmacd 16:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Well heres the thing, the red groomer picture that is there right now is a rear end picuture and I had to look hard to actually see the grooming part vs. the tractor. The side view I think is better and it shows the blade. The groomer is the blue part, doesnt blue contrast against the snow? I guess the snow does kind of block it. Now I didnt take into account resolution. There is another picture of a snowcat, but it only has a blade and no groomer. Oh and the picture with the yellow one is definantly not in a white-out condition. Oh here is the other one: Image:Pisten bully winchcat (snowcat).jpg. KeepOnTruckin Complain to me | my work here 02:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not 100% happy with any of the photos, but none of those on both Commons and cc-licensed on Flickr seem to show snow groomers especially well. I think the current image is really a good balance between demonstrating the concept and looking at least halfway decent. Laïka 16:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nice work

I remember seeing this article on DYK and GA. I don't think I've ever seen any article evolve in such an ideal manner. --Wafulz 15:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US-centric

The following paragraph is an example of how this is US-centric:

With the popularisation of the motor car, it was found that ploughing alone was insufficient for removing all snow and ice from the roadway, leading to the development of gritting vehicles, which used sodium chloride to accelerate the melting of the snow.[6] Early attempts at gritting were resisted, as the salt used encouraged rusting, causing damage to the metal structures of bridges and the shoes of pedestrians. However, as the number of motoring accidents increased, the protests subsided and by 1925 many cities in the United States used salt and sand to improve clear the roads and increase road safety.[6] As environmental awareness increased through the 1960s and 1970s, gritting once again fell out of favour due to its environmental impact, leading to the development of alternative de-icing chemicals and more efficient spreading systems.[6]

Even ignoring the lack of historical info about anywhere else; this section is region-centric as gritting with rock salt is still the most common (and often only) road treatment in Ireland and the UK, whatever about it being rather nasty. The rock salt used throughout Ireland and the UK is mostly mined from a large salt mine under the area around Kilroot (nr Carrickfergus), Northern Ireland. [1] zoney ♣ talk 11:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The entire article is an example of how British-centric Wikipedia is, since it's all "spelt" in British English. "Snowplough", for example. 62.145.19.66 (talk) 13:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not about to change the article since it seems to be consistently done, but it did seem odd to me to have British spelling in this article. I'd bet serious coin that Canada and the US have a lot more of a snow removal problem than the UK. Zoney's point is well taken, though, as gritting is also still a major component of road clearing in Canada (and likely the US as well). Other de-icing systems are being "developed", but the solution on the ground is still mostly good old rock salt. Matt Deres (talk) 15:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks; I've clarified what was meant by the sentence (rock-salt gritting is still used, but it is now done using far more efficient systems than those used pre-environmentalism (such as only using salt on high-capacity routes, mixing more sand into the mixture - these are explained in the gritter section)). Wikipedia recommends using whatever dialect was used by the original author for international topics, which in my case was Brit-English. I'm afraid no sources that I'm aware of talk about the history of snow removal outside the US; the information is broadly general, and the United States was one of the earliest places to develop snow removal. Laïka 18:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, an anonymous user at 198.82.17.126 has just now "fixed" many British English spellings by changing them to American English. So now you folks can decide whether to let that stand, or regard it as a needless violation of WP:MoS. I don't want to revert the change on my own, given the above discussion. Wdfarmer (talk) 00:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to revert for now for the following reasons:
  1. WP:ENGVAR says "If an article has evolved using predominantly one variety, the whole article should conform to that variety".
  2. The change was incomplete (centimetre became centimeter while metre remained metre)
  3. Grammar remained British (full stops outside quotation marks)
  4. Change resulted in various concepts (the Large Goods Vehicle Licence in particular) to become misnamed (akin to changing references to the Labor Day to Labour Day).
  5. Change made by a single anonymous editor without consensus.
I'm happy to have a discussion, but not to have the change half-heartedly and incompletely applied to the article without any kind of community decision. Laïka 01:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Wdfarmer (talk) 07:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How is it called in English?

In Russia such type of winter service vehicles (see first two photos in the article) is widely used, but it isn't mentioned here. How are they called in English? (Russian term is лаповый снегопогрузчик - hands-type snow loader) Are they used anywhere outside of the former USSR?--77.73.111.211 (talk) 14:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

This term seems not to be widely used in american english; google returns 46 (forty six !) hits for the phrase "winter service vehicle", and many are to this article or derivatives of it, and many of the rest are to UK or european based webpages. Perhaps someone can weigh in with some citations for american english usage. Cinnamon colbert (talk) 16:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Snow Removal Vehicle seems to be the US equivalent, although strictly speaking, winter service vehicle covers a slightly wider range of vehicles than snow removal vehicles. Laïka 18:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
As a native of the usa, I don't think snow removal vehicle is idiomatic, at least in the northeast. Snowplow usually refers to either the plow blade itself, or to a truck (usually a dumptruck or pickup) fitted with a plow; snowmachine usually refers to a skidoo tracked personal vehicle. I am not sure there is a common word in american english for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.220.64.105 (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
The Russian vehicles are called snow loaders. There is a mention of them in the History section, but if I can find enough info, I can create a new section under equipment. Laïka 18:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot of different types of vinter service vehicles in Russia. Some used to male artificial ice in ski yards, some move snow from road to backside (using so-called "knives"), some load snow to trucks. There are also rail-based vehicles ti clear railways.--Dojarca (talk) 20:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See also section

I am trying to clean that up per WP:GTL. If those other items can be worked into the article great. Thanks, --Tom (talk) 16:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)ps, it looks like most were already linked above in the article.Thanks, --Tom (talk) 16:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other types

Besides the Russian one mentioned above, we are missing mentions of various graders and front loaders used for the same purpose. Rmhermen (talk) 17:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Graders are discussed under Snowplough, and there is also a passing mention of front loaders there. There was not information to spread this to an entire section though, unfortunately. Laïka 18:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Graders are only mentioned as an emergency option, not as a normal usage. Rmhermen (talk) 02:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How this became featured?

The article is too short and does not say even 1% of what should be covered.--Dojarca (talk) 20:43, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The article was vandalised about 15 minutes ago to remove most of the content (See the vandalism). I've restored what was lost. Laïka 20:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Dont these have diff names?71.111.254.5 (talk) 22:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recommend a source audit

I won't put the tag on the article out of the community respect for FAs. However, a lot of these citations seem to be a bit of a stretch, in some cases requiring an additional interpretation to reach the supported article text, even at a casual glance. I would recommend a serious look over the sourcing and its relation to the article text. Vassyana (talk) 10:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

My participation is very limited on Wikipedia at the moment and may continue to be for some time, so please understand my limited comments and lack of assistance in the task. Vassyana (talk) 10:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Problem sources: Ref 1a. The article reads:

“ A winter service vehicle (WSV), or snow removal vehicle, is used to clear thoroughfares of ice and snow. ”

The closest area in the source says:

“ In winter we keep our roads as clear of ice and snow as we can to help you get to your destination safely. You’ll see our salt spreaders and snow ploughs out on the roads whenever freezing temperatures are forecast. ”

Refs 2a, 2b, 2c and 3. I do not have a copy in local libraries, including university libraries (according to computerized index searches). However, both texts are about reviewing and implementing updated winter weather technology (a very specific context), but the article comments are general topic. That's somewhat troubling (a difficult to find source, general comments sourced to a speciality text).

Ref 4. The article reads:

“ Airports use winter service vehicles to keep runways and taxiways free of snow and ice, which, besides endangering aircraft takeoff and landing, can interfere with communication equipment. ”

The closest area in the source reads:

“ Using state-of-the-art clearing equipment, the Winter Service cleared the aircraft stands (245,000 m²), the runway (128,000 m²), the taxiways (77,700 m²) and roads (35,000 m²) of snow and ice, working to the principle of »push, sweep, then blow«. Up to seven snow blower/sweepers, one solo snow plough, two 320 hp snowblowers with a 30 m range, one gritter and a surface friction tester for measuring braking values were used on the runway and taxiways. ”

The source says nothing about communication equipment.

Ref 5a. No problem.

Ref 6a. Passable, but not great. The source could be better used.

Ref 6b. The source says nothing of the sort.

Ref 5b. The article claims:

“ Most farmers could simply replace their wagons with sleds, allowing the transport of heavy materials such as timber with relative ease. ”

The closest thing in the source reads:

“ A road surface of well-packed snow was a god-send to many farmers who were now able to transport heavy loads like timber and stones on sleds with comparative ease.

Sleds and sleighs were not the recreational items they are today, but the equivalent of the modern pick-up truck or four-wheel drive vehicle.

 ”

Ref 5c. No problem.

Ref 6c. The article reads:

“ The earliest patents for snowploughs date back to 1840, but there are no records of their actual use until 1862, when the city of Milwaukee began operating horse-drawn carts fitted with snowploughs. ”

The source states:

“ Enterprising inventors were issued the first patents for snow plows in the 1840s, but several years passed before the plow designs were put to use. One of the first mentions of snow plow use comes from Milwaukee in 1862. ”

Ref 6d. The article states:

“ The first motorised snowploughs were developed in 1913, based on truck and tractor bodies, while the Barber-Green snowloader, a precursor to the modern snow blower, was invented in 1920. These machines allowed the mechanisation of the snow clearing process, reducing the labour required for snow removal and increasing the speed and efficiency of the process ”

The source states:

“ Motorization swept the country with amazing speed in the early 20th century, leading to motorized dump trucks and plows as early as 1913. Many cities rushed to motorize their snow removal fleets, abandoning most of their horse-drawn carts. In conjunction with the new trucks, cities began to use Caterpillar tractors equipped with plow blades. To haul the snow away, they used steam shovels, cranes, and railway flatcars to get the snow off the streets and dumped into the rivers. In spite of the technological advances, manual shovelers also continued to be hired as part of the winter work force.

Another motorized invention, the Barber-Green snowloader, was successfully tried in Chicago in 1920, and several cities purchased snowloaders that same winter. The snowloader was an ingenious contraption. Riding on tractor treads, it was equipped with a giant scoop and a conveyor belt. As the snow was plowed, it was forced up the scoop, caught by the conveyor belt which carried it up and away from the street into a chute at the top where it was dropped into a dump truck parked underneath. It effectively made snow removal easier and more effective for the cities by making the process much less labor and time intensive.

 ”

Ref 6e. No problem.

Ref 6f. The article states:

“ With the popularisation of the motor car, it was found that ploughing alone was insufficient for removing all snow and ice from the roadway, leading to the development of gritting vehicles, which used sodium chloride to accelerate the melting of the snow. ”

The source relates:

“ Slick layers of ice left behind by snow plowing, renewed demands for salt and sand use. No longer concerned about protests, city public works officials used salt by the ton to ease road conditions, and also experimented with cinders and sand. Motorized salt spreaders became the primary tool in fighting snowy roads, and businesses and private citizens as well used tons of salt to keep driveways, sidewalks and access routes clear of snow and ice. However, several cities in the Great Lakes region were unable to use salt due to the extremely frigid weather that rendered salt almost ineffective. In any city, while salt works well on icy roads or minimal snowfall, it does little good against deep snow. ”

Ref 6g. The article claims:

“ Early attempts at gritting were resisted, as the salt used encouraged rusting, causing damage to the metal structures of bridges and the shoes of pedestrians. However, as the number of motoring accidents increased, the protests subsided and by 1925 many cities in the United States used salt and sand to clear the roads and increase road safety. ”

The sources states first (about the 1800s):

“ Salt was used in a few cities, but was strongly protested because it ruined the streets for sleighing and damaged the shoes and clothing of pedestrians. ”

And then significantly later (about the early 1900s):

“ t was in fact the popularity of the motorcar that would create a whole new set of problems for snow removal crews. By 1925, over seventeen million cars were registered, vastly increasing the demand for dry, safe streets. As motorcars took to the streets in force, public safety demanded snow removal efforts even for snowfalls less than four inches. Due to increased dependence on the automobile, not only main thoroughfares needed clearing, but residential streets as well. Scenic snowfalls once reminiscent of winter merrymaking became unbearable, and the freezing weather once welcomed by sleigh parties create hazardous driving conditions. Automobile accidents were rapidly rising due to weather-related conditions.

Slick layers of ice left behind by snow plowing, renewed demands for salt and sand use. No longer concerned about protests, city public works officials used salt by the ton to ease road conditions, and also experimented with cinders and sand.

 ”

Ref 6h. The article relates:

“ As environmental awareness increased through the 1960s and 1970s, gritting once again came under criticism due to its environmental impact, leading to the development of alternative de-icing chemicals and more efficient spreading systems. ”

The source says:

“ As snow removal efforts progressed, protests against salt renewed, supported both by environmentalists and motorists whose cars were being corroded by years of heavy winter salt use. Environmental experts discovered in the late 1960s that salt use was corroding cars, damaging roadside plant life, polluting water supplies (including drinking water supplies), and killing fish in streams. Motorists were weary of repairing car corrosion after each winter, and road crews were discovering that salt was corrosive to roads and bridges as well. Improved salt spreaders resulted from these finds, using more efficient spreading gauges. ”

Unfortunately, I do not have the time to audit further references. However, this covers the lede and the history section. If they are an indication of the overall article, it is indeed in poor health. It would be helpful if some people could correct the problematic statements in the article, replace problem sourcing for solid statements, try to replace references 2 and 3, and provide an audit accounting of the remaining sources. Vassyana (talk) 11:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for checking these sources. Many of them were ones that served the purpose once, but which I failed to update when rewriting the article. I've addressed the points as followed: 1) I've supplemented that source with one that actually uses. Defining "snow removal vehicle" is slightly harder but I added a Canadian Government source which classes all WSVs as types of snow removal vehicle. 2) and 3) (now called 4 and 5) were freely available on the web (I've added links) - they describe how snow removal is performed in different countries and are specifically used to source the phrase "Road maintenance agencies and contractors in temperate or polar areas". 4) (now 6) was a misreading on my part of control surfaces. I've clarified with a much better source from the FAA. 6b - sorry, that was something that slipped into the article unsourced. I've removed that. I see no problem with 5b; I've made 6c more general and removed claims that the Barber Green snowloader was a precursor to the snow blower (on rereading the source, they are talking about rotary snowplows as early snow blowers). I can't see any problem with the rest of the references cited, although in a couple of cases, I've replace specific years with more general decades. I think the history section is probably the worst sourced; few sources exist, and most that do (Snow in the Cities: A History of America's Urban Response is supposed to be a quite definitive book on the subject) I don't have access to. I've taken a couple of pieces out of the article that were only sourced incidentally (the source mentioned something in passing but didn't clarify). All the books I've used are available with limited previews from Google Books. I think I've picked out all the poor sources. Some of the sources do come from companies in the WSV sector, but since they are only used to reference vehicle specifications and usage (as opposed to whether one type is better than another), they shouldn't be introducing any bias. I've added a URL to the "Local Authority Plants and Vehicles Magazine" reference - unfortunately the magazine don't keep archives, but luckily another company has kept and publicly posted (with permission from the magazine) clippings, including the relevant article. Of the remaining references that seem less than 100%:
10: It's in German, but no English source exists, and the source is only used to verify a number.
31: It's a dictionary, but it is only used to verify that sander is the US English term for Gritter
35: Unfortunately, users have to pay extortionately to view British Standards, hence lack of a link, but the standard verifies that sea salt is poorly suited for gritting.
50: "Classic New Hampshire: Preserving the Granite State in Changing Times" doesn't sound immediately relevant to winter service vehicles, but it has a section where the author interviews the boss of a ski company about his use of snow groomers.
52: "Nature-Based Tourism, Environment, and Land Management." likewise sounds irrelevant, but one of the reports inside is about the effects of snow grooming on the environment.
62: "Providing Information to Pedestrians" talks about how best to remove snow from delicate pavement surfaces.
The article is looking a lot better than it was before (the adding of information was a bit piecemeal, so sources ended up being divorced from their context). Thanks! Laïka 13:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)