Talk:Winston Churchill in politics: 1900-1939

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[edit] Explanation and rationale

This is a spin off from the main Winston Churchill article. The concensus is that page is too long and to preserve the information there- and to expand it- subpages covering different facets and periods of his life needed to be created. See Winston's talk page Lord Harris has started one on Later life of Winston Churchill. This is another subpage.The foundation of the material here is from the original Churchill article to which I was a contributor.

Please add and modify.

I have deleted some matters which seemed off topic or of very marginal relevance such as

In 1910, Churchill commented to Asquith that The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate...I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed

Backnumber1662 (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Abdication Crisis

Darkfells deleted at the time Churchill was seen as an alternative leader. As Lord Beaverbrook wrote "he has emerged as a leader of a big armaments anti-German movement in politics, hostile to the Government".[1]. I want to revert this. my reasons for doing so are

  • its true, and its verifiable (appropriate source supplied)
  • it adds to a reader's understanding of Churchill, at that time many people distrusted Churchill. One reason was he was seen to be 'on the make' and here (as per quote from Alistair Cooke given in the article) he was seen as making a Kings party and using the Crisis to further his own ambition.
  • it further explains his isolation from the Conservative mainstream
  • it aids in understanding why the Commons was so anti Churchill when he tried to address it on the King's behalf

I wont revert till noon Sunday Eastern Australian time to give people time to commentBacknumber1662 (talk) 10:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[1] for the explanation. There's no need to revert, I've done that myself. — DarkFalls talk 10:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Review

As per User:Backnumber1662 request I have done a review of the article, with some suggestions for improvement. Firstly may I say well done on all you have done, your contributions have been substanative and excellent. Good work! As the article is long, I agree with your suggestion Backnumber that it should be split. My other suggestions are as follows:

  • Per WP:Lead Expand/rewrite the lead section. I think the lead section is mainly a list of Churchills positions. This is important to state but I also feel you could introduce more of his controversies during this period. The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, summarize the most important points, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describe its notable controversies, if there are any.
  • Expand the Entry into politics section - for example start the article with why Churchill went into politics, mention the impact of his father, of his friends of other MPs etc who encouraged him to stand. Also explain why was Churchills election not successful? Given the figure he was about to become, his early electoral failure is an interesting historical fact.
  • Expand the section on Churchills crossing the floor - what are historians views on thius subject, what did his contemporaries think, what were the major reasons for why he did this? Was it over tariffs or was it to do with helping the deserving poor?
  • Reference - Churchill had become one of the most prominent members of the Government outside the Cabinet
  • Why did Churchill loose his seat? Churchill lost his Manchester seat to the Conservative William Joynson-Hicks but was soon elected in another by-election at Dundee constituency.
  • Incorporate the following into prose: His direct achievements at the Board of Trade and later as Home Secretary were considerable:
   * Mines Act 1908, providing an 8 hour day in all mines.
   * Trades Boards Act 1909 which established the first minimum wage system in Britain mandating rates for both time- and piece-work for 200,000 workers in several industries. Churchill was able to get Conservative support for this and the Bill "passed without a division."[19]
   * Labour Exchanges Act 1909 setting up offices to help unemployed people find work.[20]
   * National Insurance Act 1911 providing sickness and unemployment benefits.[21]

This should be rewritten at prose and his impact on these acts could be expanded. Bullet points should be avoided.

  • Reference - He arranged for 50 London buses to be used to give extra mobility and the troops were used in general operations for a few weeks until the "Circus" was wound up.
  • Dardanelles- please reference and expand on The concept was flawed. I think this section could benefit from the opinions of historians, more on the reasons of why the campaing was termed as a failure etc.
  • Churchill was widely blamed for the fiasco. Examples of who blamed him, editorials/paper references etc?
  • Make the Indian Independence section more concise. Why a major and important aspect of his early political career it is given far too much weight. Try a rewrite, shorten some paragraphs, are the full quotes necessary or can they be summarised?
  • Reference - Churchill later sought to portray himself as an isolated voice warning of the need to rearm against Germany. Did he say this? Or have some historians?

My biggest criticism is that the article is somewhat messy, there are loads of full stops, commas where they shouldnt be. Also some sentances do not follow on to the next. I suggest you ask the league of copyeditors for help or get someone to go through the whole article to correct the grammar and structure. I have tried to remove some of the more obvious errors. The most important thing to remember is that where possible, references go at the end of the sentance, after the full stop.

However overall a very good article and very authorative. It is certainly well on its way to becoming a featured article. You have put a lot of effort in and it shows so again well done. If I can elaborate on any more of my points then please ask. Once you have responded to my suggestions, your next steps should be a peer review, GA review and finally an FA review. LordHarris 14:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] motivation

I noticed a comment that one of the resons he became a liberal was to obtain a salary as a minister. There's a ref, so presumably it does support this. However, as it is written now, it rather suggests this was his only reason for doing so. At least one biographer didn't mention such a reason (money), but instead gave various political explanations. Both this and the (i think originating) article, Winston Churchill, allude from time to time to his doing things for money. While he certainly needed money, I do not think, and I don't think the biographers think, this was ever his main motivation for anything. There was one example I read where he turned down a ministerial post in favour of another with half the pay but which suited his interests better. My inclination would be to expand on the reasons for his change of party, and drop the suggestion he did it for money entirely. User:Sandpiper

[edit] machine guns

the article states that Churchill suggested machine guns be used on striking miners. Hmm. Anyone got a ref for this, or should I delete it? I have seen some mention on the net about machine guns being installed at coal pits, but that is hardly what is implied by the wording here. Sandpiper (talk) 22:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Harris's review

Per WP:Lead Expand/rewrite the lead section. I think the lead section is mainly a list of Churchills positions. This is important to state but I also feel you could introduce more of his controversies during this period. The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, summarize the most important points, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describe its notable controversies, if there are any.

I'll leave this to last, if we have 2 sections then each will need their ownBacknumber1662 (talk) 02:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Expand the Entry into politics section - for example start the article with why Churchill went into politics, mention the impact of his father, of his friends of other MPs etc who encouraged him to stand. Also explain why was Churchills election not successful? Given the figure he was about to become, his early electoral failure is an interesting historical fact.
Partly done, Backnumber1662 (talk) 02:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Expand the section on Churchills crossing the floor - what are historians views on thius subject, what did his contemporaries think, what were the major reasons for why he did this? Was it over tariffs or was it to do with helping the deserving poor?
Done
  • Reference - Churchill had become one of the most prominent members of the Government outside the Cabinet
  • Why did Churchill loose his seat? Churchill lost his Manchester seat to the Conservative William Joynson-Hicks but was soon elected in another by-election at Dundee constituency.
Done Backnumber1662 (talk) 02:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)